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 Topic: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]

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  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #750 - March 15, 2010, 06:22 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on March 15, 2010, 05:59 PM
    Let me ask both you and Hassan a question-- if someone from an underground Saudi women's liberation group asked for some money to help them buy weapons and explosives for an assassination campaign against imams in their country-- if you knew they were on the level, if you knew you wouldn't get into any trouble for it-- wouldn't you at least be tempted to make a donation?


    I think you know my answer - definitely not for one second would I think of contributing.

    I would rather die standing by by principals than live in a world where I had compromised them.
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #751 - March 15, 2010, 06:28 PM
    No-- if I knew your answer I wouldn't have asked you the question. I know you are keen on your principles, and while I do possess an understanding of some of those principles, I am not aware of how your principles would play into that particular scenario. Let me ask, Hassan-- do you advocate pacifism? That non-violent methods should prevail in every circumstance?
    fuck you
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #752 - March 15, 2010, 06:31 PM
    Not gonna lie. I would probably fund something like that. Depends who they're assassinating. But some French revolution style guillotine-ing of our religious/islamist class is definitely long overdue. Of course I'm talking about people who are active oppressors, not just dudes who said stuff you don't like.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #753 - March 15, 2010, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on March 15, 2010, 06:28 PM
    Let me ask, Hassan-- do you advocate pacifism? That non-violent methods should prevail in every circumstance?


    I'm not a pacifist. I recognise that violence is necessary in some circumstances but I would never condone any violence that I found unethical or contradicted my principles. I believe 100% that one must be consistently true to one's principals. Any perceived success gained through unethical methods would not be success but failure - and would destroy those very things I believe in and stand for - and would end up making life meaningless for me.
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #754 - March 15, 2010, 06:50 PM
    Okay, so would the Saudi people be justified in violent revolt to overthrow the religious/royalist tyranny they now live under?
    fuck you
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #755 - March 15, 2010, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on March 15, 2010, 06:50 PM
    Okay, so would the Saudi people be justified in violent revolt to overthrow the religious/royalist tyranny they now live under?


    If they could not be overthrown in any other way then yes.

    But in my opinion violence should be the last option - when all other options have been exhausted. At the moment the average saudi is nowhere near ready for such a change.  I would prefer to see gradual and peaceful change where the whole society - from top to bottom - would gradually become more educated, mature and find a better ways to organise their society. I believe that would lead to a more stable and permanent solution.

    However if the majority want change and started demanding that change - and the authorities used force to suppress them - then of course I will support them in using violence right back.
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #756 - March 15, 2010, 07:26 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 15, 2010, 07:01 PM
    If they could not be overthrown in any other way then yes.

    But in my opinion violence should be the last option - when all other options have been exhausted. At the moment the average saudi is nowhere near ready for such a change.


    You're right, assisting such a group given current conditions would be pointless. But I was speaking about emotions rather than objective analysis. You just fucked me up with that pesky "objective analysis" and "reality"-- you know that, right Hassan?

    Quote
    I would prefer to see gradual and peaceful change where the whole society - from top to bottom - would gradually become more educated, mature and find a better ways to organise their society. I believe that would lead to a more stable and permanent solution.


    Peaceful is what most people want, but gradual? Yeah, that will probably end up being the way it goes, but I'd hardly say I prefer it. The injustices in Saudi Arabia call out for immediate action to overthrow them. Fuck, they've had a few hundred years to sort this shit out. But I will give you that rapid change is much riskier, both in terms of immediate results and long-term results, and obviously there are no signs of rapid change approaching there at the moment.

    Quote
    However if the majority want change and started demanding that change - and the authorities used force to suppress them - then of course I will support them in using violence right back.


    Yeah, this is actually my position on it too-- it's just even thinking about totalitarian restrictions the Saudi royalty has in place with full support and encouragement of most of the clerics there on women's basic freedoms, on political dissent or any freedom of conscience-- well it's fuckin infuriating.
    fuck you
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #757 - March 15, 2010, 07:33 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 15, 2010, 06:31 PM
    Not gonna lie. I would probably fund something like that. Depends who they're assassinating. But some French revolution style guillotine-ing of our religious/islamist class is definitely long overdue. Of course I'm talking about people who are active oppressors, not just dudes who said stuff you don't like.


    I don't see how such a violent method will bring about harmony and progress.
    The french revolution led directly to the atrocities and murders committed by Napoleon.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #758 - March 15, 2010, 07:39 PM
    It's was bloody, yes. But even if you regard the methods employed and immediate results as immoral, you gotta admit, it did pretty surely move history in the right direction. Of course, so did World War I (in dealing the Continental European monarchy its death blow), and that was pretty horrific shit too.
    fuck you
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #759 - March 15, 2010, 07:43 PM
    has the world progressed though?
    Is there any less conflict in the world today? any less production of arms? any less threat of another world war?

    my point is, simply, conflict will only lead to more conflict, we've been doing it for thousands of years and every time we make the same stupid mistake of thinking that war will solve all the problems.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #760 - March 15, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 15, 2010, 06:18 PM
    Two successful graduates of the "compulsory re-education camps"

    (Clicky for piccy!)

     clap JOTM material there.  Afro
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #761 - March 15, 2010, 09:53 PM

    Whatever happened to the guys from Goodness Gracious Me?

    Great show that  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #762 - March 15, 2010, 10:17 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 15, 2010, 07:43 PM
    Is there any less conflict in the world today?

    Yes, there are a lot fewer conflicts nowadays with a lot fewer casualities (relatively speaking) then in the past.

    Quote:
    Lawrence Keeley calculates that 87 per cent of primitive societies were at war more than once per year, and some 65 per cent of them were fighting continuously.

    "Had the same casualty rate been suffered by the population of the twentieth century," writes Wade, "its war deaths would have totaled two billion people."

    Two billion! In other words, we're the aberration: after 50,000 years of continuous human slaughter, you, me, Bush, Cheney, Blair, Harper, Rummy, Condi, we're the nancy-boy peacenik crowd.

    "The common impression that primitive peoples, by comparison, were peaceful and their occasional fighting of no serious consequence is incorrect.

    Warfare between pre-state societies was incessant, merciless, and conducted with the general purpose, often achieved, of annihilating the opponent."


    Yep, the 20th century with two large scale world wars was one of the most peaceful times in human history ever.
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #763 - March 16, 2010, 12:51 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 15, 2010, 07:43 PM
    has the world progressed though?


    Uh, yeah. In my country Black men aren't routinely strung up for looking lustfully at White women anymore-- I'd say that's progress. Most women in the world can vote now-- I'd say that's progress. The threat of dying of starvation has all but been eliminated in large sections of the world-- that's progress. A boy or girl born in Europe today does not face only three choices for their future-- be born into nobility, be born into serfdom, or join the church. That's better. A lot of shit is better today for a lot of the world than it was 100, 500, 1,000 years ago. In some parts of the world, the situation is worse than certain points in the past, but it seems unlikely progress has been permanently stunted in those areas.

    Quote
    Is there any less conflict in the world today?


    I'm not sure, but what Kenan wrote seems plausible to me.

    Quote
    any less production of arms?


    No, but this cannot be the sole measure of social progress.

    Quote
    any less threat of another world war?


    Uncertain, but again, this cannot be the sole measure of social progress.

    Quote
    my point is, simply, conflict will only lead to more conflict,


    Not always.

    Quote
    we've been doing it for thousands of years and every time we make the same stupid mistake of thinking that war will solve all the problems.


    Saying that wars sometimes move history forward in a good way is not the same as saying "war will solve all the problems". Look, World War I was a horrific war fought over stupid reasons-- but is Europe not better off for an end to the rule of the monarchy and the existence of multinational Continental European empires? Is not Europe better off for the republican ideals spread by the French Revolution? Is not the US better off for the abolition of slavery and smashing of semi-feudal society in the American South that directly resulted from the US Civil War?

    I'm not saying war is desirable. Indeed, in every case it is a horrible affair, and should be avoided. But that does not mean that war and other great and destructive social dislocations do not lead to historical social progress.
    fuck you
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #764 - March 16, 2010, 02:55 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on March 15, 2010, 10:17 PM
    Yes, there are a lot fewer conflicts nowadays with a lot fewer casualities (relatively speaking) then in the past.

    Quote:
    Lawrence Keeley calculates that 87 per cent of primitive societies were at war more than once per year, and some 65 per cent of them were fighting continuously.

    Very useful statistic to remember, do you have any idea of the era he means by primitive and how he worked these statistics out?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #765 - March 16, 2010, 03:06 PM
    Lawrence Keeley’s 1996 War Before Civilization used archaeological evidence to show that prehistoric villages in both Europe and North America had almost all been constructed with fortifications and that a high proportion of the skeletal remains of their inhabitants showed they had been killed by weapons of war. Massacre sites were common.

    Keeley used anthropological studies to show that in most remaining tribal societies, whether Amazon Indians or New Guinea highlanders, comparative fatality rates from war were 4 to 6 times higher than even the worst experienced by modern nations, such as Germany and Russia in the 20th century.

    For at least 95% of the past 200,000 years, humans were hunter-gatherers. Agriculture — even the most elementary kind such as that still practiced in New Guinea — is a comparatively recent invention, less than 10,000 years old.

    Steven A. LeBlanc, in Constant Battles, analyzes 3 hunter-gatherer populations for which there is reliable evidence: the !Kung bushmen of south-west Africa, the Eskimos of arctic America and the Aborigines of Australia. These foragers’ record of violence is little different from that of more sedentary agriculturalists.



    http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268751955&sr=8-1

  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #766 - March 16, 2010, 03:34 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 15, 2010, 05:30 PM
    Yes, I can see where you are going with this - good idea - there will be others who will have unacceptable beliefs so we need to extend these "compulsory 3 hour re-education classes" to others also.

    No, I'm not going anywhere with this, I'm only in favor of educating muslims about human rights and freedom of speech and expression, etc, nothing else.

    Quote from: Hassan on March 15, 2010, 05:30 PM
    I think it would be important to have armed guards on hand at these classes, as there may well be a few who might object (hard to believe I know!) or abscond and they must be 'dealt' with.

    Those who don't want to attend the classes can simply be deported back to their countries. Unless you're talking about those who do suicide bombings at a class teaching muslims about human rights, for which there should definitely be security present.

    Quote from: Hassan on March 15, 2010, 05:30 PM
    We also need to find a way to make sure they have been 'truly' re-educated - a rack perhaps?

    Really? I thought an exam might have occurred to someone as intelligent as you.

    Quote from: Hassan on March 15, 2010, 05:30 PM
    It might be a good idea to put the scientists to work on a new drug to help those with "wrong thoughts" and perhaps some sort of "therapy" for those who just wont 'learn'.


    Nope, not in favor of that. I'm only talking about a 3 hour weekend class on topics like : human rights, democracy, freedom of speech, rights of women, etc, topics which are essential to living in a modern world and where most muslims are lagging behind at a scary rate.

    If someone knows what human rights are and what their advantages are, that's all there'd be to it, they won't be forced to 'accept' human rights, just 'know' what human rights are and what their benefits are.

    My guess is that 95% of people will automatically choose to support human rights once they learnt about them.

    Quote from: Hassan on March 15, 2010, 05:30 PM
    As for all those Imams and Sheikhs who we will need to make "disappear" - do you suggest a huge mass grave somewhere or perhaps ovens?

    Yea, why not? I feel no sympathy for hate mongers. For example these mullahs who go on the loudspeaker and incite violence against christians in pakistan, why should any sympathy be shown to them?

    Non violent / peaceful  religious scholars  (a rare creature) can be left alone.
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #767 - March 16, 2010, 03:41 PM
    Wow liberated, talk about changing the goal posts. If you wanted to talk about muslim extremists that engage in and support violence you should have mentioned that. Obviously your idiotic original post clearly was talking about any muslim that disagreed with your point of view.

    But what do you expect from a confused creationist anyways.  Roll Eyes
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #768 - March 16, 2010, 05:40 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 15, 2010, 07:43 PM
    has the world progressed though?
    Is there any less conflict in the world today? any less production of arms? any less threat of another world war?

    my point is, simply, conflict will only lead to more conflict, we've been doing it for thousands of years and every time we make the same stupid mistake of thinking that war will solve all the problems.


    I am of the opinion that both violence and resorting to peace every single time are extremes.I would advocate a moderate philosophy wherein situation decides whether we go for war or peace. Not every single problem was solved with the help of  violence nor was every single problem solved by  resorting to peace so sticking to one particular philosophy wouldnt work every single time . Its true that we have been fighting for thousands of years but its equally true that people forget how to fight when they always resort to  philosophy advocated by Jesus or Gandhi e.g hindus have forgotten how to fight and have become victims of islamic terrorism since ages .Indians were great fighters one time but this principle of non violence has ruined everything.Gandhi 's( a fraud) role in making Indians more cowards cannot be denied.
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #769 - March 16, 2010, 05:47 PM
    Quote
    Indians were great fighters one time but this principle of non violence has ruined everything.Gandhi 's( a fraud) role in making Indians more cowards cannot be denied.

    rubbish, you just blame GANDHI for everything dear skynightblaze., read history of Bengal between 12th and 14th century...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #770 - March 16, 2010, 05:50 PM
    Indians were never great fighters.  Cheesy

    I say this as a desi. We're good at many things. Soldierin' ain't one of them!

    There's a reason we were owned by turkic muslim warriors and british colonialists from 1200 till 1945!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #771 - March 16, 2010, 06:03 PM
    Quote
    Indians were never great fighters.  Cheesy

    I say this as a desi. We're good at many things. Soldierin' ain't one of them!

    There's a reason we were owned by turkic muslim warriors and british colonialists from 1200 till 1945!


    What transformed Turks in to killing machines is Muhammad's Islam along with Turkish Nationalism  and it continued all the way to  Armenian Genocide  in 1910s..  
    http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa98

    Unlike Turks and Persians,  Indians(Hindus/Sikhs/and many other religious followers) at least kept fighting Islamic onslaught all the way to present day..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #772 - March 16, 2010, 06:05 PM
    Right, Yeezeevee. Because Turks were pacifists before they embraced Islam.  Cheesy

    You FFIers are so silly with your historical revisionism. The Turkic and Mongolic peoples were already bloodthirsty nomadic bands long before Islam. They had been pillaging civilized nations before Muhammad was even born. Remember Attilla the Hun? Was he a muslim too? Grin

    Get real.

    And don't lecture me about Muslim history. I've read on the military history of muslim empires far more than most of you FFIers and I don't fall for the silly shit you FFIers and historyofjihad.com put out. You guys are on the same intellectual level as a holocaust denier.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #773 - March 16, 2010, 06:14 PM
    Quote from: Iblis
    Right, Yeezeevee. Because Turks were pacifists before they embraced Islam. 

    You FFIers are so silly with your historical revisionism. The Turkic and Mongolic peoples were already bloodthirsty nomadic bands long before Islam. They had been pillaging civilized nations before Muhammad was even born. Remember Attilla the Hun? Was he a muslim too?

    Get real.

    And don't lecture me about Muslim history. I've read on the military history of muslim empires far more than most of you FFIers and I don't fall for the silly shit you FFIers and historyofjihad.com put out. You guys are on the same intellectual level as a holocaust denier.


    You are a troll even by CEMB standards . I neednt say anything.Also Indians were great warriors at the time of Maharajas and kings.
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #774 - March 16, 2010, 06:16 PM
     Cheesy

    ROFL. Nice rebuttal.

    But I still love you.  Kiss
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #775 - March 16, 2010, 06:21 PM
    Quote from: Iblis
    ROFL. Nice rebuttal.

    But I still love you.


    Try interacting with me . I will make sure you will love every single exchange that we have.Btw your claim that Indians were never good warriors shows your ignorance of history.
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #776 - March 16, 2010, 06:25 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 16, 2010, 05:47 PM
    rubbish, you just blame GANDHI for everything dear skynightblaze., read history of Bengal between 12th and 14th century...


    Nope I am blaming  him for advocating a useless philosophy which he himself violated on ocassions which resulted into serious loss of lives. Btw what has history of Bengal got to do with the issue at hand? I didnt understand.
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #777 - March 16, 2010, 06:26 PM
    Quote
    I don't fall for the silly shit you FFIers


    that is good hit dear Iblis.,  But you are iblis., You don't know how easy to get in to the shit and how hard to get out of the shit., Some times it takes couple of generations.,

    I know you are every good in History of Islam So tell me about THE GOLDEN period of Islam  you were talking  in the other thread  and why don't you write History of Turkey Before Islam and After Islam here to educate the readers dear Iblis?  

    If that guy Mustafa Kemal Atatürk  was not there to put a nose ring and drag the Turks  out of mud., Turks would have been reeling under real Islam.
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #778 - March 16, 2010, 06:27 PM
    Ok fine. I will admit that was more of my own desi self-loathing.

    I am well aware of many great periods of history where Indians were indeed great warriors. I've read a lot about the glorious fight of the Rajput warriors and their chivalry and have great admiration for them.  Afro

    But you should also face the facts that compared to the Muslim invaders, the military tactics and quality of the Indians were far inferior. The Turks had nowhere near the number of soldiers as the Rajput princes yet Mahmud of Ghazni and later Muhammad Ghori dominated and captured most of India very swiftly. Even the valiant Rajputs were no match for an army of tactically brilliant ghulams and horse archers:





    ^The two styles of cavalry units that conquered India for the Muslims.

    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
     Reply #779 - March 16, 2010, 06:36 PM
    Quote from: Iblis
    Ok fine. I will admit that was more of my own desi self-loathing.

    I am well aware of many great periods of history where Indians were indeed great warriors. I've read a lot about the glorious fight of the Rajput warriors and their chivalry and have great admiration for them. 

    But you should also face the facts that compared to the Muslim invaders, the military tactics and quality of the Indians were far inferior. The Turks had nowhere near the number of soldiers as the Rajput princes yet Mahmud of Ghazni and later Muhammad Ghori dominated and captured most of India very swiftly. Even the valiant Rajputs were no match for an army of tactically brilliant ghulams and horse archers:

    The two styles of cavalry units that conquered India for the Muslims.


    My point was we Indians were great warriors were one time. .We have literally forgotten how to fight.I am not comparing them with muslims .Anyway I cannot deny what you said here but its not that Moghuls always won . Kings like Shivaji gave them a tough time and defeated moghuls plenty of times.
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