Al-Ghazzali and Averroes

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Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
OP - February 12, 2010, 09:09 AM

Does anybody here know the history and nature of the dispute between this sufi and philosopher? What were they arguing about and why was Ghazzali trying to destruct philosophy?

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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #1 - February 12, 2010, 09:37 AM

Have you read their works?

Al-Ghazzali - The Incoherence of the Philosophers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers

Averroes - The Incoherence of the Incoherence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Incoherence
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #2 - February 12, 2010, 09:43 AM

I was considering it, indeed, I just decided to take a short cut to see if anybody here actually recommends reading their work.

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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #3 - February 12, 2010, 09:58 AM

Omar Khayyam is probably the man you wanna ask - he's read every book in the world! http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6219.msg157937#msg157937

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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #4 - February 12, 2010, 10:39 AM

Quote from: z10 on February 12, 2010, 09:09 AM
Does anybody here know the history and nature of the dispute between this sufi and philosopher? What were they arguing about and why was Ghazzali trying to destruct philosophy?

z10 did you mean the dispute between Ghazali and Avicenna/Ibn Sina? They both had major disputes with each other during their lifetimes.

Al Ghazali wrote the Incoherence of the Philosophers, which essentially attacked the Aristotelian and Greek thought that Ibn Sina relied upon.

Averroes/Ibn Rushd came after Ghazali died, and like Ibn Sina, favoured Greek Philosophy. He wrote a masterful retort to Ghazali's Incoherence of the Philosophers, with a book titled Inchoherence of the Incoherence.

Ghazali didn't turn to sufism until near the end of his life. He went through a spiritual crisis, renounced wealth and travelled as a sufi. So the clash between the two camps was philosophical, and sufism was something that Ghazali turned to very late in his life.
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #5 - February 12, 2010, 11:37 AM

Quote from: abuk on February 12, 2010, 10:39 AM
z10 did you mean the dispute between Ghazali and Avicenna/Ibn Sina? They both had major disputes with each other during their lifetimes.

Al Ghazali wrote the Incoherence of the Philosophers, which essentially attacked the Aristotelian and Greek thought that Ibn Sina relied upon.

Averroes/Ibn Rushd came after Ghazali died, and like Ibn Sina, favoured Greek Philosophy. He wrote a masterful retort to Ghazali's Incoherence of the Philosophers, with a book titled Inchoherence of the Incoherence.

Ghazali didn't turn to sufism until near the end of his life. He went through a spiritual crisis, renounced wealth and travelled as a sufi. So the clash between the two camps was philosophical, and sufism was something that Ghazali turned to very late in his life.

Wow Ghazali went from orthodox islam to sufism? Spiritual crisis? The great scholar of Islam? And yes you can read the glee in my voice reading that sentence, only because of the abhorrent views this man had towards women. Do you have more information on this, fascinating stuff.
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #6 - February 12, 2010, 12:57 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 12, 2010, 11:37 AM
Wow Ghazali went from orthodox islam to sufism? Spiritual crisis? The great scholar of Islam? And yes you can read the glee in my voice reading that sentence, only because of the abhorrent views this man had towards women. Do you have more information on this, fascinating stuff.

I am just about to goto work BlackDog, but will post some more info over the weekend. Yes most Muslims are shocked when they hear that the great Al Ghazali had a spiritual crisis! In the mean time, I'm sure Sheikh Google should be able to provide some summary information.
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #7 - February 12, 2010, 12:58 PM

OK bro But please do post when you can.
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #8 - February 12, 2010, 09:40 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 12, 2010, 11:37 AM
Wow Ghazali went from orthodox islam to sufism? Spiritual crisis? The great scholar of Islam? And yes you can read the glee in my voice reading that sentence, only because of the abhorrent views this man had towards women. Do you have more information on this, fascinating stuff.

Ghazali wrote about his issues in his autobiography al-munqidh minal dalal (Deliverance from Error). I have a couple of e-books that have further inofrmation, so if you pm me your email, i'll send them to you.

There is a fairly comprehensive website with info:

http://www.ghazali.org/articles/gz1.htm

the website is run by Muslims, and is a little over the top in it's praise of Ghazali, but does have some good background information.

Let me know if you need any further information.
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #9 - February 12, 2010, 09:44 PM

thanks abuk, i will check links and let you know if i want the e-books, i probably will though

i found this link:

http://www.ghazali.org/articles/dbm-gz.htm
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #10 - February 12, 2010, 09:54 PM

thank you very much abuk, i'll check out the link.

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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #11 - February 12, 2010, 10:13 PM

Quote from: abuk on February 12, 2010, 09:40 PM
Ghazali wrote about his issues in his autobiography al-munqidh minal dalal (Deliverance from Error). I have a couple of e-books that have further inofrmation, so if you pm me your email, i'll send them to you.

There is a fairly comprehensive website with info:

http://www.ghazali.org/articles/gz1.htm

the website is run by Muslims, and is a little over the top in it's praise of Ghazali, but does have some good background information.

Let me know if you need any further information.

Ghazali's thought and writing, was a turning point for the sunni muslim community and steered them away for philosophical thought. Ibn Rushd did write a refutation to Ghazali but it was largely ignored unfortunately.
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #12 - February 12, 2010, 10:18 PM

I find it interesting because I recently completed a book on sufism that praised Al-Ghazzali. According to the author of the book (Idries Shah) Ghazzali was misunderstood by both atheists and theists. Ghazzali's real aim was to show how both theology and philosophy are flawed and mystical sufism is the way to the truth.

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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #13 - February 12, 2010, 10:21 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on February 12, 2010, 10:13 PM
Ghazali's thought and writing, was a turning point for the sunni muslim community and steered them away for philosophical thought. Ibn Rushd did write a refutation to Ghazali but it was largely ignored unfortunately.

Yes I agree with you Omaar. Ghazali was held in such high regard by most, that any counter views were not well received. There is an assertion that the golden age of Islam began its decline during the time of Ghazali. I keep promising myself that I will research this further when I have some time, but never get round to it! It would be an interesting project to review not only the impact of Ghazali upon Western thought and philosophy, but also the negative impact upon Islamic philosophy and science. I would really value any thoughts from anyone else who may have looked into this!
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #14 - February 12, 2010, 10:26 PM

Quote from: z10 on February 12, 2010, 10:18 PM
I find it interesting because I recently completed a book on sufism that praised Al-Ghazzali. According to the author of the book (Idries Shah) Ghazzali was misunderstood by both atheists and theists. Ghazzali's real aim was to show how both theology and philosophy are flawed and mystical sufism is the way to the truth.

Yes that is certainly true z10. Ghazali spent a lot of effort trying to refute both Greek and Islamic philosophy. He appeared to have a love hate relationship with philosophy, particularly meta physics. However, it was in the very latter part of his life when he embraced tassawuf that he renounced philosophocal dialogue, gave up his position as head of a centre of excellence, and turned to sufism.
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #15 - February 12, 2010, 10:27 PM

Wouldn't that have made him a heretic?
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #16 - February 12, 2010, 10:28 PM

many sufis are called heretics, bd

hallaj comes to mind...

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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #17 - February 12, 2010, 10:29 PM

How do they square the circle of their philosophy in light of Islamic Orthodoxy?

With faith?
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #18 - February 12, 2010, 10:31 PM

well they say they are beyond both belief and disbelief. I am not an expert, but from what I have read sufism sees itself as the inner truth of all religions and so is compatible with all of them. According to the book I read above, sufism is atleast 4000 years old and only adopted the islamic religion because it was dominant and allowed them the freedom to distribute their views through symbols and secret meanings within their islamic teachings.

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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #19 - February 12, 2010, 10:45 PM

Quote from: abuk on February 12, 2010, 10:21 PM
Yes I agree with you Omaar. Ghazali was held in such high regard by most, that any counter views were not well received. There is an assertion that the golden age of Islam began its decline during the time of Ghazali. I keep promising myself that I will research this further when I have some time, but never get round to it! It would be an interesting project to review not only the impact of Ghazali upon Western thought and philosophy, but also the negative impact upon Islamic philosophy and science. I would really value any thoughts from anyone else who may have looked into this!

I remember asking a well known muslim theologian about Ibn Rushd and his book. I was told that there was no need to read it!
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #20 - February 12, 2010, 10:53 PM

Sufism predates Islam?

Then why follow Mohammed?

Sufis are the hippies of theology. Offense meant. Maybe narrow-minded of me, could change. But it pisses me off, this jovial mentality around something as serious as faith and religion. Specially when burning for eternity is at stake. Dead serious business, no time for mystical, desert dwelling, incense burning mentalities. Hard cold clinical faculties sought after.
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #21 - February 12, 2010, 11:17 PM

As far as I know, Mohammad is just the name given to the message of God, again they just use the name Mohammad because it can conceal their real ideas of reality. Also, they don't actually believe in heaven or hell, both are just metaphorical ideas. Heaven is not an actual place, it is becoming one with god. Similarly, there is no hell, there is only a false sense of seperation from god.

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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #22 - February 12, 2010, 11:18 PM

lol
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Re: Al-Ghazzali and Averroes
Reply #23 - February 13, 2010, 10:13 PM

Interesting thread.

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