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 Topic: The Story of Sulayman

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #480 - February 24, 2010, 11:02 PM

    Of course I agree (by the way, I don't agree the "Sarh" mentioned in the verse refers to Solomon's palace.. it refers to the Queens palace/throne moved to Palestine, but yeah, Solomon must have great many buildings for himself).

    Yes, I agree... I would think Jerusalem was a Jewel during Solmon's rule.... Hmmm? Why do I detect a desire from you to make me dance the *speculative* dance with you again? Smiley


    lol... no don't worry I'm going to bed now - just wanted to reiterate the point that the fact there would be no trace of all this highly unlikely - to say the least - and it is as if it did indeed all just vanish into thin air. (Which I realise is what you believe.)

    OK - nighty night Smiley
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #481 - February 24, 2010, 11:08 PM

    Quote
    Zamakhsahri used to argue that everything in the Qur'an is worded in such a way for a reason. Would you agree?

     

    I agree.

    Quote
    Or would you say that words are interchanged for no apparent reason?


    Sometimes, because the word chosen flows better with the surrouning words (like using Tara'ib instead of two legs)
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8704.msg216970#msg216970

    and sometimes the reason is not clear beyond avoiding using the same word repititively.... for example, the word Throne and Chair are used interchangeably in the Quran... it's a bit too monotonic to use the same word repititvely.

    Quote
    What reason would God have for using Jinn instead of Shayaateen.


    Again, I can't see any reason beyond avoiding using the word Shayatin repititively.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #482 - February 25, 2010, 07:11 PM

    ''But this is not meaningless speculation - we are trying to find out what the Qur'an means. Or are you suggesting parts of the Qur'an don't mean anything?  Or their meaning cannot be understood?''

    It is apparent that God just wants us to understand the jist of the story - that is probably why it is very limited in detail. Of course that hasn't stopped Muslims from trying to fill in the details for themselves. I on the other hand am content with the actual words that God provides in the Quran.



    ''Tell me honestly, doesn't it sound like the Jinn had been toiling a lot longer than a few hours? After all that is what makes this whole verse extraordinary. It is within the realms of possibility that one might not notice a dead person for a few hours - that has happened many times. There is nothing extraordinary about that. No-one would question themselves: "If only we knew the unseen."


    Tbh I never ever read any hadith or tafsir reagrding this story and when I first read the verse in the Quran I didn't know what to make of a 'long time' - but for me certainly it could mean a few hours. If we take the story in it's most popular interpretation, Solomon was constantly watching the Jinn at work - even if they stopped working for a minute, Solomon would have noticed - so yes a few hours would have seemed like a long time (PS of course I only gave a ferret as an example of a creature that lives in the ground - I don't know actually what earthly creature was eating away at the stick)

    You are making the assumption that it was meant to be an extraordinary part of the story and that the moral of the story was that God could then say: ''Haha - I fooled you!!''. But perhaps it was just a way of saying to the Arab audience at the time that only God is the knower of the unseen in a way that the Arab audience back then would have appreciated.



    ''Tell me truthfully do you reject the idea of an insect eating the stick in a few days (or more) because you find it unsupported by the text of the Qur'an - or because you personally find it a bit silly?''

    A bit of both.


    ''Also tell me honestly do you find the idea of a ferret eating it in a few hours better supported by the text of the Qur'an - or is it because that might make more sense to you?''

    I honestly don't think the words of Quran supports my version of what might have happenned or your interpretation of what might have happened anymore than the other.


    ''Is it really the text that you follow or what makes more sense to you, Abu Yunus?''

    I follow the text but obviously we have to use our inteligence to figure out what the text is saying. I try and avoid inferences when I can, whether they are my own inferences and especially if they are the inferences of someone else.


    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #483 - February 25, 2010, 08:43 PM

    I follow the text but obviously we have to use our inteligence to figure out what the text is saying. I try and avoid inferences when I can, whether they are my own inferences and especially if they are the inferences of someone else.

    But you are forever making inferences, you just dont see it.  You make inferences when you are defending the quran, you make inferences to justify a nicer stance from the quran, but suddenly making inferences is wrong when it works against you.

    This approach is not reliable, as it enables you to believe in the Bible, the Vedas, and Hansel & Gretal.  You can only have one approach, you pick, but it must remain consistent throughout.  And you are left to judge you are doing it fairly.

    Just wondering, do you yourself think you do it fairly, or do you accept you apply a degree of personal bias in order to make sure you dont sway from it?  I honestly dont have a clue where you stand on this question (same question goes to Debunker btw)

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #484 - February 25, 2010, 09:35 PM

    But you are forever making inferences, you just dont see it.  You make inferences when you are defending the quran, you make inferences to justify a nicer stance from the quran, but suddenly making inferences is wrong when it works against you.


    What IsLame said here is spot on, Abu Yunus.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #485 - February 25, 2010, 10:01 PM

    I do accept that I myself make inferences from time to time - that's why I said I try and avoid making inferences when I can. When I do make inferences however I always try to make them based on other verses of the Quran. For example regarding the ever-controversial 4:34, my inference is that any hitting should be light and can only be used in extreme circumstances. This inference is based on a verse that occurs 15 verses earlier:

    ''You who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit women against their will, nor should you treat your wives harshly, hoping to take back some of the bride-gift you gave them, unless they are guilty of something clearly outrageous. Live with them in accordance with what is fair and kind: if you dislike them, it may well be that you dislike something in which God has put much good.''
    4:19

    I honestly feel that any reasonable Muslim taking into account the two verses would reach the same conclusion as myself.

    In any case though, I wasn't telling Hassan to stop making inferences - I just wanted him to fully recognise the fact that he was making inferences.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #486 - February 25, 2010, 10:13 PM

    Was Hassan making inferences? You mean because he used hadith and tafsir?

    And I respect you Abu for admitting to making an inference in that case. Cause that clearly is. Those verses are not related.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #487 - February 25, 2010, 10:25 PM

    I do accept that I myself make inferences from time to time - that's why I said I try and avoid making inferences when I can. When I do make inferences however I always try to make them based on other verses of the Quran. For example regarding the ever-controversial 4:34, my inference is that any hitting should be light and can only be used in extreme circumstances. This inference is based on a verse that occurs 15 verses earlier:

    ''You who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit women against their will, nor should you treat your wives harshly, hoping to take back some of the bride-gift you gave them, unless they are guilty of something clearly outrageous. Live with them in accordance with what is fair and kind: if you dislike them, it may well be that you dislike something in which God has put much good.''
    4:19

    I honestly feel that any reasonable Muslim taking into account the two verses would reach the same conclusion as myself.

    In any case though, I wasn't telling Hassan to stop making inferences - I just wanted him to fully recognise the fact that he was making inferences.


    Not sure why you are bringing 4:34 into it - for the record a light beating does not cut much mustard with me, its physical violence, full stop.   

    My question was a general question about whether you believe you are consistent in your approach to Islam and whether you feel inferences you make are biased. Yes/No

    Also whilst I have got you answering a few of my questions, thought I would try my luck and ask if you believe a supreme omnipotent & omnicient creator could have done a better job than the Quran? Yes/No Same question again to Debunker.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #488 - February 25, 2010, 10:32 PM

    Also its time you guys upped the anti, and started finding flaws in our beliefs.  That way you can guage and/or challenge the assumption that we make about which stance is more robust.

    Particularly Debunker who's username was presumably chosen for this purpose, if not it should be changed to Defender  hiding

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #489 - February 25, 2010, 10:59 PM

    ''My question was a general question about whether you believe you are consistent in your approach to Islam and whether you feel inferences you make are biased. Yes/No''

    Yes my inferences probably are biased towards a 'good God' rather than an 'evil God'.


    ''Also whilst I have got you answering a few of my questions, thought I would try my luck and ask if you believe a supreme omnipotent & omnicient creator could have done a better job than the Quran? Yes/No''

    Yes, it's perhaps possible that the Quran could have been written in a way that made more sense to people reading it today. But it's possible that the Quran was revealed in a way so that the Arab audience 1400 years ago could easily understand it and find it beautiful - this seemed to have been extremely successful as most Arabs at the time who heard the words of the Quran became Muslims.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #490 - February 25, 2010, 11:00 PM

    Thanks, I appreciate your honesty, I really do. 

    DB's turn I believe  whistling2

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #491 - February 25, 2010, 11:13 PM

    ''My question was a general question about whether you believe you are consistent in your approach to Islam and whether you feel inferences you make are biased. Yes/No''

    Yes my inferences probably are biased towards a 'good God' rather than an 'evil God'

    Just noticed you answered a different question, you answered the question about inferences about God and his attributes, I was asking the question about your specific belief system. 

    Are you consistent in your complete approach to Islam Yes/No
    Do you feel the inferences you draw are biased towards assuming Islam is divinely inspired Yes/No

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #492 - February 25, 2010, 11:32 PM

    In any case though, I wasn't telling Hassan to stop making inferences - I just wanted him to fully recognise the fact that he was making inferences.


    I was mostly relating the story as it has been traditionally understood.

    The view that he was leaning on a stick dead for at least a few days and an insect ate it - for example - has nothing to do with me.

    That's the traditional understanding.

    And I can see quite clearly why they say that when I read the text as that is what it seems to be saying to me too!

    You on the other hand are making inferences based pretty much on your whim - apparently because you find the traditional story a bit silly.

    God just wants us to understand the jist of the story


    I'd be interested to hear what the jist of this part about a creature eating his stick and him falling down and the jinn saying if only they knew the unseen... - is?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #493 - February 25, 2010, 11:39 PM

    I'd be interested to hear what the jist of this part about a creature eating his stick and him falling down and the jinn saying if only they knew the unseen... - is?


    Islam is  hilarious.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #494 - February 26, 2010, 11:25 AM

    You on the other hand are making inferences based pretty much on your whim - apparently because you find the traditional story a bit silly.


    Yes and I don't see anything wrong in that. Traditional veiwpoints often have cultural roots. I've never wanted to have anything to do with culture/tradition ever since I was a kid. However I of course beleive the Quran is divinely inspired and in my personal opinion it's up to us as individuals to interpret it the best we can.


    I'd be interested to hear what the jist of this part about a creature eating his stick and him falling down and the jinn saying if only they knew the unseen... - is?

    I beleive the jist of the story is the following:

    ''But when We decreed death for him, naught showed them his death but a creature of the earth that ate away his staff; and when he fell down, the jinn came to know plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in abasing torment.''

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #495 - February 26, 2010, 11:30 AM

    I beleive the jist of the story is the following:

    ''But when We decreed death for him, naught showed them his death but a creature of the earth that ate away his staff; and when he fell down, the jinn came to know plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in abasing torment.''


    I mean what is the lesson? Why is this story related? What do we gain from this story?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #496 - February 26, 2010, 11:38 AM

    Just noticed you answered a different question, you answered the question about inferences about God and his attributes, I was asking the question about your specific belief system.  

    Are you consistent in your complete approach to Islam Yes/No
    Do you feel the inferences you draw are biased towards assuming Islam is divinely inspired Yes/No



    I think I made a post a couple of weeks earlier that sates my position:

    ''I may have mentioned it once or twice but whenever I take a look around me I see amazing beauty and elegance and I can't help but think there is an intelligent designer behind nature. I therefore can not deny and beleive there is a God that created the Universe. I don't think I could ignore this even if I tried. I also beleive there is a lot of good within us humans. I don't beleive that being able to be conscious of God evolved by accident within us - I beleive God gave us this consciousness. I also beleive that if God did create us and gave us our consciousness He must care about us. Since He is the creator af all things I believe Him to be a just God. On this earth there is a lot of injustice. I have two choices - either beleive that God doesn't care about these injustices or I beleive God does care about these injustices and one day He will put things right. I feel it would make much more sense to  beleive God will judge us after we die since otherwise it would make him a God who doesn't care about justice - this to me is impossible. In my opinion from a couple of verses from the Quran this might be enough to make me a Muslim (i.e. a submitter to God's will) although I know a lot of scholars would argue otherwise:


    ''Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.''

    2:62

    ''Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.''

    5:69


    Rather than beleive that God would leave us wondering totally in the dark, I beleive he would make us aware of this fact (i.e. that everyone will be judged one day) hence I beleive this necessitates revelation.

    In my opinion the Quran matches most closely the idea I have of God. However there are things in the Quran that to me seem wrong. For example the fact that some people will burn in hell for disbelief (although I do not beleive all athesits will go to hell 4:48, 4:116) and of course verse 4:34. However do I accuse God of being wrong or do I accept that my logic is flawed? Since I beleive God created me I have no choice but to go with the latter option.

    I do not know if the Quran truly is the word of God. But I have faith that it is. I do not beleive the likes of Muhammad, Moses and Jesus were lying to us or that they were hallucinating etc. I beleive they were honourable men. Therefore the revelations I feel musts exist, I beleive were revealed through these honourable men. In the present day the Quran appears to me the only non-corrupted scripture that could possibly be the word of God. I therefore live my life by this scripture.''




    I guess this means that yes some inferences that I draw are biased toword assuming Islam is divinely inspired. I honestly do try and be as consistent and as critical as possible regarding my approach toward Islam. I have questioned whether Islam is indeed divinely inspired many times before - my faith was quite weak on a couple of occasions at least. I'm not pretending that it's plain sailing and that everything makes sense to me. But I do have faith in the God of the Quran and do feel a personal connection to Him  - and I can not ignore this.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #497 - February 26, 2010, 11:40 AM

    I mean what is the lesson? Why is this story related? What do we gain from this story?


    I think I made the point earlier:

    You are making the assumption that it was meant to be an extraordinary part of the story and that the moral of the story was that God could then say: ''Haha - I fooled you!!''. But perhaps it was just a way of saying to the Arab audience at the time that only God is the knower of the unseen in a way that the Arab audience back then would have appreciated.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #498 - February 26, 2010, 11:55 AM

    I think I made the point earlier:

    You are making the assumption that it was meant to be an extraordinary part of the story and that the moral of the story was that God could then say: ''Haha - I fooled you!!''. But perhaps it was just a way of saying to the Arab audience at the time that only God is the knower of the unseen in a way that the Arab audience back then would have appreciated.



    And do you think because Sulayman had died a few hours earlier, but the Jinn didn't know, that was a good way to make that point?
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #499 - February 26, 2010, 12:10 PM

    Also its time you guys upped the anti, and started finding flaws in our beliefs.  That way you can guage and/or challenge the assumption that we make about which stance is more robust.



    I don't have much interest in challenging the beleifs of you guys I just find it quite fun to hang with you guys sometimes on here. However there are a couple of things I don't fully understand regarding the agnostic standpoint and would like to get your veiws - I'd particularly be interested in getting the veiws of Hassan since I like him so much (although not as much as debunker who seems to be a bit gay for him).

    The agnostic position is of course that we do not know if God exists. But let's just assume for a second that He does exist and that He did indeed create the universe and did create us. Since He is the creator of all things, He is responsible for our creation no matter how we came about (i.e. via evolution or whatever). We humans commit acts of attrocity towards each other (i.e. Hitler, parents that abuse/kill their children etc.). Would this God:

    a) not care about these injustices and hence be a God that does not care about justice. Humans are a bunch of people whom He does not care for and He was just conducting an experiment for His own ammusement no matter how much pain and suffering they went through. Therefore there is no need for an afterlife or a 'day of judgment'.

    b) would this God in fact care about us and indeed make all the pain and suffering worthwile, and one day put all the injustices right i.e. He is a just God

    If any of us have chosen option b, then it must necessitate some system of reward and punishment after we die. Therefore do you guys beleive in a punishment/reward system after we die (assuming God does exist)?


    This is the problem I have with the agnostic standpoint on this particular issue - if a God does indeed exist He seems to at least have the basic characteristics of a God that a lot of religions describe i.e. a God that is likely to judge us after we die - in my opinion at least. On this issue Atheism makes much more sense since it leaves no place for an unjust God (although I do find Atheism a bit silly for other reasons).

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #500 - February 26, 2010, 12:14 PM

    And do you think because Sulayman had died a few hours earlier, but the Jinn didn't know, that was a good way to make that point?


    Maybe it captivated the Arab audience 1400 years ago

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #501 - February 26, 2010, 12:22 PM

    Maybe it captivated the Arab audience 1400 years ago


    In my opinion, quite the opposite. From my reading of those times they were impressed by extraordinary events.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #502 - February 26, 2010, 12:26 PM

    ''In my opinion, quite the opposite. From my reading of those times they were impressed by extraordinary events.''

    I don't think the Arabs back then were as dumb and barbaric as a lot of people tend to assume they were.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #503 - February 26, 2010, 12:28 PM

    ''In my opinion, quite the opposite. From my reading of those times they were impressed by extraordinary events.''

    I don't think the Arabs back then were as dumb and barbaric as a lot of people tend to assume they were.


    I didn't say they were dumb or barbaric - I said they were impressed by extraordinary events.

    Come to think of it so are we today. (It's just that most of us are not so willing to believe them as they were then.)

    A few hours of not knowing someone is dead would astonish no-one - imho of course.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #504 - February 26, 2010, 01:37 PM


    I don't have much interest in challenging the beleifs of you guys I just find it quite fun to hang with you guys sometimes on here. However there are a couple of things I don't fully understand regarding the agnostic standpoint and would like to get your veiws - I'd particularly be interested in getting the veiws of Hassan since I like him so much (although not as much as debunker who seems to be a bit gay for him).

    The agnostic position is of course that we do not know if God exists. But let's just assume for a second that He does exist and that He did indeed create the universe and did create us. Since He is the creator of all things, He is responsible for our creation no matter how we came about (i.e. via evolution or whatever). We humans commit acts of attrocity towards each other (i.e. Hitler, parents that abuse/kill their children etc.). Would this God:

    a) not care about these injustices and hence be a God that does not care about justice. Humans are a bunch of people whom He does not care for and He was just conducting an experiment for His own ammusement no matter how much pain and suffering they went through. Therefore there is no need for an afterlife or a 'day of judgment'.

    b) would this God in fact care about us and indeed make all the pain and suffering worthwile, and one day put all the injustices right i.e. He is a just God

    If any of us have chosen option b, then it must necessitate some system of reward and punishment after we die. Therefore do you guys beleive in a punishment/reward system after we die (assuming God does exist)?


    This is the problem I have with the agnostic standpoint on this particular issue - if a God does indeed exist He seems to at least have the basic characteristics of a God that a lot of religions describe i.e. a God that is likely to judge us after we die - in my opinion at least. On this issue Atheism makes much more sense (although I do find Atheism a bit silly for other reasons).


    Hello Abu

    If we assume that there's a god. And that "He is the creator of all things, He is responsible for our creation no matter how we came about (i.e. via evolution or whatever)". Is this god a (a) or a (b) god? We will forget about the whole debate about omniscience and free will and assume that this god knows everything anyhow every single human are 100 % responsible for his or hers acts... from the age of ?? 10?, 20? Hmm it's a tricky matter.

     Let's forget about this problem and the fact that there's many different people who are suffering from different versions of deviating mental problems (fx people with turrets, a disability to feel empathy towards others, people with different agerelated setbacks and so forth). Let's assume there's some barrier between the age 17 and the age 18 when every human being becomes fully developed and therefore should be liable for it's actions ( or should be lower? The male human brain is not fully developed well into the twenties, but should this be an excuse not to behave properly).

    So every human above the age-barrier of 17 are 100 % responsible for his or hers acts. Some of them commit injustice. An example of this could of course be the injustice Adolf Hitler commited. Now would a god don't care about Adolf Hitlers actions? or would a god set it straight afterwards? In this case we have already assumed that there's a god and that he have already created us in this situation that we are in. Let's say that it's more reasonable that this god must be a (b) god (ie. that he will put on his wig and his cape and sit down in the court with his hammer).

    Then what kind of punishment should this god have at hand; eternal torment in hell; shortwhile torment in hell and then obliteration; obliteration; shortwhile torment in hell and then hapiness in heaven; a quick slap with a stick, whip or the like; admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them? Or perhaps a good pedagogical one on one where wrongs and rights are being explained thoroughly. This pedagogical approach could be followed up by the threat of banishment to a more lowly planet or to float around in space in solitude in a little vessel (that would be a great punishment since we are normally a social animal).
    We have all kinds of ways a god could punish and reward bad and good behaviour.

    Bearing in mind that this god has already chosen to create us why should this god wish to either obliterate us or punish us eternally after our earthly life cause of these earthly actions. What kind of actions following the line of thought (from the idea the god is a just god) would a god command? Make people "relive" the attrocities themselves as the victim?

    But let's stick with the (b) god. If he would have a punishment and rewardsystem would he then be a silent judge who would let it be up to the humans own reason to judge what is wrong and what is right? Or would he send his Rules to the humans? If yes to the latter would he then send his Rules to a select few (who then was to take on the task to persuade others that they had received the Rules)? Or would he make them public known fx through a panhuman revelation? Now some would perhaps argue that it would be stupid to do number 2. One reason could be that he would then not be able to test the humans (sic!). Well of course he would, cause just as it was the case with Shaytan it should be assumed that despite that we were fully aware of the existence of this god and of his Rules we could still revolt. But obviously this approach, from the assumption that the (b) god exist, is not what our god have chosen. Our god have chosen to send down his Rules to a select few (who then gets put in a better condition for knowing that there's in fact a god and what his rules are). The rest a us a stuck to try to guess which of the many different set of Rules is the right one. Some of the Rules in existence might have being deliberately created by evil human beings or perhaps Shaytan. In might also be the case that many of these different (if not all) versions of Rules are all linked with our god's Rules, and that the god would be delighted if we just followed one of them despite the small mistakes and deviants in them. Perhaps he will reward every people who have lived a good life regardless wether they believed, in him and his Rules, or not. But then what's the point of sending down any Rules in the first place? To have his back and that he could say "hey I did send down right hand, mister G/J, to tell you. It's not my problem that you did not listen". ...
    Here's our (b) god in discussion with a South American fellow: "So you where from South America in the 7th century CE. Well tough luck then. I did send mister G to South America several times but I guess your forefathers ruined it for you then. I explicitly said that you are only allowed to take female slaves and have them as concubines if they attacked you first. You should not be the aggressor. Too bad." ... "So you also thought that I wanted you to sacrifice humans on my behalf. No I'm not really into that kind of thing. I specifically said it was animals I wanted. But you are gonna be punished for sacrificing humans and having unlawful concubines. That's for sure. That's horrible! It's not my problem that you thought that you where following my rules as passed down to you by your forefathers"

    Regardless of what is true the homosexuals are of course doomed assuming that the (b) god exists!

    In this little answer is springled out some of my many problems with the idea of gods and religions. Hence I'm an atheist though of course being agnostic wether there actually exists such a being or not.
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #505 - February 26, 2010, 03:01 PM

    I guess this means that yes some inferences that I draw are biased toword assuming Islam is divinely inspired. I honestly do try and be as consistent and as critical as possible regarding my approach toward Islam. I have questioned whether Islam is indeed divinely inspired many times before - my faith was quite weak on a couple of occasions at least. I'm not pretending that it's plain sailing and that everything makes sense to me. But I do have faith in the God of the Quran and do feel a personal connection to Him  - and I can not ignore this.

    You dont need to respond to this post, but will reply to your points anyway.

    So you accept you are making biased assumptions when examining you scriptures, which is a brave thing to admit.  I wont labour this point, as a scientist you will know everything that I would say anyway.  I am less interested in winning an argument, and more interested in you seeing what I see as the err in your logic and understanding.  I know you recognise that a religious stance may not be supported by logic, but what I want to point out here additionally is that you are using quasi-logic to support your faith without knowing it.

    Quote from: abuyuonus2
    'I may have mentioned it once or twice but whenever I take a look around me I see amazing beauty and elegance and I can't help but think there is an intelligent designer behind nature. I therefore can not deny and beleive there is a God that created the Universe. I don't think I could ignore this even if I tried. I also beleive there is a lot of good within us humans. I don't beleive that being able to be conscious of God evolved by accident within us - I beleive God gave us this consciousness. I also beleive that if God did create us and gave us our consciousness He must care about us. Since He is the creator af all things I believe Him to be a just God. On this earth there is a lot of injustice. I have two choices - either beleive that God doesn't care about these injustices or I beleive God does care about these injustices and one day He will put things right. I feel it would make much more sense to  beleive God will judge us after we die since otherwise it would make him a God who doesn't care about justice - this to me is impossible. In my opinion from a couple of verses from the Quran this might be enough to make me a Muslim (i.e. a submitter to God's will) although I know a lot of scholars would argue otherwise:


    Whether you find this world awesome or not is a red herring, we are not debating whether a creator exists or not, we are debating whether the quran is the words of this omnicient creator.  And whether he made it blindingly obvious  (as claimed in the Quran) that Islam is the right religion over and above all the other faiths.  If he didnt, then you might accept its not anyones fault that they dont believe, and wonder why apostates are burned in hell or even why polytheists are.

    Once you examine what gives you this faith, then you will see it is only supported by thin straws and religious memes might make them feel like something far more solid & robust.  They allow you to close your ears to any opposing views (kaffirs/ideas of hell/ heaven/life after death/feeling special) and draw a degree of comfort in knowing that Allah recognises the bonus value of you believing in him despite having no evidence. At least I used to anyway.

    From your posts it sounds like the crux of your faith is that Islam matches how you would imagine the creators religion to be.  The idea of a God in your head would be an interventionist, singlular, retributive one etc.  And you find all these qualities are matched by the quran, so it is far more likely to be the correct one compared to all the other religions around, , and thats a sound argument.

    What you dont see is that being born into the relgion shapes your understanding to come up with these qualities in itself.  So in effect you are using your initial cultural backdrop of Islam to justify Islam i.e. you are using Islam to justify itself.  Its like looking at a cow and saying its a cow because it looks like one.  You will only be right if the person that first showed you what a cow looked like is correct.  Thats why religion gets passed on through generations, and only a small percentage convert.  Reality is personal & subjective in this instance.

    If you were to apply modern logic to any religion and willing to perform mental acrobatics, you could make any religion appear to be perfect in your eyes and be convinced by it, just like all other believers do.    In reverse they struggle to understand how you believe in Muhammed/circumcision/multiple marriage/4:34/torture in hell/pigs being haram etc and say that Islam cant be the true religion, and their version of Christianity makes perfect sense to them.

    In the end, we have to accept that we dont know and just leave it at that.  The only person who has a problem with that is the invisible thing in the sky, who demands that we say we do, or face torture. 

    And do please excuse me for going on at length here /rant

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #506 - February 26, 2010, 03:14 PM

    although not as much as debunker who seems to be a bit gay for him

    they should get a room together

    Quote
    The agnostic position is of course that we do not know if God exists. But let's just assume for a second that He does exist and that He did indeed create the universe and did create us. Since He is the creator of all things, He is responsible for our creation no matter how we came about (i.e. via evolution or whatever). We humans commit acts of attrocity towards each other (i.e. Hitler, parents that abuse/kill their children etc.). Would this God:

    a) not care about these injustices and hence be a God that does not care about justice. Humans are a bunch of people whom He does not care for and He was just conducting an experiment for His own ammusement no matter how much pain and suffering they went through. Therefore there is no need for an afterlife or a 'day of judgment'.

    maybe


    Quote
    b) would this God in fact care about us and indeed make all the pain and suffering worthwile, and one day put all the injustices right i.e. He is a just God

    maybe

    Quote
    If any of us have chosen option b, then it must necessitate some system of reward and punishment after we die. Therefore do you guys beleive in a punishment/reward system after we die (assuming God does exist)?

    so what category do I fall in?

    I know it might sound like a cop out, but trust me it isnt.

    Agnosticism is not an either..or stance - its a stance that loses the universally accepted truth & arrogance of theists, and only supports what we do know.  If that is very little, then so be it, thats just bad luck. 

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  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #507 - February 26, 2010, 03:21 PM

    IsLame, I do appreicate your thoughts and thanks for not forcing me to answer another load of questions.

    ''they should get a room together''

    defo, just make sure it's not next door to me.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #508 - February 26, 2010, 04:14 PM

    Little children may believe in Cinderella talking to birds and mice and stuff. What makes you smarter than a child if you believe that Suleiman, as the Qur'an says, was talking to ants? idiot2
  • Re: The Story of Sulayman
     Reply #509 - February 26, 2010, 04:20 PM

    maybe I am a child or have the mentality of a child at least - got a problem with that?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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