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Theme Changer

 Topic: Tasty languages [Split]

 (Read 6698 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Tasty languages [Split]
     OP - February 13, 2010, 03:00 PM

    is turkish a derivative of urdu/ vice versa - or does Turkish derive from Persian like Urdu?

    'Urdu' itself is a Turkish word which means 'Army camp'. Urdu is influenced primarily from Farsi because it was the court language of the Mughals whilst the soldiers and lower nobles communicated in Turkic languages influenced by Farsi. This unique amalgamation of various languages, including Sanskrit, created Urdu.

    Turkish itself is an Altaic language (a descendant of the older Mongol/Turkic languages of Central Asia) but because of its interaction with Farsi (Indo-Aryan/Iranian language) and Arabic (Semitic language), the influences are there of course.

    Mod edit: Thread split from here.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #1 - February 13, 2010, 03:02 PM

    how do write it phonetically?
    in urdu its yah-knee-pill-ow

    actually it would be yakh(imagine phlegm in the 'kh' part)-knee pal-ow in Urdu.  grin12

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #2 - February 13, 2010, 11:56 PM

    'Urdu' itself is a Turkish word which means 'Army camp'.

    Why call it army camp?  So whats army camp in urdu?  Urdu?

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  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #3 - February 14, 2010, 05:11 AM

    Why call it army camp?  So whats army camp in urdu?  Urdu?

    Err...no. Its 'fauj'/'foj' which is the Urdu term for army.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #4 - February 14, 2010, 08:16 AM

    Err...no. Its 'fauj'/'foj' which is the Urdu term for army.


    also in Arabic, meaning a regiment


  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #5 - February 14, 2010, 09:07 AM

    shows the power of religion - it even involves itself with language, which in itself indirectly affects culture.

    I wonder whether christian countries also do the same?

    Check this tree.. looks like its different to what you are saying (I assume Hindi is where urdu would be as its missing)


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  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #6 - February 14, 2010, 09:11 AM

    here's another with urdu - but again Arabic is missing?

    anyone know more about the first language which all of these languages appear to derive from - proto-indian-european?

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  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #7 - February 14, 2010, 09:17 AM

    chinese and oriental languages are missing too - i wonder if language follows the same pattern as genetic lineage  or religious crusades or other things?

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  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #8 - February 14, 2010, 09:22 AM

    here's another - that again is missing arabic - is there a reason behind this/ or does aramaic not even route from proto indo european?


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  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #9 - February 14, 2010, 11:29 AM

    I don't think it's that clear if you go far back. I am trying to read up on it using varying articles.

    So far I think it begins with Proto-Semitic, specifically Akkadian which dates at earliest 2800 BC. And Semitic is under the Afro-Asiatic language group.

    It evolves into different language groups but for us we are interested in when it becomes Proto-Canaanite. a language Hebrew is a direct descendant of.

    I don't really know when this language originated, I think it streamed of from Akkadian. But I found an National Geographic article that claims they have found Proto-Canaanite passages in Egypt around 2400 to 3000 B.C. The Canaanites were expert magicians and it was said they could speak the language of the venomous snakes and thus control them. The Egyptians themselves spoke Coptic, Arabic Egyptian replaced Coptic but has been influenced by it.  The word for crocodile in Coptic and in Modern Arabic is:

    ? "timsah," crocodile,

    Another funny thing is back when the Egyptians were still doing their funky dance Moussa was a wide spread surname. The name for Moses is Musa in the Quran.

    http://www.coptic-cairo.com/culture/language/language/coptic.html

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070205-snake-spells.html

    And if you are wondering, the Coptic translations of the Bible were around Upper part of Egypt around 200-400 AD. Translated from the Greek of course. In the case of the New Testament.

    http://www.historyofscience.com/G2I/timeline/index.php/index.php?id=193

    Anyways from Proto-Canaanite it evolves into Phoenician around 1500 BC, and the script of  Phoenician around 1050 BC. This script was non-pictorial. The Aramaic alphabet, a modified form of Phoenician is the mother of Hebrew and Arabic script. Greek alphabet is also the daughter of Phoenician.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

    Arabic and Hebrew derive from Aramaic. And the Arabic Alphabet derived from Nabataean alphabet which is from the Aramaic script. I think this happend 400 AD.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean_alphabet
  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #10 - February 14, 2010, 11:31 AM

    I was told as a muslim they speak Arabic in heaven. Very funny. I wonder what the citizens of heaven were speaking before Arabic was fully formed as a language? I wonder, how Allah wrote the Quran in Arabic?

    Sorry mods can we split this part? Where Islame and Atheist PK swerve off. And then Pure Virtual joins in and finally me.
  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #11 - February 14, 2010, 12:14 PM

    Quote
    I was told as a muslim they speak Arabic in heaven. Very funny. I wonder what the citizens of heaven were speaking before Arabic was fully formed as a language? I wonder, how Allah wrote the Quran in Arabic?

     

     Grin

    Man, its just so easy isn't it, to stress out a Muslim and debunk Islam's silliness.

    This belongs in the thread of 'Simple questions to ask a Muslim to make him or her start sweating and fidgeting and getting anxious'


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #12 - February 14, 2010, 12:34 PM


    This belongs in the thread of 'Simple questions to ask a Muslim to make him or her start sweating and fidgeting and getting anxious'




     Cheesy Cheesy
  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #13 - February 14, 2010, 12:38 PM

    Arabic Language History:

    http://www.indiana.edu/~arabic/arabic_history.htm

    Arabic Language studies:

    http://www.indiana.edu/~arabic/
  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #14 - February 14, 2010, 12:52 PM

    I was told as a muslim they speak Arabic in heaven. Very funny. I wonder what the citizens of heaven were speaking before Arabic was fully formed as a language?

    Another knock-out punch Wink

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  • Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #15 - February 14, 2010, 01:03 PM

    Sorry mods can we split this part? Where Islame and Atheist PK swerve off. And then Pure Virtual joins in and finally me.

    So far I think it begins with Proto-Semitic, specifically Akkadian which dates at earliest 2800 BC. And Semitic is under the Afro-Asiatic language group.
    I don't really know when this language originated, I think it streamed of from Akkadian. But I found an National Geographic article that claims they have found Proto-Canaanite passages in Egypt around 2400 to 3000 B.C.
    And if you are wondering, the Coptic translations of the Bible were around Upper part of Egypt around 200-400 AD. Translated from the Greek of course. In the case of the New Testament.
    Anyways from Proto-Canaanite it evolves into Phoenician around 1500 BC, and the script of  Phoenician around 1050 BC. This script was non-pictorial. The Aramaic alphabet, a modified form of Phoenician is the mother of Hebrew and Arabic script. Greek alphabet is also the daughter of Phoenician.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet
    Arabic and Hebrew derive from Aramaic. And the Arabic Alphabet derived from Nabataean alphabet which is from the Aramaic script. I think this happend 400 AD.

    I think these dates actually make it look a little more intersting - if we could find a language  tree with these dates on, then I think it could be interesting

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  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #16 - February 14, 2010, 01:18 PM



    Interesting..


    Quote
    The rise of Arabic to the status of a major world language is inextricably intertwined with the rise     of Islam as a major world religion. Before the appearance of Islam, Arabic     was a minor member of the southern branch of the Semitic language family,     used by a small number of largely nomadic tribes in the Arabian peninsula,
        with an extremely poorly documented textual history. Within a hundred years     after the death (in 632 C.E.)    of Muhammad , the prophet entrusted by God to deliver the Islamic message,
        Arabic had become the official language of a world empire whose boundaries     stretched from the Oxus River in Central Asia to the Atlantic Ocean, and had     even moved northward into the Iberian Peninsula of Europe

    The unprecedented nature     of this transformation--at least among the languages found in the     Mediterranean Basin area--can be appreciated by comparisons with its     predecessors as major religious/political vernaculars in the region: Hebrew,     Greek and Latin. Hebrew, the language which preserved the major scriptural     texts of the Jewish religious tradition, had never secured major political     status as a language of empire, and, indeed, by the time Christianity was     established as a growing religious force in the second century C.E. had     virtually ceased to be spoken or actively used in its home territory, having     been replaced by its sister Semitic language, Aramaic, which was the     international language of the Persian empire. Greek, the language used to     preserve the most important canonical scriptural tracts of Christianity, the     New Testament writings, had been already long been established as the     pre-eminent language of culture and education in Mediterranean pagan society     when it was co-opted by Christian scribes. By this period (the second     century C.E.), Greek had ceased to be the language of the governmnental     institutions. Greek, however, had resurfaced politically by the time of the     rise of Christianity as a state religion under the emperor Constantine (d.     337 C.E.,)--who laid the groundwork for the split of the Roman empire into     western and eastern (Byzantine) halves. By the time of Muhammad's birth     (approximately 570 C.E.) Greek had fully reestablished its position as the     governmetnal as well as religious vernacular of the Byzantines     usurped the predominance of Greek as a governmental and administrative
        language when the Romans unified the region under the aegis of their empire,     and it would remain a unifying cultural language for Western Europe long     after the Roman empire ceased to exist as a political entity in that region.     The main entry of Latin, on the other hand, into the religious sphere of     monotheism was relatively minor, as the medium for the influential     translation of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, the Vulgate, that was     the only official version of scripture for the western Christian church     until the rise of Protestantism in the sixteenth century
    Hebrew, then, was a     religious language par excellence. Greek and Latin, on the other hand, while     making invaluable contributions to the corpus of religious texts used in     both Judaism (the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint, was the
        scriptual text of choice among the Hellenized Jews of the Roman empire) and     Christianity, were each languages that had extensive imperial histories     which preceded (and followed) the rise of Judeo-Christian monotheism to     prominence in the Mediterranean and had strong cultural links to the pagan     world and sensibility of Hellenism. It is only against this backdrop that     the truly radical break with the past represented by the rise of Arabic as     the scriptural medium for Islam coupled with its adoption by the Umayyad
        caliphs as the sole language for governmental business in 697 C.E. can be
        appreciated.


    Arabic belongs to the     Semitic language family. The members of this family have a recorded history     going back thousands of years--one of the most extensive continuous archives     of documents belonging to any human language group. The Semitic languages     eventually took root and flourished in the Mediterranean Basin area,     especially in the Tigris-Euphrates river basin and in the coastal areas of      the Levant, but where the home area of "proto-Semitic" was located is still
        the object of dispute among scholars. Once, the Arabian Peninsula was
        thought to have been the "cradle" of proto-Semitic, but nowadays many
        scholars advocate the view that it originated somewhere in East Africa,
        probably in the area of Somalia/Ethiopia. Interestingly, both these areas     are now dominated linguistically by the two youngest members of the Semitic     language family: Arabic and Amharic, both of which emerged in the mid-fourth     century C.E The swift emergence and
        spread of Arabic and Amharic illustrates what seems to be a particularly
        notable characteristic of the Semitic language family: as new members of the     group emerge, they tend to assimilate their parent languages quite
        completely. This would account for the fact that so many members of the
        group have disappeared completely over the centuries or have become
        fossilized languages often limited to mainly religious contexts, no longer     part of the speech of daily life. This assimilative power was certainly a     factor in the spread of Arabic, which completely displaced its predecessors     after only a few hundred years in the area where Arabic speakers had become     politically dominant . Thus all the South Arabian languages and Aramaic, in
        all its varied dialectical forms, became to all intents and purposes "dead"
        languages very soon after the emergence of Islam in the seventh century C.E.
        language of Coptic, which was the direct descendent of Pharaonic Egyptian     and still an important literary and cultural language at the time of the     Islamic conquest. Today it survives only as the religious language of the
        Coptic Christian community of Egypt, who otherwise use Arabic in all spheres     of their everyday lives

    In contrast, when Arabic     has contested ground with Indo-European languages or members of other     distant linguistic families, like Turkish (which is a member of the Altaic
        family of languages that originated in central Mongolia), its record has not     been nearly so successful. For example, when Arabic was introduced into the     Iranian Plateau after the fall of the Sassanian Empire to the Arab armies in     the 630s C.E., it seemed to overwhelmingly dominate the Indo-European     Persianate languages of the region for a while. But by the late 900s, a     revitalized form of the Old Persian (Pahlavi) language had decisively     re-emerged as not only a spoken language, but also a vehicle for government     transactions and literary culture as well. This "new" Persian has remained
        dominant in this geographical region throughout succeeding centuries and the     modern Persian spoken today in Iran is virtually identical with it


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  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #17 - February 14, 2010, 02:27 PM

    anyone know more about the first language which all of these languages appear to derive from - proto-indian-european?

    The Semitic Languages (including Aramaic/Arabic) is not related to the Indo-european language.
    In Europe, Basque is also not related to the Indo-European languages.

    Proto Indo European is a pre-historic (before writing) re-constructed language. Scholars are able to work out what certain words would have been by seeing their evolution through other languages and seeing how each family of a language broke off.
    It also allows scholars to determine what words existed at that time.  For example, there is no Proto Indo European word for "window" or for "sea".
    The reason being that when the language existed, windows hadn't been invented and the sea hadn't been discovered.
  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #18 - February 14, 2010, 02:32 PM


    This is the Afroasiatic family tree:

  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #19 - February 14, 2010, 02:38 PM

    The Semitic Languages (including Aramaic/Arabic) is not related to the Indo-european language.
    In Europe, Basque is also not related to the Indo-European languages.

    Then why do the e.g. Turkish, Maltese, Urdu languages share so many commonalities with Arabic?  Are you saying they are just borrowed words?

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  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #20 - February 14, 2010, 03:03 PM

    Quote
    Then why do the e.g. Turkish, Maltese, Urdu languages share so many commonalities with Arabic?  Are you saying they are just borrowed words?


    I'm not huplu..lol but It's probably borrowed. I think family groups are based on common ancestry rather than the amount of similar words languages share so for example just because a language like Kurdish has a lot of Arabic words in it, that's not enough to make Kurdish a Semitic language as Kurdish doesn't descend from proto-Semitic.
  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #21 - February 14, 2010, 03:07 PM

    Centuries of interactions between these cultures, and the enforcement of Arabic and Arabised scripts for Persian and Turkish etc under the Caliphates meant that some borrowing of many everyday words became inevitable.

    Looking at Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu etc are structured, minute influences probably but nothing major.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #22 - February 14, 2010, 03:10 PM

    Then why do the e.g. Turkish, Maltese, Urdu languages share so many commonalities with Arabic?  Are you saying they are just borrowed words?


    Because Brāhmī script came from Aramaic alphabet. 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C4%81hm%C4%AB_script
  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #23 - February 14, 2010, 03:15 PM

    Quote
    Because Brāhmī script came from Aramaic alphabet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C4%81hm%C4%AB_script


     Afro

    Yep, that's another influence as well.
  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #24 - February 14, 2010, 03:26 PM

    Then why do the e.g. Turkish, Maltese, Urdu languages share so many commonalities with Arabic?  Are you saying they are just borrowed words?

    Maltese is a Semitic language.
    The others borrow words - think of English which is a Germanic language but with a huge amount of borrowed French words.
  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #25 - February 14, 2010, 03:32 PM

    Maltese is a Semitic language.
    The others borrow words - think of English which is a Germanic language but with a huge amount of borrowed French words.



    Correct however what's interesting about Maltese is that it's the only Semitic language with Latin alpahbet. Which I think is derived from Greek which is derived from the Phoenician alpahbet.

    In fact this is the etymology of the word alphabet; alpha bet

    alphabet
        1560s (implied in alphabetical), from L.L. alphabetum (Tertullian), from Gk. alphabetos, from alpha + beta, the first two letters of it, from Heb.-Phoen. aleph, pausal form of eleph "ox" + beth, lit. "house;" the letters so called because their shapes resembled or represented those objects. The Greeks added -a to the end of many Heb.-Phoenician letter names because Gk. words cannot end in most consonants. Alphabet soup first attested 1907.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=alphabet
  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #26 - February 19, 2010, 10:54 AM



    mahanbharat.net/_/rsrc/1231068231387/articles/la/lang_tree.jpg


    This is not a reliable source -- for one thing, Dravidian languages most certainly do not derive from Sanskrit.  The site you got it from seems to be a Hindu nationalist site.

  • Re: Tasty languages [Split]
     Reply #27 - February 19, 2010, 03:10 PM

    shows the power of religion - it even involves itself with language, which in itself indirectly affects culture.

    I wonder whether christian countries also do the same?

    Check this tree.. looks like its different to what you are saying (I assume Hindi is where urdu would be as its missing)

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Why does it include dravidian languages? It can hardly be real, it seems like a hindu nationalist version. Complete with lacking their rival's language, who speaks a language very similar to Hindi (Urdu).


    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
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