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Theme Changer

 Topic: Goodbye and Thank you!

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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #30 - March 31, 2010, 03:21 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 31, 2010, 03:11 PM
    the way I see it is that as humans we have always tried out best to understand our environment and fit as best as we can into it.  Gernerations have come & gone, something we have learned, somethings were mistakes and were dropped.  Islam was one of those.  Its was sold as a truth, and now we have learned it was  a lie.

    Should we still use the plough to dig our fields and use a tractor?  I could understand if there were some parts of Islam that you like and still wish to follow. I think we all do that to some extent.  Some might even go as far as to call themselves a cultural muslim.  I get that - but not what you seem to be saying.


    Well I don't think we have to keep dumping our past, throwing it into the trash bin. Most of the history we have any connection with is very brief, 5,000 years or so, while we have been on Earth for 100s of thousands of years (our species). Mythology comes up again and again. There are a ton of modern mythologies. We watch movies and read books which take us into a mythological world, and I don't mean dragons and princesses, it can really be anything. And it all has meaning. Living mythologies like Islam mean a lot to people. If we can get our people to realize that it is a mythology to begin with, that would be a great step. After that who knows where it will go. Perhaps it will dwindle down to a few statues, paintings, and a college class or two idk. I say that in Islamic mythology we are interested in two things:

    (1) Clarifying the mythological, cultural, and historical origins of Islam, and (2) Extracting positive practices and ideas from the mythology of Islam.

    I find a lot of value in Islam, I am actually very happy to have it. I wish of course that people wouldn't take it so literally because they are causing a lot of suffering. That part I don't like, which is why I feel like it is my civic duty to do something about that.
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #31 - March 31, 2010, 03:22 PM
    are you a pantheist?
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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #32 - March 31, 2010, 03:23 PM
    No, I'm an Atheist.
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #33 - March 31, 2010, 03:28 PM
    then like I said earlier, why do you feel the need to focus on Islam exlusively.  Why not focus on all cultures and learn collectively from all their experiences?  You can see how that has helped us to date, and the problems with inwardly looking on just one e.g. see how the average persons cuisine has developed
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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #34 - March 31, 2010, 03:41 PM
    Well who said I don't take from other cultures? However, we all have our own culture and hobbies - things that speak to us - and for me my own cultural connection and hobby is Islam (Islamic mythology). In addition I see an advantage to focusing on one tradition instead of being only a jack of all traditions. This tradition is personal to me, my family has a long connection to it.
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #35 - March 31, 2010, 03:43 PM
    Do you live in the west IslamMythology?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #36 - March 31, 2010, 03:52 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 03:41 PM
    Well who said I don't take from other cultures? However, we all have our own culture and hobbies - things that speak to us - and for me my own cultural connection and hobby is Islam (Islamic mythology).

    You realise Islamic mythology was the work of one delusional desert Arab goat herder.  Why would you want to waste time analysing his works?  Wouldnt you rather focus on the works of Shakepeare, Muhammed Iqbal, Darwin, Einstein, Carl Sagan, Musa al-Sadr etc?
    Quote

    In addition I see an advantage to focusing on one tradition instead of being only a jack of all traditions. This tradition is personal to me, my family has a long connection to it.

    As long as you realise that by focusing on a narrow aspect of human experience, you will restrict and bias whatever you glean from it.
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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #37 - March 31, 2010, 04:00 PM
    Well Islam is much bigger than Muhammad. It is not restricted to Muhammad's works. And yes I have other interests, I love seeing Shakespeare's plays, Einstein and Carl Sagan on science, I absolutely love Anthropology which I consider to be absolutely critical to understanding religion btw, and many other things. None of those things compare to having a mythology though, none of them replace that. You know some people love Asian culture and mythology, some people love Persian, some love Irish, etc. I choose Islamic mythology and it has been part of my life for a very long time. I'm not a Muslim who must address everything strictly by what Islam says, so I don't feel narrowed at all. I interact with Islam freely.
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #38 - March 31, 2010, 04:00 PM
    I miss RIBS.   Cry
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #39 - March 31, 2010, 04:33 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 04:00 PM
    Well Islam is much bigger than Muhammad. It is not restricted to Muhammad's works. And yes I have other interests, I love seeing Shakespeare's plays, Einstein and Carl Sagan on science, I absolutely love Anthropology which I consider to be absolutely critical to understanding religion btw, and many other things. None of those things compare to having a mythology though, none of them replace that. You know some people love Asian culture and mythology, some people love Persian, some love Irish, etc. I choose Islamic mythology and it has been part of my life for a very long time. I'm not a Muslim who must address everything strictly by what Islam says, so I don't feel narrowed at all. I interact with Islam freely.

    I see -  personally I dont find mythology that interesting whether it be egyption, greek, islamic, but whatever rocks your boat I guess.  

    Perhaps you can share what you find so interesting about it with us?  Do you like the story of the mythical flying donkeys and talking ants?
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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #40 - March 31, 2010, 04:45 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 31, 2010, 04:33 PM
    I see -  personally I dont find mythology that interesting whether it be egyption, greek, islamic, but whatever rocks your boat I guess.  

    Perhaps you can share what you find so interesting about it with us?  Do you like the story of the mythical flying donkeys and talking ants?


    Like it or not it is part of your heritage, IsLame. You (rightly) reject it as literally true - as I do - but it helped shape who you and I are and some of the culture you value - just as Christianity helped shape Dawkins and some of the culture he values. (and he appreciates that!)
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #41 - March 31, 2010, 04:48 PM
    Honestly.. for a lot of us western born muslims.. did it really shape who we are?

    Personally letting go of Islam is pretty easy for me. Because I've been immersed in western culture and philosophy far more than I have in Islam. I've been an atheist for 5 years now and ethically/culturally speaking Islam doesn't have much practical impact on anything in my life. I've pretty much severed all my musulman links.

    And frankly, Islam doesn't even have much of a real effect on 90% of Muslims on the west. Its almost a bit contrived and artificial to see these totally western kids trying to pretend like Islam really does guide their moral values when they're moral values are in reality more linked to pop culture than it is to Islam.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #42 - March 31, 2010, 04:51 PM
    I was probably greatly influenced by Hollywood too, but I am not about to study its history.

    Islam helped shape me as much as anything else in my life did.  

    I mostly had to put a lot of it in reverse, because it was rubbish.  So I dont see why I still need to put it on a pedestal for learning from.  Being born as a Muslim was mere coincidence.  Had a been born a Hindu or Christian I would still have said exactly the same.
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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #43 - March 31, 2010, 04:52 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 31, 2010, 04:51 PM
    I was probably greatly influenced by Hollywood too, but I am not about to study its history.


    Hmmm, I would go as far as saying that perhaps Hollywood has been far more influential on my life than Islam has.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #44 - March 31, 2010, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 31, 2010, 04:48 PM
    Honestly.. for a lot of us western born muslims like us.. did it really shape who we are?

    Personally letting go of Islam is *really* easy for me. Because I've been immersed in western culture and philosophy far more than I have in Islam. I've been an atheist for 5 years now and ethically/culturally speaking Islam doesn't have much practical impact on anything in my life. I've pretty much severed all my musulman links.


    Fair point - and I am also very English. But there is another dimension to me that is not English. There was a time in my youth when I tried to hide my Egyptian/Islamic side under the carpet and say "I'm English" (sadly there were some English people who would not accept me as English no matter how hard I tried) - then I went the other way and said "I'm Arab/Muslim!" In the end I learnt that I am what I am - there is no need to fight against that. Your beliefs can be what you want them to be. But you can't deny the cultural influences on you - regardless of where they come from.

    Tell me honestly are you totally the sum of English/Christian/Western culture and heritage?
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #45 - March 31, 2010, 04:58 PM
    Actually I need to qualify what I said. Islam directly doesn't have much true influence on me.

    My bengali heritage on the other hand does. I guess I'm really a combo of western, immigrant + subcontinental stuff.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #46 - March 31, 2010, 04:59 PM
    And Islam had no influence on Bengali culture?
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #47 - March 31, 2010, 05:01 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 31, 2010, 04:45 PM
    Like it or not it is part of your heritage, IsLame. You (rightly) reject it as literally true - as I do - but it helped shape who you and I are and some of the culture you value - just as Christianity helped shape Dawkins and some of the culture he values. (and he appreciates that!)

    Also I think the cultural values I adhere to are not influenced by Islam - Islam is a religion, and few cultural aspects that I can think of that I still follow.  Those cultural values that I hold dear are a mix of Desi culture & British culture, + mix of all other cultures.  

    There are some good aspects to Islam, but whatever good it preaches is pretty much universal and obvious, just like other religions.  In fact these religions learned all of these things from humanity in the first place, so all we seem to be doing here is reverse engineering here and assuming religion did all the hard work.  

    Why do you think Islam "helped shape" me?
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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #48 - March 31, 2010, 05:01 PM
    @Hassan
    Oh yeah, sorry I meant to add that Islam does have a strong influence on me but its more via the filters of bengali culture.

    Islam is definitely intrinsically a part of Muslim Bengali culture and history. But like most Bengalis, we do place a greater emphasis bengali culture than the islamic aspect. Islam is just an element in the Bengali mosaic. An important one of course. But still we have lots of hindu, buddhist and secular influences as well.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #49 - March 31, 2010, 05:03 PM
    .
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #50 - March 31, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 31, 2010, 05:01 PM
    Also I think the cultural values I adhere to are not influenced by Islam - Islam is a religion, and few cultural aspects that I can think of that I still follow.  Those cultural values that I hold dear are a mix of Desi culture & British culture, + mix of all other cultures.  

    There are some good aspects to Islam, but whatever good it preaches is pretty much universal and obvious, just like other religions.  In fact these religions learned all of these things from humanity in the first place, so all we seem to be doing here is reverse engineering here and assuming religion did all the hard work.  

    Why do you think Islam "helped shape" me?


    Because Islam helped shape the culture you grew up in.
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #51 - March 31, 2010, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 31, 2010, 05:01 PM
    @Hassan
    Oh yeah, sorry I meant to add that Islam does have a strong influence on me but its more via the filters of bengali culture.

    Islam is definitely intrinsically a part of Muslim Bengali culture and history. But like most Bengalis, we do place a greater emphasis bengali culture than the islamic aspect. Islam is just an element in the Bengali mosaic. An important one of course. But still we have lots of hindu, buddhist and secular influences as well.



    And that's what most cultures do.
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #52 - March 31, 2010, 05:07 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 31, 2010, 05:04 PM
    And that's what most cultures do.


    One of the things I found always kind of ironic is how lots of modern muslims decry "cultural islam". What they don't seem to realize is that their native cultures often filtered and diluted Islam into something more humane and tolerant than what the actual dogma teaches. If anything they should be praising "cultural islam"!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #53 - March 31, 2010, 05:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 31, 2010, 04:53 PM
    Fair point - and I am also very English. But there is another dimension to me that is not English. There was a time in my youth when I tried to hide my Egyptian/Islamic side under the carpet and say "I'm English" (sadly there were some English people who would not accept me as English no matter how hard I tried) - then I went the other way and said "I'm Arab/Muslim!" In the end I learnt that I am what I am - there is no need to fight against that. Your beliefs can be what you want them to be. But you can't deny the cultural influences on you - regardless of where they come from.

    Tell me honestly are you totally the sum of English/Christian/Western culture and heritage?


    This additional dimension you speak of partly being an Islamic side - Are you saying you still feel this?  Perhaps you do and it had a greater impact on you, but you cant talk for me.

    Would you say you are still a cultural muslim?  If you are then I can see where you are coming from.  

    Otherwise today you could argue that I am greatly influenced by Thai culture as I had Thai food for dinner and listened to some Thai music, yet did nothing remotely related to Islamic customs/culture.
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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #54 - March 31, 2010, 05:12 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 31, 2010, 05:10 PM
    Otherwise today you could argue that I am greatly influenced by Thai culture as I had Thai food for dinner and listened to some Thai music, yet did nothing remotely related to Islamic customs/culture.


    I looked at Thai p0rn today.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #55 - March 31, 2010, 05:19 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 31, 2010, 05:10 PM
    This additional dimension you speak of partly being an Islamic side - Are you saying you still feel this?  Perhaps you do and it had a greater impact on you, but you cant talk for me.


    OK sorry. I didn't mean to speak for you. But yes I have a lot of Islamic influence - I can't deny it. Although of course I believe Islam is false and strongly reject all the odious beliefs - there are still aspects - maybe more cultural - that I retain.
     You say you don't - that's fine. Smiley I certainly don't feel the need to deny any influences on me - certainly not to please anyone else or prove my credentials to bigots.
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #56 - March 31, 2010, 05:20 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 31, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Because Islam helped shape the culture you grew up in.

    I am not sure that it did - I look at non-muslim middle class desi kids raised in the UK, and the culture they were raised in was almost exactly the same as mine.  And it got further pruned as I got older.  I think you might be confusing culture with religion.
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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #57 - March 31, 2010, 05:24 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 31, 2010, 05:20 PM
    I am not sure that it did - I look at non-muslim middle class desi kids raised in the UK, and the culture they were raised in was almost exactly the same as mine.  And it got further pruned as I got older.  I think you might be confusing culture with religion.


    Maybe - but is culture not confused with religion? Can you truly say you were only influenced by non-Islamic influenced culture?
  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #58 - March 31, 2010, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 31, 2010, 05:19 PM
    OK, sorry.

    You dont need to apologise - I just dont think its true.  

    If it was I'd be the first to admit it.  There might be some small part of me that has been influenced by Muhammeds teachings, but cant think of anything significant. Believe me I am not consciously trying to eradicate anything Islamic in my life as you might think.  If there is anything positive, then I would be only to happy to take it, wherever it comes from.  But I believe that I have been more influenced now by youtube videos that I have watched than Islam Cheesy

    I dont suffer from an identity confusion, I dont even know if I have one, I just identify myself by my name.

    Tell me how you think you have been specifically influenced by Islam and whether you identify yourself as a cultural Muslim, or what you identify yourself as.
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  • Re: Goodbye and Thank you!
     Reply #59 - March 31, 2010, 05:32 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 31, 2010, 05:19 PM
    I certainly don't feel the need to deny any influences on me - certainly not to please anyone else or prove my credentials to bigots.

    Neither do I if thats what you are inferring
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