FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #480 - February 24, 2010, 05:31 PM

Quote from: skynightblaze on February 24, 2010, 05:23 PM
I dont agree with the bolded part. Debating the muslims still remains the major focus at FFI. Well if educating the west was more the aim of Faithfreedom then Ali sina or we wouldnt be debating muslims.I think everyone needs to know that islam is dangerous because that would prevent them from converting them to islam and also educating more people helps in spreading the knowledge across the world and thereby save people from the path towards doom.

You might not agree with it, but I've seen a few posts over at FFI, where someone suggests that FFI's tactics do nothing do help muslims leave islam, and an FFI member will claim that this is not FFI's purpose anymore.

I can't find the posts, it would take too long, but I assure you this has been said before.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #481 - February 24, 2010, 05:32 PM

@Yeezevee

I aint blaming you. I just said that I wasnt the one who used his videos as you rightly pointed out that he generalized everyone for using his videos.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #482 - February 24, 2010, 05:34 PM

Quote
@Yeezevee

I aint blaming you.

..oops did i put any wrong words there? I am sleeping and typing dear SKB.. I see lot of spell mistakes there.. What did I say??

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #483 - February 24, 2010, 05:37 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on February 24, 2010, 05:31 PM
You might not agree with it, but I've seen a few posts over at FFI, where someone suggests that FFI's tactics do nothing do help muslims leave islam, and an FFI member will claim that this is not FFI's purpose anymore.

I can't find the posts, it would take too long, but I assure you this has been said before.

I have no clue about this but the question is how many supported that idea? Thats important. One or two people ranting cant represent FFI .
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #484 - February 24, 2010, 05:41 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 24, 2010, 05:34 PM
..oops did i put any wrong words there? I am sleeping and typing dear SKB.. I see lot of spell mistakes there.. What did I say??

I thought you were trying to defend yourself from me. It appeared from the tone of your post . May be I was wrong. You know you are the last person who anyone can have issues with .Ofcourse some muslims thing that you are a whore and what not . You are too polite and sometimes I feel that you would have made a good saint.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #485 - February 24, 2010, 05:43 PM

It's in the "about us" section too:

Quote
It is an endeavour from FFI to reach out to the world in order to spread its message and to make humanity aware of the real threat Islam poses to the freedom of thought, freedom of action and the spirit of discovery every free human being possesses.

http://faithfreedom.org/content/prologue-0

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #486 - February 24, 2010, 05:45 PM

Quote
You might not agree with it, but I've seen a few posts over at FFI, where someone suggests that FFI's tactics do nothing do help muslims leave islam, and an FFI member will claim that this is not FFI's purpose anymore.

I can't find the posts, it would take too long, but I assure you this has been said before.

dear Moroccan BerberElla

I wonder what actually leaving Islam means?? could you explain me a bit

in my mind It has as many meanings as that of number of Muslims the planet has, . around eight months., I told a granad ma whose wonderful sister died in very silly accident., The accident was silly , even a Pet DOG would have said her life

So., I said to her "There is no Allah" other wise Allah would saved her from that bizarre incident., She was crying like anything as she lost her only sister .., Now she stops ever thing and comes to me to explain what is Allah and why he took her away., and why I should be respectable to Allah all the time.

If I told her what I write on web, that 80 year old would have beaten me with sticks right there and then..

the point is Educating people about Islam is more important than asking them to leave Islam..

with best wishes
yeezevee

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #487 - February 24, 2010, 05:49 PM

Quote from: skynightblaze on February 24, 2010, 04:46 PM
@Hassan

I dont think I would after reading your thoughts.

Cool - and I give you credit for making that clear and proving you are not a hypocrite

It would be nice to hear that Ansar and any others who mock my methods would never ever use anything I write, blog or put on youtube - ever!

I wonder if he will make the same clarification as you have SkyN?
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #488 - February 24, 2010, 05:49 PM

BerberElla gives an interesting link of ffi

http://faithfreedom.org/content/prologue-0

What part of that link you don't approve and you don't like and if you were to write that how would you modify it dear BerberElla

Just curious

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #489 - February 24, 2010, 05:52 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 24, 2010, 05:22 PM
More over I NEVER INSULTED Hassan for his anti Islamic videos, In fact many times i commended his method of educating people over others... I still consider Hassan's contribution to educate Muslim folks and no-Muslim folks is extremely important and a very good method

Which is why I have no problem with you recommending my vids
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #490 - February 24, 2010, 06:00 PM

Quote from: BerberElla
It's in the "about us" section too:

It is an endeavour from FFI to reach out to the world in order to spread its message and to make humanity aware of the real threat Islam poses to the freedom of thought, freedom of action and the spirit of discovery every free human being possesses.

http://faithfreedom.org/content/prologue-0

Humanity = Muslims + Non muslims. Where does it say its aim is more towards educating non muslims more or educating muslims less? From the word humanity it isnt clear whom FFI favours educating more . Yes its for both because both need to be aware.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #491 - February 24, 2010, 06:08 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 24, 2010, 05:45 PM
dear Moroccan BerberElla

wtf

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #492 - February 24, 2010, 06:21 PM

@ Berbs

Quote
Recently I've seen a few posts suggesting this is no longer the role of FFI, rather it's taken on a more "warn the west" about islam aspect, which is where we veer off in different directions.

If that was FFI's goal I would have had no problem with it at all... but the fact is, many posts are becoming like: invade the Muslim lands before the Muslim hordes invades the West! WTF? What does invading the Muslim lands have to do with protecting the West from Muslims? If the message was truly to keep Muslims contained within their own borders I would had no problem with it at all.. unfortunately, that's not FFI's message... their message is becoming: "apostate or we shall invade your countries... and it's really good that you won't apostate, since we really need to control that gigantic oil basin of yours!"

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #493 - February 24, 2010, 09:11 PM

Quote from: skynightblaze on February 24, 2010, 06:00 PM
Humanity = Muslims + Non muslims. Where does it say its aim is more towards educating non muslims more or educating muslims less? From the word humanity it isnt clear whom FFI favours educating more . Yes its for both because both need to be aware.

Skynightblaze, do you think we are fools? Everyone know when FFI or Sina says: "humanity" they do not include Muslims, as they do not think Muslims can be human while following Islam.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #494 - February 24, 2010, 09:13 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 06:21 PM
If that was FFI's goal I would have had no problem with it at all... but the fact is, many posts are becoming like: invade the Muslim lands before the Muslim hordes invades the West!

exactly

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #495 - February 25, 2010, 02:23 AM

Quote from: King Tut on February 24, 2010, 09:11 PM
Skynightblaze, do you think we are fools? Everyone know when FFI or Sina says: "humanity" they do not include Muslims, as they do not think Muslims can be human while following Islam.

If according to you our definition of word "Humanity" doesnt include muslims then why the hell are there so many debates with muslims on the site? Why the hell do you think I and many others spend time in debating muslims?. Also I would like to correct you here that you cannot be a good human being if you are following islam in its entirety because it means supporting the killing of disbelievers for not believing in islam,killing apostates,cutting hands of thieves, raping slaves of war,hating the non muslims.If you do these things then you are a good muslim.One can be a good human being by cherry picking good stuff from islam but then he cannot be a good muslim .Please understand that good muslim and good human beings are oxymorons.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #496 - February 25, 2010, 10:26 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on February 24, 2010, 05:31 PM
You might not agree with it, but I've seen a few posts over at FFI, where someone suggests that FFI's tactics do nothing do help muslims leave islam, and an FFI member will claim that this is not FFI's purpose anymore.

I can't find the posts, it would take too long, but I assure you this has been said before.

I have seen such posts too, and even I might have said that sometime (I don't exactly remember). But mostly these comments are in response to either Muslims trying to mock FFI by saying that it is having no effect on Muslims or some prominent non Muslim (mostly the politicians) behaving like Dhimmis (not at FFI) by refusing to acknowledge that Islam is dangerous.

Context IS important sometimes

Edit: What I meant was that I have seen some statements which say that the goal of FFI is to educate the non Muslim world about the dangers of Islam.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #497 - February 25, 2010, 12:04 PM

Quote from: skynightblaze on February 25, 2010, 02:23 AM
If you do these things then you are a good muslim.One can be a good human being by cherry picking good stuff from islam but then he cannot be a good muslim .Please understand that good muslim and good human beings are oxymorons.

There's nothing wrong with cherry-picking, it might be intellectually dishonest but christians have been doing it for years and you are happy to include them into "humanity". So why cant you afford muslims the same priviledge as the majority lead peaceful and mutually respectful lives. By all means have issues with Islam the ideology, but by no means extrapolate this to 1.5-2 billion people across the globe - the vast majority (I would say 99%!) of whom know less than us about what is contained in their scriptures..

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #498 - February 25, 2010, 12:17 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 25, 2010, 12:04 PM
There's nothing wrong with cherry-picking, it might be intellectually dishonest but christians have been doing it for years and you are happy to include them into "humanity". So why cant you afford muslims the same priviledge as the majority lead peaceful and mutually respectful lives. By all means have issues with Islam the ideology, but by no means extrapolate this to 1.5-2 billion people across the globe - the vast majority (I would say 99%!) of whom know less than us about what is contained in their scriptures..

I find this insistence on FFI that a "good Muslim is not a good human being" the most evil and pernicious of all the things they say - and it comes directly from Ali Sina - and most on there subscribe to it.

Now some will explain they mean the extremists - not ordinary peaceful Muslims who they don't regard as "Good Muslims". But this principle is lapped up by others who either don't have a clue what the difference is or who are not bothered about making any distinction. (Even if they had the brain cells to do so!)

Extreme groups and bigots can now feel totally justified in beating up the praying/bearded Paki next doo - "Hey, he's a 'Good Muslim' - so the bastard is not even human - I'm doing the world a service getting rid of this vermin!"

When it comes to the reality, most people on the ground will look at a Muslim who prays and has a beard/wears hijab as a "Good Muslim".

Hey presto! You have just dehumanized most Muslims!
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #499 - February 25, 2010, 12:55 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 25, 2010, 12:04 PM
By all means have issues with Islam the ideology, but by no means extrapolate this to 1.5-2 billion people across the globe - the vast majority (I would say 99%!) of whom know less than us about what is contained in their scriptures..

And yet, without even knowing what is contained in their scriptures, they strongly identify with the ummah and celebrate at disasters like 9/11. Without even knowing anything about the world politics, USA is considered enemy by most of them.

They don't need to know what is there in their scriptures, Hassan. The mullahs of their mosques tell them enough to define their relationship with the rest of the world.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #500 - February 25, 2010, 12:56 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 25, 2010, 12:04 PM
There's nothing wrong with cherry-picking, it might be intellectually dishonest but christians have been doing it for years and you are happy to include them into "humanity". So why cant you afford muslims the same priviledge as the majority lead peaceful and mutually respectful lives. By all means have issues with Islam the ideology, but by no means extrapolate this to 1.5-2 billion people across the globe - the vast majority (I would say 99%!) of whom know less than us about what is contained in their scriptures..

I would have no problems had ALL muslims cherry picked good stuff and rejected the rest of the crap. Most muslims might be even doing that and I have no problem with that however the problem doesnt end here because a very few among those 2 billion muslims actually follow the true evil teachings of islam or turn into evil beasts within days . I gave Hassan an example that even if we assume that 0.001 % of 1.2 billion which is approx 10000 follow those teachings the world is a danger place to live in so in such a case what do we do? The obvious answer is to uproot islam from this planet. If those 1.2 billion people are not opposed for their views then there is a chance that some among them might actually take up a job in a jihadi agency to blow themselves for their religion .Now we dont know who among those 1.2 billion might turn out to be a terrorist so the need to oppose every muslim for his religion arises. Christians on the other hand dont bomb in the name of their religion and thats why I have no problems with christians following their religion till the time they dont pick something from their religion and use it to kill me .
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #501 - February 25, 2010, 01:02 PM

Quote from: skynightblaze on February 25, 2010, 12:56 PM
I would have no problems had ALL muslims cherry picked good stuff and rejected the rest of the crap. Most muslims might be even doing that and I have no problem with that however the problem doesnt end here because a very few among those 2 billion muslims actually follow the true evil teachings of islam or turn into evil beasts within days . I gave Hassan an example that even if we assume that 0.001 % of 1.2 billion which is approx 10000 follow those teachings the world is a danger place to live in so in such a case what do we do? The obvious answer is to uproot islam from this planet. If those 1.2 billion people are not opposed for their views then there is a chance that some among them might actually take up a job in a jihadi agency to blow themselves for their religion .Now we dont know who among those 1.2 billion might turn out to be a terrorist so the need to oppose every muslim for his religion arises. Christians on the other hand dont bomb in the name of their religion and thats why I have no problems with christians following their religion till the time they dont pick something from their religion and use it to kill me .

I agree with a lot of what you have said, particualrly as it seems you focus you hatred on the ideology of Islam and not muslims per se, like CharlesMartel just did.

Just for the record, and I have said this before, there is no doubt in my mind that Christianity has more successfully neutered than Islam. There are a number of reasons for this such as its been around for longer, its been thorugh an enlightenment, and God is not meant to have written the Bible so its less agreable to change.

Quote from: charlesmartel on February 25, 2010, 12:55 PM
And yet, without even knowing what is contained in their scriptures, they strongly identify with the ummah and celebrate at disasters like 9/11. Without even knowing anything about the world politics, USA is considered enemy by most of them.

They don't need to know what is there in their scriptures, Hassan. The mullahs of their mosques tell them enough to define their relationship with the rest of the world.

I think this might be the crux of where our differences lie, judging by the way you wrote that, would you say the majority or minority of muslims would "celebrate at disasters like 9/11"

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #502 - February 25, 2010, 01:22 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 25, 2010, 12:17 PM
I find this insistence on FFI that a "good Muslim is not a good human being" the most evil and pernicious of all the things they say - and it comes directly from Ali Sina - and most on there subscribe to it.

Now some will explain they mean the extremists - not ordinary peaceful Muslims who they don't regard as "Good Muslims". But this principle is lapped up by others who either don't have a clue what the difference is or who are not bothered about making any distinction. (Even if they had the brain cells to do so!)

Extreme groups and bigots can now feel totally justified in beating up the praying/bearded Paki next doo - "Hey, he's a 'Good Muslim' - so the bastard is not even human - I'm doing the world a service getting rid of this vermin!"

When it comes to the reality, most people on the ground will look at a Muslim who prays and has a beard/wears hijab as a "Good Muslim".

Hey presto! You have just dehumanized most Muslims!

It has been clarified that a person is considered a "good Muslim" if he believes that Muhammad was the uswa hasana, and is ready to follow his example no matter what. Also, for him the Quran is the word of the creator God irrespective of whatever is written in the Quran. What adjective would you choose for this Muslim?

What those 99% bad Muslims (according to Ali Sina, and Good ones according to you) are doing to weed out the good (according to Ali Sina, and probably bad ones according to you) Muslims?

I will tell you what they are seen to be doing by the rest of the world. They are seen celebrating the collapse of twin towers and other such incidents. They are seen to be stoning some poor woman to death. They are heard to be calling the western women whores. They are caught raping them. Most of their scholars are heard spewing hateful nonsense against rest of the world. Come to the world of the internet: most of the Muslims we come across are seen to be defending the crimes of Muhammad. They are seen to be supporting anyone who is against the Jews and the west.

This is the visible face of Muslims (who bothers about what a Muslim in some remote village of Indonesia is doing?). Do you wonder why they seem to invite the antagonism of others?

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #503 - February 25, 2010, 01:24 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 25, 2010, 01:02 PM

I think this might be the crux of where our differences lie, judging by the way you wrote that, would you say the majority or minority of muslims would "celebrate at disasters like 9/11"

I already answered this in my previous post.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #504 - February 25, 2010, 01:27 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on February 25, 2010, 01:22 PM
It has been clarified that a person is considered a "good Muslim" if he believes that Muhammad was the uswa hasana...

LOL... you really make me laugh... as if it's that simple... You do realise that Debunker, Abu Yunus and me when I was a Muslims and almost every single fucking Muslim believe that Muhammad was uswa hasana (A good example) to be followed. (Even though they all have pretty selective vision and cherry pick of course!).

So by your logic 99% of Muslims are not good human beings.

THis is what really pisses me off about the FFI mentality!
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #505 - February 25, 2010, 01:31 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 25, 2010, 12:17 PM
Hey presto! You have just dehumanized most Muslims!

I agree with everything you have written so far.
However the vilest dehumanization occurs when people effectively dehumanize themselves.
Can you imagine somebody saying that they are first and foremost Muslims and only then human beings?
I have experienced such attitude on several occasions and what really shocked me was that this was uttered by Muslims who cannot be considered extremists by any stretch of imagination.
I do hope that such attitude is not shared by many but still this was something that I did find disturbing.
After all is this feeling of separateness and exclusivity that gives fuel to supremacism.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #506 - February 25, 2010, 01:35 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 25, 2010, 01:27 PM
LOL... you really make me laugh... as if it's that simple... You do realise that Debunker, Abu Yunus and me when I was a Muslims and almost every single fucking Muslim believe that Muhammad was uswa hasana (A good example) to be followed. (Even though they all have pretty selective vision and cherry pick of course!).

So by your logic 99% of Muslims are not good human beings.

THis is what really pisses me off about the FFI mentality!

So are you asking me to think of a person, who considers Muhammad a role model, as a good person? What would you think of a person who proudly claims that Hitler is his role model?

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #507 - February 25, 2010, 01:41 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 25, 2010, 12:17 PM
I find this insistence on FFI that a "good Muslim is not a good human being" the most evil and pernicious of all the things they say - and it comes directly from Ali Sina - and most on there subscribe to it.

Now some will explain they mean the extremists - not ordinary peaceful Muslims who they don't regard as "Good Muslims". But this principle is lapped up by others who either don't have a clue what the difference is or who are not bothered about making any distinction. (Even if they had the brain cells to do so!)

Extreme groups and bigots can now feel totally justified in beating up the praying/bearded Paki next doo - "Hey, he's a 'Good Muslim' - so the bastard is not even human - I'm doing the world a service getting rid of this vermin!"

When it comes to the reality, most people on the ground will look at a Muslim who prays and has a beard/wears hijab as a "Good Muslim".

Hey presto! You have just dehumanized most Muslims!

The part in bold is objectionable.You have a problem with Ali sina's statement because you think some extremist groups would misuse the statement to justify their hatred against muslims but interestingly you have no problems with muslims following Islam when extremist groups among muslims might use islam for promoting terrorism .Both the cases are identical but yet you have no problem with muslim following islam but you do have a problem people following Ali Sina's statement. See the hypocrisy? ACtually people who believe in ALi Sina;s statement are better in position than you.To know how lets do a parallel comparison .

1) Ali Sina 's statement doesnt actually call for hate but islam does.

2) Ali Sina's statement would be misused by extremist groups but extremist groups amongst muslims would actually use islam as it is rather than misusing.

Would you still not have problems with muslims following islam?
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #508 - February 25, 2010, 01:41 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on February 25, 2010, 01:35 PM
What would you think of a person who proudly claims that Hitler is his role model?

Hitler was a vegetarian; he liked animals was an excellent orator and could paint half-decent aquarelles. Imagine somebody with a tunnel vision who only sees these four things and is oblivious to everything else.
Just my two cents.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #509 - February 25, 2010, 02:14 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 25, 2010, 01:27 PM
LOL... you really make me laugh... as if it's that simple... You do realise that Debunker, Abu Yunus and me when I was a Muslims and almost every single fucking Muslim believe that Muhammad was uswa hasana (A good example) to be followed. (Even though they all have pretty selective vision and cherry pick of course!).

So by your logic 99% of Muslims are not good human beings.

THis is what really pisses me off about the FFI mentality!

Charles never showed hate for muslims in the past when it wasnt due. He missed here a clarification that those muslims who consider Muhhamad as a USWA HASANA even after they know what Muhhamad did cannot be called good human beings i.e those who support Muhhamad's acts of stoning,hating unbelievers,paedophilia, raping of slaves etc etc arent good human beings .We do find muslims doing all these acts shamelessly without having any sense of guilt . These are the muslims who cannot be excused.Charles is a human and hence prone to error and I dont think he would be ashamed to admit if he commits some error but that doesnt mean he deliberately hates muslims or has some agenda.

There are muslims who are ignorant of what Muhhamad really did and consider him as a USWA HASANA just because they were told so.They are excluded from the blame.
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