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Theme Changer

 Topic: What does "unnatural" mean to you?

 (Read 5095 times)
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  • What does "unnatural" mean to you?
     OP - February 08, 2010, 12:33 AM

    In some discussions people have been making arguments based upon something being "natural" or "unnatural".

    Something "unnatural" is assumed to be "bad" and this justifies prejudice against it.

    What do you mean when you say something is unnatural?

    All human behaviour is a part of nature, a part of the physical world, the material world.

    In this sense everything is natural.  How could it not be?  Having sex with children, others of the same or opposite sex, sheep, etc., are all events that occur in nature and are natural.

    Us Homo sapiens are able to think like no other species.  We can manipulate our environment like no other species. 

    Sometimes people use the word "natural" to refer to things not produced through these unique abilities.

    Maybe it is something like this meaning that people are using when describing something as "unnatural" and "bad".

    If you were using this meaning, rather than something like it, you must really hate people eating ice cream!!!!!  Or perhaps you think Homo sapiens are an "unnatural" species altogether?

    Maybe you mean this though; that something is "unnatural" if you think it is very different from social behaviours that were well established in our species through our evolutionary history prior to modern societies.

    However, if you don't know much about anthropology or the issues you are debating then it is very doubtful whether you really know what behvaiours were well established.  You probably have no idea what you are talking about.

    You would need to define "well established social practices", and have evidence that a practice use not to occur but does now.  But you'll probably find that there are other practices that you have no problem with that use not to occur.  Perhaps you could try to describe some practices as "fundamental social structures" or something.  In any case, this still has nothing to do with something being "bad".

    The last idea I have, and this is in fact the one that I think is closest to what people are thinking, is that you mean something "unnatural" is somehow against natural processes.  That life, other than human life, doesn't evolve to produce the practice that you are interested in calling "bad".

    Homosexuality is an example of a sexual behaviour that is very hard to understand through evolutionary theory.

    Evolutionary theory is how we understand life.  Natural selection is the most important theory for understanding how organisms become adapted to their environments.

    Natural selection occurs when individuals with a certain version of a gene reproduce successfully at a higher rate than others.

    Homosexuals, unless they still reproduce or contribute to the reproductive success of their relatives, are an evolutionary dead end.  On the face of it you would think that if such a "trait" did appear that it would quickly become extinct.

    Homosexuality, which is very likely influenced by genetics, seems to make no sense at all when considering the nature of natural selection.  There is research trying to understand the evolution of the behaviour.

    We did not evolve to have a monogamous heterosexual social structure. 

    We did not evolve to be anything at all. 

    We simply evolved.

    A variety of sexual social structures have evolved. 

    Amongst the primates, to whom we belong, there are:

    monogamous structures

    polygamous structures

    structures with one female and multiple males

    etc.

    There are also species where males are much larger than females, and species where males and females are of similar size (like ours).

    Amongst our closets living relatives (chimps, bonobos):

    there is a fission/fusion structure (highly promiscuous!)

    "rape"

    infanticide

    homosexuality

    incest

    "pedophilia" 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZiTzxL3Nh4

    There are also organisms that reproduce without sex, or have both male and female sexual parts (which can occur with people too).

    Sometimes the sexual roles are reversed and it is the females that are larger, more aggressive, and compete over males; while the males contribute the most resources for the offspring through raising them.

    I think that people just say something is "unnatural" when they don't like it and want to be derogatory.
  • Re: What does unnatural mean?
     Reply #1 - February 08, 2010, 12:39 AM

    Great post, I'm with you on everything you wrote here.. something that I have been thinking about after our recent discussions here.  popcorn

    Morality is a closely connected issue, and I'd like to know why.  I wonder if morality is deemed to be what God would have wanted.  Thus anything that is 'unnatural' according to the Abrahmic scriptures, is usually considered immoral too.  I dont know Huh?


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  • Re: What does "unnatural" mean to you?
     Reply #2 - February 08, 2010, 02:28 AM

    I consider anything that can be done in this universe as "natural". Of course when we speak about "natural" in the context of human society we're talking about accepted social conventions and rules we make up according to our experiences and history with various behaviours as a sentient and highly social species.

    So in the context of what you're saying dry humping a sharp rock, throwing a kid down a well and strangling an octupus with it's tentacles are all natural also. So yeah, saying something is natural or not is really meaningless... well for me it is anyways. I don't pretend that our social norm and patterns of behaviour that we filter in our family and social life is in any way rooted in some primordial 'natural' instinct. Maybe parts of it are, but the structure and of our societies are largely artificial and borne out of experience.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: What does "unnatural" mean to you?
     Reply #3 - February 08, 2010, 02:48 AM

    "when we speak about "natural" in the context of human society we're talking about accepted social conventions and rules we make up according to our experiences and history with various behaviours"

    Then you should be using a different word(s) to describe what you mean.  

    For example:

    In the discussions I have read regarding incest this meaning was not clear.

    Incest is unnatural = I do not personnaly think incest follows accepted social rules and norms?

    If that were the case it would be a circular argument and make no sense.  It's the same as saying:

    I think society should be prejudice against incestuous individuals as society is prejudice against incestuous individuals.

    The conclusion is embeded in the premise.  You are begging the question.

    "So in the context of what you're saying dry humping a sharp rock, throwing a kid down a well and strangling an octupus with it's tentacles are all natural also. So yeah, saying something is natural or not is really meaningless... well for me it is anyways. I don't pretend that our social norm and patterns of behaviour that we filter in our family and social life is in any way rooted in some primordial 'natural' instinct. Maybe parts of it are, but the structure and of our societies are largely artificial and borne out of experience."

    You gave a material definition of "natural" and then went on to say modern socities are largely artifical.

    Homo sapiens' behaviour, like that of any other species, is highly influenced by our biology.  We do have a common human nature that we all share.  Our shared biology evolved not in modern socities (whose history is incredibly short on the evolutionary timescale), but most likely as hunters and gatherers.    
  • Re: What does "unnatural" mean to you?
     Reply #4 - February 08, 2010, 04:08 AM

    Actually, I agree with you that calling something like homosexuality and incest "unnatural" is a inaccurate and really more of a knee-jerk reaction. That was precisely my point. I really did not advocate that angle on that thread. In fact I made it clear that I had certain prejudices with regards to what I think is a unhealthy for society and hence I reject it on a social basis - not legal. I could care less if incest is natural or not. I'm sure I've read of lot of animals that commit incest and sometimes even humans have. Doesn't really change the fact that I disapprove of any social acceptance of people engage in it. Thats all there is to it I'm afraid.

    That being said, I no longer wish to pursue any topic related to that issue because I feel the proponents of incest are arguing for a sake of arguing and cannot be taken seriously. But I guess it's a given on a forum such as this that we'd attract people who have views well outside the norm and well into the bizarre.

    This topic is now done to death and I'm done with it too.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: What does unnatural mean?
     Reply #5 - February 08, 2010, 04:11 AM

    Things are often derided as unnatural out of prejudice for what is falsely naturalized by the dominant ideology.

    Man has no nature he is obliged to fulfil.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: What does "unnatural" mean to you?
     Reply #6 - February 08, 2010, 06:47 AM

    this is a question I've been asking myself for a long time... And I dont believe that calling homosexuality 'unnatural' is accurate at all...

    I mean what is natural? Something found in nature? We are part of nature, so everything we do should be 'natural'. Does it refer to anything modified by human technology? So everything civilization is based on is unnatural? Is it what the majority rules? But thats hardly a definition for 'natural'.

    and how is something unnatural necessarily 'wrong' or 'right'?



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: What does "unnatural" mean to you?
     Reply #7 - February 08, 2010, 07:16 AM

    Good questions all.

    Hurricanes, earthquakes, post-mortem decay, are all natural too. As an atheist, non-religionist, one of the things I had to come to terms with is the nonduality of the universe. There's no "right" or "wrong" on a universal/natural level. Life and death are equals, it's only certain cultures in 1 out of a billion species that have gone to great lengths projecting a dualistic ("good" vs "evil") model of perception upon a nondualistic, indifferent, nonhuman universe. I suppose it's given many people comfort to think the universe follows our logic, our value judgments, but ultimately, that's an illusion, a delusion of our own making.

    There are certain ideas, practices, things that groups of people (tribes, nations, societies) agree on with spoken and/or unspoken rules which are supposed to "make sense" of things or stave off "chaos". But those rules are arbitrary, and like all rules, subject to frequent changes, and only propped up by the numbers of people who choose to accept them. Once enough people don't accept the rules, the rules change. But they are still rules we as societies make up amongst ourselves. There's no such thing as "unnatural" at the bottom of it all. There are things that can reduce the possibilities of survival, whether its over-pollution, logging all the trees, cannibalism etc., but I am a consequentialist, I'd say things are "good" or "bad" not intrinsically, not inherently, not "originally", but only if and when and in how they produce consequences.

    Besides having sturdy science and logic education, studying Taoism and Zen Buddhism helped in this regard. These are non-theistic, non-Abrahamic and non-dualistic outlooks, not even religions; just another set of glasses through which to look at the world. Ultimately, we can not really take off all glasses of perception as we are always wearing some, whether we know it or not. Just the fact that we are human beings and don't have, for example, a sensitivity to most of the light spectrum like some animals and plants, and we don't have access to physically observe and experience phenomena up close in other parts of the universe, thus our perceptions will always be limited. We can intellectualize, abstract, theorize and speculate, and we can be very good at those things, sometimes; but to a great extent, we are like the person born blind, trying to understand highly visual scenes like a sunset or the film Avatar in 3D. There will always be more questions than answers.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: What does "unnatural" mean to you?
     Reply #8 - February 08, 2010, 09:37 AM

    If you want to know what "unnatural" means go to YouTube and search for "Asses of the Caribbean". whistling2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What does "unnatural" mean to you?
     Reply #9 - February 08, 2010, 10:07 AM

    Things are often derided as unnatural out of prejudice for what is falsely naturalized by the dominant ideology.

    Man has no nature he is obliged to fulfil.

    Nice.

    Basically after reading the entries here, our understanding of evolution appears to have altered our definition of the word unnatural. 

    Evolution changes our understanding of an Abrahmic (God) expectation to a random (Darwin) explanation.

    Our boundaries for what can be considered as natural and thus moralistic/ethical has expanded.  The terms moralistic & unnatural have become largely redundant as an Atheists term and replaced by other words


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: What does "unnatural" mean to you?
     Reply #10 - February 11, 2010, 05:02 AM

    Nice.

    Basically after reading the entries here, our understanding of evolution appears to have altered our definition of the word unnatural. 

    Evolution changes our understanding of an Abrahmic (God) expectation to a random (Darwin) explanation.

    Our boundaries for what can be considered as natural and thus moralistic/ethical has expanded.  The terms moralistic & unnatural have become largely redundant as an Atheists term and replaced by other words




    When I mention this forum to someone I say there are many Ex Muslims there and I find them to be very openminded and liberal Smiley
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