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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.

 (Read 8821 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #30 - February 13, 2010, 06:14 PM

    ''Are you my kindred spirit?''

     sloshed

    I'm the one on the left drinking orange juice

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #31 - February 13, 2010, 06:16 PM

    ''Are you my kindred spirit?''

     sloshed

    I'm the one on the left drinking orange juice


    haha I love how the right one keeps drinking even after having fallen down.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #32 - February 13, 2010, 06:25 PM

    The point the videomaker makes at the beginning of the vid is that just beacause our universe may have had a beginning it doesn't necessarily mean that it has a cause - he's right.


    I didn't get that one. I think that if something has a beginning, it has to have a cause.

    Quote
    In addition, even if we can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe had a beginning it still doesn't prove the existence of God. Of course our current cosmological theory, the big bang theory and inflationary cosmology in its stand-alone form,  does suggest our universe had a beginning i.e. that everything came into existence from a singularity of pure vacuum energy.


    Right.

    Quote
    However this does leave us with a couple of uncomfortable choices

    1)   We choose to have faith in these multiverse/cyclic cosmology theories even though we accept we will never be able to prove the theories. This has the advantage that the first law of thermodynamics is not violated.
    2)   We fully embrace the big bang theory in it's current form - this is a testable theory of science which has made some excellent predictions, and we belive that the energy that gave birth to our universe may have appeared from out of nowhere and that the universe had a definite beginning. This would imply faith that a supernatural creator created the universe from nothing and hence a violation of the first law of thermodynamics


    Wait a second! It does not imply that a supernatural creator created the universe. May be the universe itself came in to existence at that point and has been evolving ever since?

    Quote
    Which option do we choose? I choose option 2


    I just proposed a third option!!

    Quote
    and my reasoning is the following. Something which I feel  is quite often overlooked in these sorts of discussions are the laws of physics themselves. For example the laws of physics are so beautifally elegant, it seems almost impossibe, to me at least that there is no inteligence behind them.

     

    That assumes there is an intelligent creator separate from the creation, which is not necessary.

    Quote
    Physicists are often in awe of these laws and are humbled by them - they spend their entire lives stumbling around like children trying to uncover their beauty. It is my opinion, and I think a crucial point that the veido maker missed is that the first law of thermodynamics along with all the other laws of physics may have come into existence when the Creator created the universe. Before the creation event these laws may not even have existed. Thus when God creates the universe out of nothing he does not violte the first law of thermodynamics because it simply didn't exist. Only the instant when the universe was created that?s when all the laws of physcis themselves came into existence, space came into existence and time started ticking. Of course there is no scientfic basis for the creation event itslef (i.e. this is real creation not the transformation of energy/matter to different forms the videomaker explained) but it's something we have to take on faith.


    Reasonable enough. But what I proposed does not require a creator God, and still makes your argument valid. So why my proposition should be considered better than yours? Because we know that the universe exists; the same cannot be said about a creator God.

    Quote
    The reason I find this more appealing than option 1 is that with option1 we are still left with the question of where all these truly magnificent and beautiful laws of physics came from. It would be entirley unsatisfactory just to think 'well that's just the way that nature is'. Surely there must be some intelligence behind them?


    See above.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #33 - February 13, 2010, 07:20 PM

    ''Wait a second! It does not imply that a supernatural creator created the universe. May be the universe itself came in to existence at that point and has been evolving ever since?

    I just proposed a third option!!''

    Charles, what could make the universe appear from out of nothing? In my opinion only a supernatural creator could do this. And if the universe did just appear from nothing, how do you account for the awesome beauty and elegance of the laws of physics. I honestly feel we're limitied to the two options I mentioned.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #34 - February 13, 2010, 07:27 PM

    ''Wait a second! It does not imply that a supernatural creator created the universe. May be the universe itself came in to existence at that point and has been evolving ever since?

    I just proposed a third option!!''

    Charles, what could make the universe appear from out of nothing? In my opinion only a supernatural creator could do this. And if the universe did just appear from nothing, how do you account for the awesome beauty and elegance of the laws of physics. I honestly feel we're limitied to the two options I mentioned.


    So what could a ("first") creator God appear from out of nothing? The third option is in no way any less valid than the other two.

    I don't doubt your honesty for a single moment; I have been there.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #35 - February 13, 2010, 07:31 PM

    Most theists beleive God has always existed (as I do)

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #36 - February 13, 2010, 07:34 PM

    Most theists beleive God has always existed (as I do)


    And probably I believe that the universe has always existed. The object of my belief, the universe, needs no evidence. What about yours?

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #37 - February 13, 2010, 07:41 PM

    @ Yunus

    Why can't you find atheism just far saner than any religion?


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #38 - February 13, 2010, 07:45 PM

    My gf was asking me what Straw Man fallacy was the other day. I'll refer her to this pic because it's a beautiful example, thanks.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #39 - February 13, 2010, 07:47 PM

    @ Yunus

    Why can't you find atheism just far saner than any religion?

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Cheesy

    That is one of the greatest jokes I have come across about atheism.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #40 - February 13, 2010, 07:51 PM

    We can conduct a simple thought experiment about an "edge" of space:

    Imagine yourself at the edge of the universe. Can you reach out and put your arm outside of the edge?
    The conundrum here is that either answer will lead to the same conclusion, an edge is an absurdity. If you say yes then there is space you are reaching into, if you say no then there is a physical barrier, such that it is also taking space and so you can run the argument indefinately.

    first, you are mixing up the concept of "limit" with the concept of "infinity"
    second, you are arbitrarily assuming that space is "linear" (i.e. you are assuming that if you keep moving in the same direction you will never reach the spot you started from)
    third, you are assuming that space is not expanding faster than anything could possibly move

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #41 - February 13, 2010, 07:57 PM

    @ Yunus

    Why can't you find atheism just far saner than any religion?

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    That's it, F this, I'm becoming an atheist.

    Those theist mo fos are crazy.  Narcissist

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #42 - February 13, 2010, 07:59 PM

    That's it, F this, I'm becoming an atheist.

    Those theist mo fos are crazy.


    Please don't fall for the joke; it is a nice one, but it is still a joke.

    Atheism doesn't stand on "nothing"  Cheesy

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #43 - February 13, 2010, 07:59 PM

    My gf was asking me what Straw Man fallacy was the other day. I'll refer her to this pic because it's a beautiful example, thanks.


    Except I wasn't even making an argument! I was just in a playful mood... thanks.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #44 - February 13, 2010, 08:02 PM

    @ Yunus

    Why can't you find atheism just far saner than any religion?

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    except, that's not atheism

    unless you are claiming that any form of belief in a divine being implies believing that such divine being created anything

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #45 - February 13, 2010, 08:04 PM

    Guys just because they believe in God and are Muslims does not mean they don't make jokes.

    It's just they don't know how to make funny ones *drum roll*

    Kidding, kidding  grin12
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #46 - February 13, 2010, 08:05 PM

    except, that's not atheism

    unless you are claiming that any form of belief in a divine being implies believing that such divine being created anything


    Sorry, but I don't think debunker was serious about that pic; he is far too intelligent to fall for that kind of crap if taken seriously.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #47 - February 13, 2010, 08:07 PM

    except, that's not atheism

    unless you are claiming that any form of belief in a divine being implies believing that such divine being created anything


    Ummm? What?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #48 - February 13, 2010, 08:09 PM

    apparently, he does fall for it

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #49 - February 13, 2010, 08:10 PM

    Except I wasn't even making an argument! I was just in a playful mood... thanks.


    Yeh I assumed you weren't. Don't worry, I wouldn't so insult your intelligence  grin12

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #50 - February 13, 2010, 08:12 PM

    Ummm? What?

    believing in a god does not imply believing that such god created anything, including the universe

    and...

    believing that the universe was not created does not imply not believing that a god exists

    i can't type it more simply than that

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #51 - February 13, 2010, 08:13 PM

    Wow, Tlaloc you really love this topic don't you. The only time I ever see you online is when we're discussing the cosmological argument for the existence of God  Cheesy Well, that time we had a debate it was about dualism, but that led on from a debate about the cosmological argument.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #52 - February 13, 2010, 08:16 PM

    well i have little to provide when it comes to islam in itself, since i am an ex-catholic

    so i prefer to join the more general philosophical debates ^_^

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #53 - February 13, 2010, 08:16 PM

    apparently, he does fall for it


    you're too smart for my taste... I usually avoid discussing things with overly intelligent people.. it makes me feel inferior.  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #54 - February 13, 2010, 08:17 PM

    believing in a god does not imply believing that such god created anything, including the universe

    and...

    believing that the universe was not created does not imply not believing that a god exists

    i can't type it more simply than that


    What you mean is that the pic demonstrated a straw man version of the belief that God didn't create the universe, not that God doesn't exist. Yeah, good point actually.

    Damn, you remind me of Ayer.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #55 - February 13, 2010, 08:18 PM

    believing in a god does not imply believing that such god created anything, including the universe

    and...

    believing that the universe was not created does not imply not believing that a god exists

    i can't type it more simply than that


    It depends on your definition of God, Mr. Genius.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #56 - February 13, 2010, 08:18 PM

    you're too smart for my taste... I usually avoid discussing things with overly intelligent people.. it makes me feel inferior.  

    oh stfu, i do like you Cheesy

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #57 - February 13, 2010, 08:21 PM

    It depends on your definition of God, Mr. Genius.

    true.

    to be more precise it depends on whether you define god as the "creator of the universe" or as anything else like "the uncaused cause" or "the perfect being" or "the transcendental" or "the source of morality", etcetera etcetera

    but still, people who believe in a god that is any of those besides "creator of the universe" are not classified into "atheism"

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #58 - February 13, 2010, 08:25 PM

    Quote
    but still, people who believe in a god that is any of those besides "creator of the universe" are not classified into "atheism"


    now what is that supposed to mean,O Wise One? I need you to speak in simpler words for me.... because these words above sound like ramblings to my fragile little brain.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The Kalam/Cosmological Argument for God.
     Reply #59 - February 13, 2010, 08:43 PM

    i'll use an example:

    people exist who believe that the universe simply started existing out of nothing, and it organized itself and blah blah...
    AND...
    they also believe the universe itself is a divine entity, a perfect being, an uncaused cause

    and...

    they are NOT atheists

    in fact, they would be pantheist

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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