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 Topic: The Story of Sulayman

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #60 - February 07, 2010, 09:03 PM

    I'd say they are all good debunker, and this one was good too  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #61 - February 07, 2010, 09:03 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2010, 08:56 PM
    By the way, I enjoyed your other videos more... somehow, your strongly Charismatic personality was missing in that video (I really think the reason why your videos are effective has a LOT to do with your charisma).

    I am very surprised to hear that you enjoy Hassans videos - you are amongst few of your muslim breathren and its very open-minded of you.  I must admit on the other side of the fence, that I struggle to enjoy any videos that are pro-Islam or any other religion for that matter.  Perhaps you can explain how you can enjoy videos that oppose values you hold dear and are vehemently against?

    Open-mindedness is a great quality, it'll stand you in good stead and one I am trying harder to learn.  Good for you  Afro

    @Hassan - do you often get any praise by muslims for your videos?
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #62 - February 07, 2010, 09:04 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 07, 2010, 09:00 PM
    Maybe you missed this from my last post as I was editing it:

    لَأُعَذِّبَنَّهُ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا أَوْ لَأَذْبَحَنَّهُ

    "I will surely torture him with a severe torture or I will slaughter him!"

    It doesn't just use the word "Athaab" but also the verb "Aththaba" which definitely means torture! PLUS it says Shadid (Severe) PLUS it says Uathibahannahu - I will slit his throat!

    Be honest - doesn't that sound just a little crazy?


    these were threats in front of an army that included defiant demons... no. I don't think it was crazy.. if it was reported that he *actually* tortured a little bird or killed it then that would have been really crazy.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #63 - February 07, 2010, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 07, 2010, 09:03 PM
    I am very surprised to hear that you enjoy Hassans videos - you are amongst few of your muslim breathren and its very open-minded of you.  I must admit on the other side of the fence, that I struggle to enjoy any videos that are pro-Islam or any other religion for that matter.  Perhaps you can explain how you can enjoy videos that oppose values you hold dear and are vehemently against?

    Open-mindedness is a great quality, it'll stand you in good stead and one I am trying harder to learn.  Good for you  Afro

    @Hassan - do you often get any praise by muslims for your videos?


    Because honesty was POURING from his face, his heart and his voice.. that's why it was enjoyable and very lovely.

    Regardless of whether I think he was wrong or not, the human factor in these videos was amazing! Like I said.. it's mainly his charisma as far as I'm concerned.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #64 - February 07, 2010, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 07, 2010, 09:03 PM
    @Hassan - do you often get any praise by muslims for your videos?


    Actually yes I do get some very nice PMs from Muslims - mostly praying for me to be guided, which I appreciate for their good intention.

    I like to think it is because I genuinely do empathise with Muslims and sincerely do not have any ill-feeling towards them. I generally try to critique Islam and not Muslims.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #65 - February 07, 2010, 09:19 PM
    Since we are discussing miracles - I just saw this video and thought I'd post it here. It's our good friend - and Sufi Muslim - The Tailor, on my favourite Sunday Morning program "The Big Question". He is the young man wearing glasses sitting in the front and speaks at 6 mins in. (EDIT - the Tailor seems to have inserted some images into that vid?Huh?)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWqy94OQrnI


  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #66 - February 07, 2010, 09:33 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 07, 2010, 09:11 PM
    Actually yes I do get some very nice PMs from Muslims - mostly praying for me to be guided, which I appreciate for their good intention.

    I like to think it is because I genuinely do empathise with Muslims and sincerely do not have any ill-feeling towards them. I generally try to critique Islam and not Muslims.


    this is a comment i just saw for example (and it shows the fear of hell underlies a great many ppls faith):

    Inna Allah Yahdi man Yasha'

    Subhan Allah wa la Ilaha Illa Allah

    guys, you really have NO idea what's waiting for you Insha Allah
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #67 - February 07, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Quote
    (EDIT - the Tailor seems to have inserted some images into that vid?)


    He's put subliminal flashing messages and science diagrams in it  Grin
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #68 - February 07, 2010, 09:58 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 07, 2010, 09:11 PM
    I like to think it is because I genuinely do empathise with Muslims and sincerely do not have any ill-feeling towards them. I generally try to critique Islam and not Muslims.

    Yep, I'd agree - I think they are pleasantly surprised how respectfully you disagree, particularly after all the muslim bashing that goes on on youtube.
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #69 - February 07, 2010, 10:00 PM
    There is also a weird diagram at 7:34
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #70 - February 07, 2010, 10:27 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 07, 2010, 08:49 PM
    The fact is my fear of Hell is so great I almost want to believe that the Quran is a LIE!

    What I'm saying is: my fear of Hell is a motivation for me to reject Islam rather than accept it... it's so horrible a nightmare I just want to believe it's a LIE.


    These are my feelings as well. However I do beleive in God and I beleive He is the God described in the Quran. My faith rests on acknowledging the fact that we have a poor understanding of God and his actions and acknowledging the fact that He is the all-knowing all-wise.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #71 - February 07, 2010, 10:32 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 07, 2010, 10:27 PM
    These are my feelings as well. However I do beleive in God and I beleive He is the God described in the Quran. My faith rests on acknowledging the fact that we have a poor understanding of God and his actions and acknowledging the fact that He is the all-knowing all-wise.


    You have poor knowledge of god's actions yet "know" he's all knowing and all wise??  Huh?

    Maybe your knowledge about God is so poor that you can't see the reality that he doesn't actually exist!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #72 - February 07, 2010, 10:38 PM
    ''You have poor knowledge of god's actions yet "know" he's all knowing and all wise??''

    Yes because I believe He created the entire universe and every living being in it.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #73 - February 07, 2010, 11:37 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 07, 2010, 10:38 PM
    ''You have poor knowledge of god's actions yet "know" he's all knowing and all wise??''

    Yes because I believe He created the entire universe and every living being in it.

    He could do that and still be a jerk.
    The only way I could square god creating us with the fact he is all-powerful, all-knowing (meaning he doesn't need creation), is by believing that he was bored and decided to conduct an experiment. Because assuming he created us because he somehow loves us would mean he would do a much better job than a very fragile being who could suffer his entire life from cancer, have a birth defect that would hinder his ability to sustain himself normally, or the countless disasters on the earth that are causing people to suffer all around the world. That is not what an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise god would do, unless he is a prick.
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #74 - February 08, 2010, 08:19 AM
    Why have you projected "human" intelligence onto the animals debunker?  I mean nowhere gives mention of them gaining human intelligence and yet you have projected what you consider a superior intelligence onto them as the only plausible way they could have communicated to another human.


    I read fantasy, and when it says the wizard spoke to the animals and they spoke back, I've never once needed to project my own species intelligence into the scene to accept it.  The wizard is obviously species-lingual (new word lol) and animals are intelligent in their own way so why does anyone need an upgrade?

    Odd.  Wink
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #75 - February 08, 2010, 08:30 AM
    The only reason to believe in this is because of eternal hell and indoctrination. This is like some creation story from a Siberian.

    And the Lord Mammoth lifted up the World with His might Tusks. And blew cold breath onto the landscape and turned into it snow. He saw that it was good.

    Jokes aside, Siberian do have a creation myth involving a Mammoth. But I'm sure they see that as a nice story and not as the actual fucking physcial truth. I guess they don't have no hell keeping them in check.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #76 - February 08, 2010, 09:51 AM
     Afro
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #77 - February 08, 2010, 09:55 AM
    I'm still scared of hell though  Cry  wacko

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #78 - February 08, 2010, 10:20 AM
    and so you should be, you'll be fried like eggs in the morning when you get there..
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #79 - February 08, 2010, 10:30 AM
    lol
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #80 - February 08, 2010, 11:00 AM
    @ Berbs

    Quote
    Why have you projected "human" intelligence onto the animals debunker?  I mean nowhere gives mention of them gaining human intelligence and yet you have projected what you consider a superior intelligence onto them as the only plausible way they could have communicated to another human.

    I read fantasy, and when it says the wizard spoke to the animals and they spoke back, I've never once needed to project my own species intelligence into the scene to accept it.  The wizard is obviously species-lingual (new word lol) and animals are intelligent in their own way so why does anyone need an upgrade?

    Odd.

     

    A hoopoe bird who understands what a queen is and how great her throne was and understands that she and her subjects worshipped the sun, can only have human intelligence.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #81 - February 08, 2010, 11:15 AM
    Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 11:00 AM
    @ Berbs
     
    A hoopoe bird who understands what a queen is and how great her throne was and understands that she and her subjects worshipped the sun, can only have human intelligence.

    Debunker - call me sceptical, but please read how you just replied to Berbs and tell me if it sounds ok to you?
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #82 - February 08, 2010, 11:40 AM
    Infidel: ''He could do that and still be a jerk.''

    Not really. Since the moral feelings you are using to conclude God is unjust/cruel or whatever come from God himself - He gave you the capbility and the knowledge to feel emotions of kindess and mercy. As a beleiver I of course believe that our knowledge of God is extremely limited and therefore it would perhaps be a bit foolish to try and judge Him.


    BD: ''The only reason to believe in this is because of eternal hell and indoctrination.''

    Actually I wasn't very religous when I was younger and my parents didn't really teach me too much about Islam - the only story I knew from the Quran was perhaps the Adam and Eve one. When I was 18 I became an atheist because I felt that hell was too cruel a place to send people no matter what most of them had done. It was only when I was 20 - when I first read the Quran - that my faith became strong - the Quran made me feel a strong connection to God.

    I know a lot of Muslims who became faithful later on in life like myself - I don't think the fear of hell/indoctrination thing stacks up. In fact I think for a lot of people eternal hell would be a reason not to beleive in God (as was the case for me when I was younger).

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #83 - February 08, 2010, 11:52 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 08, 2010, 11:40 AM
    Infidel: ''He could do that and still be a jerk.''

    Not really. Since the moral feelings you are using to conclude God is unjust/cruel or whatever come from God himself - He gave you the capbility and the knowledge to feel emotions of kindess and mercy. As a beleiver I of course believe that our knowledge of God is extremely limited and therefore it would perhaps be a bit foolish to try and judge Him.


    BD: ''The only reason to believe in this is because of eternal hell and indoctrination.''

    Actually I wasn't very religous when I was younger and my parents didn't really teach me too much about Islam - the only story I knew from the Quran was perhaps the Adam and Eve one. When I was 18 I became an atheist because I felt that hell was too cruel a place to send people no matter what most of them had done. It was only when I was 20 - when I first read the Quran - that my faith became strong - the Quran made me feel a strong connection to God.

    I know a lot of Muslims who became faithful later on in life like myself - I don't think the fear of hell/indoctrination thing stacks up. In fact I think for a lot of people eternal hell would be a reason not to beleive in God (as was the case for me when I was younger).





    No, you just get alot of them functioning on pascal's wager, better to believe just incase, than to lose if it turns out to be untrue.  Hedging your bets so to speak.  So maybe no sweating night terrors in fear, but still, just incase........... Wink
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #84 - February 08, 2010, 11:55 AM
    Yupp, it's the if you (atheist) are right then we have nothing to lose, but if I (muslim) am right then you have everything to lose.

    So God is bascially forcing you to believe, cowering in fear. Love me, worship me, believe in me. Or burn in hell. All of this in a book documentated 1400 years ago, based on a man that from nowhere said he recieved a revelation from an Angel. 

    That is the basic premise of Islam.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #85 - February 08, 2010, 11:58 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 08, 2010, 11:15 AM
    Debunker - call me sceptical, but please read how you just replied to Berbs and tell me if it sounds ok to you?


    I know you don't believe in the supernatural.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #86 - February 08, 2010, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on February 08, 2010, 11:52 AM

    No, you just get alot of them functioning on pascal's wager, better to believe just incase, than to lose if it turns out to be untrue.  Hedging your bets so to speak.  So maybe no sweating night terrors in fear, but still, just incase........... Wink


    Pascal's wager is meaningless... there's no just in case with God... what if Christianity IS the true religion? So holding to Islam does NOT guarantee salvation, just in case, according to Pascal's wager because Christianity, for example, promises Hell for those who reject Jesus as a savior and if Christianity is right then I'm screwed!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #87 - February 08, 2010, 12:07 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 08, 2010, 11:40 AM
    Actually I wasn't very religous when I was younger and my parents didn't really teach me too much about Islam - the only story I knew from the Quran was perhaps the Adam and Eve one. When I was 18 I became an atheist because I felt that hell was too cruel a place to send people no matter what most of them had done. It was only when I was 20 - when I first read the Quran - that my faith became strong - the Quran made me feel a strong connection to God.

    The opposite was true for me, when I read the Quran I found the cognitive dissonance that ensued just became too much to bear.  Its just appeared to be so obviously man-made, and tbh with a bit of time, I thought I could have done a much better job.

    I could not equate this divine superpower that was claimed to have created the universe and everything in it from scratch, to have authored it.

    Now Ive gone one step further and cant even understand why he would use a literary medium to convey his message.

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #88 - February 08, 2010, 12:09 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 11:58 AM
    I know you don't believe in the supernatural.

    I know, that why I posited the question to you.  I just wanted you to re-read what you had written and hear your honest opinion.
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #89 - February 08, 2010, 02:59 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 11:58 AM
    I know you don't believe in the supernatural.


    You say you believe in the supernatural yet you also seem keen to try and explain things in a logical or rational manner when it suits you? So I'm just a little curious why?

    For example you find the fact that birds and ants can talk, think and behave like humans, acceptable. Yet they don't possess the vocal chords or brain size etc...? Which means that this is an example of a supernatural event that defies the laws of nature - something that God just made happen.

    Yet you felt the need to try and explain Sulayman's death in a rational and logical way that did not defy the laws of nature?

    btw you asked where did I get the horse from - that is from tafseer as the Jinn saw him watching them as they were working and so it can be inferred that he would be outside - and as a king, he would not be standing watching them, but would be on a horse as befits a king - all logical - and all related in tafseer. I'm curious where you got chair from? I thought you liked to stick to the text? Or do you infer things when it suits you and reject others inference when it suits you? Aren't you being inconsistent? Also, sitting on a chair would suggest he was inside and that seems illogical if he was watching the Jinn? Unless perhaps he was watching the "House" Jinn doing stuff like sweeping and odd jobs like fixing the plumbing. If you are not going to include horse then you cannot include chair. It seems the only reason you do is that you want to explain it in a logical or rational way. If we are to stick to the text then we can only say for certain that he was leaning - dead - on this stick for days - at the very least - some tafseers say a year! Doesn't that sound very weird? And I mean weird as in defies the laws of gravity etc...

    So why is it you are not happy to accept that as a supernatural event yet accept others as supernatural?
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