Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 07:58 AM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 15, 2024, 06:36 AM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 13, 2024, 05:18 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 04, 2024, 03:51 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

New Britain
October 30, 2024, 08:34 PM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
October 22, 2024, 09:05 PM

Tariq Ramadan Accused of ...
September 11, 2024, 01:37 PM

France Muslims were in d...
September 05, 2024, 03:21 PM

Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: It's in the title ;P
  • Only Islamic schools should be closed down - 2 (6.9%)
  • All religious schools should be closed down - 24 (82.8%)
  • No religious schools should be closed down - 3 (10.3%)
  • Total Voters: 29

 Topic: Should religious schools be closed down?

 (Read 12912 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Should religious schools be closed down?
     OP - February 16, 2010, 05:07 PM

    Maybe I'm a bit hardline in my views, but I am firmly in the "religious schools are outdated and divisive" camp, especially when it comes to islamic schools.

    I just feel that dividing children based on religion is wrong, and a childs early years are the most influential in it's life, I see it as better to have exposure to children from all walks of life, then to only know people of your same religion in order to better grow into a person who appreciates all flavours of humanity.

    If it was possible, I would have them all closed down, and all schools as purely secular places for children to learn in.  I do believe in religious education as part of lessons involving learning about the world and it's history, but not teaching children their religion, when it's not their religion yet, just something you and the parents have chosen for them.

    I think even more that islamic schools are more insular than others, and with the particular combination of learning arabic, and the quran, you have a growing number of the new generation who are more inclined to view the world in a kaffir vs us mentality.

    Where do you stand and why?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #1 - February 16, 2010, 05:17 PM

    2 - i'm a hardline secularist, religion should be treated like all other propoganda and should be left at home (or preferably back in the caves from where they originated from)..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #2 - February 16, 2010, 05:30 PM

    I dunno Berbs. I'd probably err against it. How do you see religious schools being closed down exactly? I mean, how would the government go about closing them down? And would this include, say, Quaker schools? If not, how would the government objectively decide which religious schools could stay open and which must be closed? Also, what about religious education that isn't a full time school? Like Sunday School or Vacation Bible School-- shit like that?

    I just don't know. I can see both sides of the issue. The hardline secularist in me says not just to close them down, but to fuckin burn them down to stop them from brainwashing any more kids.

    But the libertarian in me isn't comfortable with state-mandated compulsory education in the first place, and even less comfortable with the state having a monopoly on compulsory education, and I'm also uncomfortable with the state limiting the free exercise of religion.

    Again, probably would err against it, but I'm not entirely sure.

    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #3 - February 16, 2010, 05:42 PM

    No, vacation bible madness, sunday loony tunes and friday madness outside of school hours is fine.  It's day time, everyday school that I take issue with.

    I actually favour mandatory schooling, I know far too many kids who wouldn;t even know how to tie a shoelace, let alone read due to useless uniterested parents, that mandatory schooling is their only hope.

    I was so happy my parents had no choice but to send me to school, that law worked in my favour, less hours at home, less abuse.  Tongue

    I went to a community school, not a religious school.  I truly believe that it helped shape the person I am, and why it was so hard for me to ever see non muslims in the negative light many other muslims do.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #4 - February 16, 2010, 06:00 PM

    Don't see the point in them really. State schools encourage the same if not better values in children.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #5 - February 16, 2010, 06:04 PM

    I dunno Berbs. I'd probably err against it. How do you see religious schools being closed down exactly? I mean, how would the government go about closing them down? And would this include, say, Quaker schools? If not, how would the government objectively decide which religious schools could stay open and which must be closed? Also, what about religious education that isn't a full time school? Like Sunday School or Vacation Bible School-- shit like that?

    I just don't know. I can see both sides of the issue. The hardline secularist in me says not just to close them down, but to fuckin burn them down to stop them from brainwashing any more kids.

    But the libertarian in me isn't comfortable with state-mandated compulsory education in the first place, and even less comfortable with the state having a monopoly on compulsory education, and I'm also uncomfortable with the state limiting the free exercise of religion.

    Again, probably would err against it, but I'm not entirely sure.


    "How" is another issue, but what is your principled stand on the fact that should they be closed or not ?

    It's just like the question that, should there be a death penalty or not, now enforcing it is a different matter one can discuss that as well but, there should be principled stance as well. It's about "Do you see that religious schools are harming people or giving them some kind of benefit ?"
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #6 - February 16, 2010, 06:15 PM

    .I actually favour mandatory schooling, I know far too many kids who wouldn;t even know how to tie a shoelace, let alone read due to useless uniterested parents, that mandatory schooling is their only hope.

    I was so happy my parents had no choice but to send me to school, that law worked in my favour, less hours at home, less abuse.  Tongue


    All good points.

    Quote
    I went to a community school, not a religious school.  I truly believe that it helped shape the person I am, and why it was so hard for me to ever see non muslims in the negative light many other muslims do.


    Another good point. My aunt and uncle are born-again Christians and for a long time were "home-schooling" their kids, and the only other kids they really interacted with were kids from the same home-school/church group when they set up various social activities. That, along with strict media censorship by the parents, makes me wonder just how warped their fuckin worldview is gonna be, not having interacted with anyone their own age from different backgrounds, religions, families, ideologies, races, classes, etc.-- the only experience they'll have is with other white kids from right-wing Christian middle income families. Sad, really.

    "How" is another issue,


    How is a very important question-- not just on pragmatic grounds, but on principled grounds as well. If the closing of religious schools results in heavy-handed government tactics, mass imprisonments, and only results in radicalizing and further isolating religious people (Muslim in particular, but anyone really) from the rest of society, then there is good reason to oppose the method on principle.

    Quote
    but what is your principled stand on the fact that should they be closed or not ?


    I already answered that as best I could. I'm torn and unsure, but I'd tend to err against it.

    Quote
    It's just like the question that, should there be a death penalty or not, now enforcing it is a different matter one can discuss that as well but, there should be principled stance as well.


    Again, I think you are falsely separating method and principle. If people are buried alive for credit card fraud, and the innocent are executed along with the guilty, one might have a different "principled stance" than if execution is reserved solely for the most dangerous of murderers, is carried out humanely through firing squad or lethal injection, and procedural protections are in place to prevent innocent people from being falsely convicted and punished.

    Quote
    It's about "Do you see that religious schools are harming people or giving them some kind of benefit ?"


    One could easily say that religious schools are harming people but still stand on principle against the state shutting them down. Just like one could say heroin is harmful but should be decriminalized on principle.

    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #7 - February 16, 2010, 06:20 PM

    Religious schools separate children based on the religion of their parents thereby actively dividing a society along religious (often ethnic as well) lines.

    .. and I'm also uncomfortable with the state limiting the free exercise of religion.

    You know Q in an ideal world I would agree with you however there is a price that has to be paid for such free exercise of religion.
    Problem is that you or I are not paying the price, those kids forced into religious schools are!


  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #8 - February 16, 2010, 06:25 PM


    How is a very important question-- not just on pragmatic grounds, but on principled grounds as well. If the closing of religious schools results in heavy-handed government tactics, mass imprisonments, and only results in radicalizing and further isolating religious people (Muslim in particular, but anyone really) from the rest of society, then there is good reason to oppose the method on principle.

    I already answered that as best I could. I'm torn and unsure, but I'd tend to err against it.

    Again, I think you are falsely separating method and principle. If people are buried alive for credit card fraud, and the innocent are executed along with the guilty, one might have a different "principled stance" than if execution is reserved solely for the most dangerous of murderers, is carried out humanely through firing squad or lethal injection, and procedural protections are in place to prevent innocent people from being falsely convicted and punished.

    One could easily say that religious schools are harming people but still stand on principle against the state shutting them down. Just like one could say heroin is harmful but should be decriminalized on principle.



    you have some very good points, you in fact made me rethink on my stance as well..
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #9 - February 16, 2010, 06:27 PM


    You know Q in an ideal world I would agree with you




    Same as.  yes

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #10 - February 16, 2010, 06:40 PM

    You know Q in an ideal world I would agree with you however there is a price that has to be paid for such free exercise of religion.
    Problem is that you or I are not paying the price, those kids forced into religious schools are!


    Yeah, I know, which is one of the reasons that although I err against it, I'm not entirely certain of my stance on this issue.

    Here's the difficulty as I see it-- even taking the social impact of allowing vs. banning religious schools out of the equation, you are still left with a dilemma over the individual good of the child vs. the individual rights of the parents. On the one hand, I think children are probably harmed by the bigoted and ignorant indoctrination and social segregation found in many (though certainly not all) religious schools, but do the parents not also have the right to teach their children their religious, social, cultural, and ideological values as they please, without government interference? If you allow the government the right to shut down Islamic schools, then where does it end?

    It's a fuckin tough one, man. I'd need more info to make a decisive judgment on the matter. For one, what would be the specific standard by which religious schools are shut down? After all, there are plenty of good Quaker schools out there that give kids an excellent education, better than most public schools-- would we want them shut down too? If not, how would the state justify favoring one religious institution over another? And secondly, how would such a ban be implemented and what are the potential consequences of that implementation? It may cause more harm than good in the final analysis.

    As it stands now, I'm VERY, VERY wary of giving the state any further powers. They have too much as it is, and regularly abuse it.

    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #11 - February 16, 2010, 06:45 PM



    Here's the difficulty as I see it-- even taking the social impact of allowing vs. banning religious schools out of the equation, you are still left with a dilemma over the individual good of the child vs. the individual rights of the parents. On the one hand, I think children are probably harmed by the bigoted and ignorant indoctrination and social segregation found in many (though certainly not all) religious schools, but do the parents not also have the right to teach their children their religious, social, cultural, and ideological values as they please, without government interference? If you allow the government the right to shut down Islamic schools, then where does it end?



    Aren't the rights of the parents still there because no one is saying they can't teach their children about their religion at home, or evening clubs, weekend classes etc?


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #12 - February 16, 2010, 06:58 PM

    Yeah, I guess you're right, Berbs.

    It's just that as negative of a knee-jerk reaction I have anytime the topic of religion is brought up, I have an even more negative knee-jerk reaction when the topic of a state ban on personal activity comes up. Most of the time when the government bans something, not only does it result in a further limit on liberty, but it also tends to be ineffective and can cause more harm than good.

    I suppose I could be convinced to support the closure of such schools if I could be convinced it will be effective at achieving its goals, and that it wouldn't cause more harm than good. Again, the minimum information I'd need is (1) what standard the state would use for prohibiting such schools (for example, would schools that are run by religious organizations, but are not limited to adherents to that religion and offer mostly, if not entirely, secular instruction-- like many Catholic and Quaker schools be included in the ban?), and (2) how the state would implement the ban, and what the potential consequences of implementing the ban would be.

    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #13 - February 16, 2010, 07:03 PM

    the problem with religious interference is that it is also detrimental and causes confusion and resistance to scientific teaching e.g. creationism vs evolutionism

    Religion & state have to be SEPARATE

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #14 - February 16, 2010, 07:08 PM

    Religion & state have to be SEPARATE


    Sure, but this topic only relates to separation of church and state if you think the state should have complete and exclusive control over the education of children. If education were solely a function of the state, I'd say it was relevant, but it's not solely the function of the state in any Western society I am aware of. Even in France, which is often promoted as a model of secular society, Catholic schools still play a big role in education. There are also non-religious private schools. Or schools run by religious institutions that have solely secular instruction.

    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #15 - February 16, 2010, 07:13 PM

    Whoa I can't believe how many voted for schools to be shut down!

    Are you guys serious?

    I vote No. I would never send my kids to one, because the quality of education usually sucks. But I don't want to live in a society where we can't have private schools. On the very least the education should be regulated to a certain extent. We can't have kids growing up all fucked up.

    But a total shut down? Never.

    What's next shutting down home schooling?

  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #16 - February 16, 2010, 07:14 PM

    Sure, but this topic only relates to separation of church and state if you think the state should have complete and exclusive control over the education of children. If education were solely a function of the state, I'd say it was relevant, but it's not solely the function of the state in any Western society I am aware of. Even in France, which is often promoted as a model of secular society, Catholic schools still play a big role in education. There are also non-religious private schools. Or schools run by religious institutions that have solely secular instruction.


    Plus fucking 1
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #17 - February 16, 2010, 08:37 PM

    But I don't want to live in a society where we can't have private schools.


    Not having religious schools is not the same as not having private schools. In fact I am disgusted by the fact that taxpayer’s money is being spent on religious schools which are intrinsically divisive. Children are educated, often from a very early age with members from a religious in-group and separately from other children. Religious schools = mostly segregated schools. As far as I am aware huge grants were made available to those who wanted to establish religious schools under Tony Blair. For example Emmanuelle College was such a school established at that time where literal Biblical creationism (cretinism) was taught. Rich benefactors were encouraged to put up a relatively small amounts (£2 mil.) and this in turn bough a larger amount of taxpayers money (£20 mil.); this gives the benefactors the right to control the ethos of the school and to appoint the majority of the school governors and the right to dictate policy for exclusion or inclusion of pupils. Basically there is little control over the sort of crap that is being thought in these schools not to mention the fact that they are basically abusing the minds of the pupils they were supposed to educate.

  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #18 - February 16, 2010, 09:05 PM

    The choices in the poll were quite limited, but I voted 2 cuz it is closer to what I think.
    What I would opt for is
    1. Closing all state-funded religious schools, or turn them private, but allow already-private religious schools to continue.
    2. A rigorous inspection of what is being taught at these schools. Any questionable content in the curriculum that could encourage extremism and racism should mean the school is shut down, not just warned and asked to change the curriculum, this would mean the schools will think twice before they teach anything. I am not sure if creationism/ID bullshit should be considered questionable content though.



    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #19 - February 16, 2010, 09:08 PM

    The choices in the poll were quite limited, but I voted 2 cuz it is closer to what I think.
    What I would opt for is
    1. Closing all state-funded religious schools, or turn them private, but allow already-private religious schools to continue.
    2. A rigorous inspection of what is being taught at these schools. Any questionable content in the curriculum that could encourage extremism and racism should mean the school is shut down, not just warned and asked to change the curriculum, this would mean the schools will think twice before they teach anything. I am not sure if creationism/ID bullshit should be considered questionable content though.





    +1
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #20 - February 16, 2010, 09:27 PM

    I agree with Infidel. The poll should have included an option for withdrawing state funding of religious schools. That is something I would be in favour of.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #21 - February 16, 2010, 09:27 PM

    The choices in the poll were quite limited, but I voted 2 cuz it is closer to what I think.
    What I would opt for is
    1. Closing all state-funded religious schools, or turn them private, but allow already-private religious schools to continue.
    2. A rigorous inspection of what is being taught at these schools. Any questionable content in the curriculum that could encourage extremism and racism should mean the school is shut down, not just warned and asked to change the curriculum, this would mean the schools will think twice before they teach anything. I am not sure if creationism/ID bullshit should be considered questionable content though.


    Oh-- I'd be all for that, especially number one. But, then again, we don't have any state-funded religious schools in the US as far as I'm aware. Pretty sure that violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution (and as incorporated through the 14th Amendment)-- the Supreme Court has even banned student-led group prayer on school grounds during regular instructional times (though they can do so on school grounds at extracurricular activities or on breaks). Even state funding for religious charities is a highly controversial topic here.

    Yeah, state-funded religious schools-- fuck that. I didn't even think of that when I first read the OP. Then again, I keep forgetting how other countries aren't as awesome as the US.  dance Well, except for your healthcare funding system-- I'll give ya that.

    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #22 - February 16, 2010, 09:29 PM

    I love America. Well when Q-Man starts talking about the Amendments. I watch CNN and US foreign policy at work I start re-thinking that claim. I watch Fox News and I remain quite content to stay in Europe.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #23 - February 16, 2010, 09:34 PM

    Yeah, but make no mistake-- the Europeans do draw some benefits from our big military dick. Our government helps keep the cost of Third World labor and resources relatively low, allowing for lesser exploitation of labor in the developed world and cheap consumer goods, and you don't have to spend as much on your own military budgets because you know the US will protect you, so you have more money for social programs.

    I'm not sayin it's right, but I do think Europeans often ignore the benefits they get from their militaristic, imperialist big Uncle Sam.

    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #24 - February 16, 2010, 10:01 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQzuFrMRA3M

    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #25 - February 16, 2010, 10:02 PM

    ^^^ The above clip shows Dawkins arguing with a crazy mullah who supports faith school. I heat Dawkins.

    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #26 - February 16, 2010, 10:05 PM

    I'm not sayin it's right, but I do think Europeans often ignore the benefits they get from their militaristic, imperialist big Uncle Sam.

    Couldn’t agree more! This is one of the main reasons I find shallow anti-Americanism so stupid.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #27 - February 17, 2010, 03:10 AM

    I voted 2 for a completely different reason. I simply believe parents do NOT have an automatic right to teach their children whatever they want. How the hell did we devise this concept in the first place?
    This is not only about education, it's about parents making choices that negatively affect their children's well being. I mean CPS can now take a child from their parents for a variety of reasons, why not add bad education to these reasons? what if a parent decided not to teach their home-schooled child the multiplication table? should we respect their choices?

    Don't get me wrong I don't want all religious schools to be closed for not all religious schools are bad. I just want all bad schools to be closed/reformed. Bad can mean anything, it can mean schools that teach hate-stirring, racist, or religiously-fundamentalist material; schools that aren't doing well academically; or schools where children are abused. Oh and that includes both private and state-funded schools.


    This topic got me thinking about state intervention. So please check my thread on this issue and discuss.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #28 - February 17, 2010, 11:14 PM

    . Then again, I keep forgetting how other countries aren't as awesome as the US.  dance Well, except for your healthcare funding system-- I'll give ya that.

    Really Q? it's only the healthcare system? 
    Wouldn't it be awesome to live in a country where gay marriage is legal as opposed to a country where it was popularly rejected in every single state that has had a referendum on it ?

    That's just one example. I'm sure I can think of many more things.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #29 - February 17, 2010, 11:25 PM

    America is better than every other country on earth. Period.

    I don't even know why people argue about this stuff. I'm Canadian, but I don't have any pretensions about where the party is really at.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »