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Theme Changer

 Topic: Loving God

 (Read 6620 times)
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  • Loving God
     OP - February 19, 2010, 09:16 PM

    This is a general question but in the back of my mind is what Debunker said about the fact that he Loves God for caring enough not to let him suffer eternal torment even though he is an insignificant speck of dust to this God.

    Can one really love someone who one doesn't know?

    Can one love someone who doesn't give a shit about the human race and doesn't give a shit about billions suffering on earth and eternally in Hell?

    Can one really love someone who allows babies to be born with genetic defects and mothers to see their child crushed in an Earthquake or torn from them in a Tsunami?

    Can one really love someone who may - if you are very lucky and grovel enough - pluck your insignificant arse out of the misery he put you in and place you in a happy place while billions of others suffer eternal torment.

    Imagine someone said to you "I want you to love me - and submit yourself entirely to me - because I am so great and powerful and you are just a shitty speck of dust - and if you don't love me and submit to me I will torture you for eternity"

    Can you truly love him/her?

    Define love!



  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #1 - February 19, 2010, 10:13 PM

    @ Hassan

    There's a Muslim member at FFI, I'll direct him to this thread and hopefully he'll answer. He seems to have a way with words.. unfortunately, I don't express myself very well... anyway, here's my response.

    Quote
    This is a general question but in the back of my mind is what Debunker said about the fact that he Loves God for caring enough not to let him suffer eternal torment even though he is an insignificant speck of dust to this God.

    Can one really love someone who one doesn't know?


    Yes. And although I will never be able to truly fully *know* God, what I can already grasp about Him is enough for me to love Him above all else.

    Tell me Hassan, when you see a picture like this:


    Or watch a documentary like this one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9hr9Ucyftg

    And you believe there is a God who created all of this overpowering beauty, wouldn't you feel love for Him? All this majestic creation is only an infinitely small indicator of His majesty and you can't understand how I can love God? It's only human nature to fall in love with what is supremely beautiful, powerful and majestic!

    Quote
    Can one love someone who doesn't give a shit about the human race and doesn't give a shit about billions suffering on earth and eternally in Hell?


    Yes. First off, this life is but a fraction of a second compared to eternity. What's a fraction of a second of suffering compared to eternity? I know it's easier said than done, but if one can truly understand this and always remember it, suffering becomes a lot easier.

    As for eternity of suffering in Hell for some of humanity, I discussed with you before that I believe only a distinct group of disbelievers might be subjected to *Eternal* damnation... the original condition is: God does NOT care = Hell... except He's infinitely merciful as to care for some of His infinitely isignificant creations.

    Quote
    Can one really love someone who allows babies to be born with genetic defects and mothers to see their child crushed in an Earthquake or torn from them in a Tsunami?


    Yes... see above.

    Quote
    Can one really love someone who may - if you are very lucky and grovel enough - pluck your insignificant arse out of the misery he put you in and place you in a happy place while billions of others suffer eternal torment.


    Yes. But again, I don't think that *eternal* suffering will befall a lot of people. In any case, like I said before, to me it would be mind boggling if God would care for an infinitely insignificant being like myself.

    Quote
    Imagine someone said to you "I want you to love me - and submit yourself entirely to me - because I am so great and powerful and you are just a shitty speck of dust - and if you don't love me and submit to me I will torture you for eternity"

    Can you truly love him/her?


    No. Because no one is infinitely greater than myself (except God).

    Quote
    Define love!


    In the context of this subject, LOVE is an intense emotional attachment to what is supremely powerful, beautiful and majestic.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #2 - February 19, 2010, 10:25 PM

    I went out tonight and saw a beautiful crystal clear sky with a stunning crescent moon and stars including a very clear Orion's Belt and I thought of you and your God who doesn't care about us. If there is a God, Debunker then he is not the uncaring cold marble statue in your avatar - he is a warm loving God who does care. I find it impossible to think otherwise. I definitely am unable to love a God who is not loving towards his creation - all of them - and not just me!

    LOVE is an intense emotional attachment to what is supremely powerful, beautiful and majestic.


    Nope - not to me, my friend - I can't love something simply because he is powerful or creates beautiful things - he has to be beautiful inside too - he has to show he has a loving character a gentle and delicate nature that cares for the tiniest as well as the greatest. The weakest as well as the strongest. Who was it who said that a civilisation is judged by how it treats the weakest amongst them - a God who is powerful and creates awesome monuments is nothing in my eyes unless he cares for the baby blighted by HIV or the alcoholic who sleeps under newspapers.
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #3 - February 19, 2010, 10:27 PM

    He also created pedophiles, or let's say the brain, which allows for paedophilic emotions. If adults weren't attracted to children, there would be no child prostitution and no sexual child abuse. So, no matter how beautiful the rest of the world is, things like this will always stick out. No merciful God would design his creation like this.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #4 - February 19, 2010, 10:29 PM

    Nature isn't that beautiful anyway.  Sure there is plenty of beauty in it but plenty of cruelty and ugliness too.  Why should I love a God who created tapeworms and the Ebola virus? 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #5 - February 19, 2010, 10:33 PM

    I went out tonight and saw a beautiful crystal clear sky with a stunning crescent moon and stars including a very clear Orion's Belt and I thought of you and your God who doesn't care about us. If there is a God, Debunker then he is not the uncaring cold marble statue in your avatar - he is a warm loving God who does care. I find it impossible to think otherwise. I definitely am unable to love a God who is not loving towards his creation - all of them - and not just me!

    Nope - not to me, my friend - I can't love something simply because he is powerful or creates beautiful things - he has to be beautiful inside too - he has to show he has a loving character a gentle and delicate nature that cares for the tiniest as well as the greatest. The weakest as well as the strongest. Who was it who said that a civilisation is judged by how it treats the weakest amongst them - a God who is powerful and creates awesome monuments is nothing in my eyes unless he cares for the baby blighted by HIV or the alcoholic who sleeps under newspapers.


    You want paradise now... this world is riddled with suffering.. disease, wars, poverty and famine everywhere.. yes this world is not perfect... so I'll just close my eyes for one second... and when I open them, people will be carrying my body to my grave. It is over already.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #6 - February 19, 2010, 10:35 PM

    @ Hassan

    Come to think of it, don't you think that aging is absolute torture? Wouldn't you characterize the process of aging as suffering?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #7 - February 19, 2010, 10:36 PM

    Understanding God. Is it folly? First you need to define God.

    There is God of scripture. And there is the interpretation of God.

    Allah in the Quran can be very loving at times. He can make you think about creation. He can make reflect over how silly it is that believers and non-believers try to understand him. He is too majestic and grand to be belittled with us. He is like a King on his Throne. His Majesty.

    My interpretation of God. God loves me. Cares for me. He is my Guardian and Master. I am his Servant. But I love Him. More than anything else. I try to be my best. It worries me when others are not good. It worries me when they hurt might hurt my family or me. I pray to keep us safe. We are safe. More or less. Nothing major. It's good. I don't know about others who suffer. But they wont suffer in heaven. They deserve the highest heaven because they have suffered the most.

    Two things I wanna say, being objective I can't see how my interpretation of God is accurate compared with God in the Quran.

    Talking about the character of God or God even, is like discussing what color Sauron's underpants is on a Thursday.
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #8 - February 19, 2010, 10:39 PM

    You will never convince Debunker Hassan.

    He has created a thought process of him being the lowliest of slaves looking up at the Lord of Lords. And amazed that the Lord is even acknowledging his presence.

    I know because I would pray for God to humble me, till I am the most humbled whilst prostrating. Your mind will do the rest.
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #9 - February 19, 2010, 10:40 PM

    You want paradise now... this world is riddled with suffering.. disease, wars, poverty and famine everywhere.. yes this world is not perfect... so I'll just close my eyes for one second... and when I open them, people will be carrying my body to my grave. It is over already.


    You take the easy way. I don't blame you. But what if life happens to you? And you are no longer able to close eyes? You will be forced to watch. Forced to watch as people carry the bodies of your children to the grave.

    ah forgive me debunker i dont mean to sound callous  far away hug

    but life happens and has happened to many people.. baby coffins i mean wtf dude
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #10 - February 19, 2010, 10:41 PM

    Quote
    Nature isn't that beautiful anyway.  Sure there is plenty of beauty in it but plenty of cruelty and ugliness too.  Why should I love a God who created tapeworms and the Ebola virus?  

     

    Thats what I was going to say. I can understand being spiritually and emotionally moved by the beauty there is in the world and natural landscape. But if you grant God love for the physical sublime, what are we to do about the horror and ugliness of nature and occurence?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #11 - February 19, 2010, 10:43 PM

    Check out this prayer. Imam Ali prayer. It is the most abased and humbled and humiliated of prayers. I used to read it and think wow how could he be this devout? And I worked at my faith until I could also do the same thing, there are subs:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RxOcp0owoQ

    It's actually a beautiful prayer of sorts, the wordings. And the way it is said.
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #12 - February 19, 2010, 10:45 PM

    You want paradise now... this world is riddled with suffering.. disease, wars, poverty and famine everywhere.. yes this world is not perfect... so I'll just close my eyes for one second... and when I open them, people will be carrying my body to my grave. It is over already.


    I don't expect paradise now - I expect a God worthy of my love, Debunker.

    I really don't know if there is a God. At times I think there can't be. The very idea creates too many questions - too many problems, but "IF" there is a God then I cannot believe he is the cold uncaring monster you seem to think will save your arse if you grovel, tremble and tell him how great he is - enough.

    I find it truly astonishing that a person of your intelligence could believe in such a God and can only think that it is the Islamic concept of a scary vengeful God that preys on your mind - as it did mine at one time.
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #13 - February 19, 2010, 10:49 PM

    @ Hassan

    Come to think of it, don't you think that aging is absolute torture? Wouldn't you characterize the process of aging as suffering?


    Do you think I am not aware of the awful suffering of this world, Debunker?

    I personally have experienced a great deal of pain that I sometimes feel I can no longer bear. So if there is a God who wants my love - he better have a very good reason!
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #14 - February 19, 2010, 10:50 PM

    Honestly the problem of evil and so on does not really remove God from the equation.

    but i cant see how it can prove gods mercy... is god's mercy only extended beyond the grave? how are we to be sure of it? its not really fair to believe in somebody merciful when there is no proof.

    and honestly there is no mercy, there is lack of mercy in this world...

    the lack of mercy for me creates heavy doubt on an attribute of this god, the abhramhic god, and the quranic god, because he is called the most merciful, im not sure how, we cant see the evidence of this in this world...
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #15 - February 19, 2010, 10:51 PM

    You take the easy way. I don't blame you. But what if life happens to you? And you are no longer able to close eyes? You will be forced to watch. Forced to watch as people carry the bodies of your children to the grave.


    That's what I meant by my question to Hassan about aging... I'm 33 years old, already at the peek of my youth, gray hair started to pop up in my head a few months ago... I am already dying, slowly but surely.. I am already losing.. every day I "live" is a day of loss of my youth, a day closer to my grave, a day of my flesh rotting away...

    My question was: what if suffering, like cancer, wars, etc was as natural and as common and certain as the absolutely painful process of aging? Would we have called it suffering then?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #16 - February 19, 2010, 11:02 PM

    Do you think I am not aware of the awful suffering of this world, Debunker?

    I personally have experienced a great deal of pain that I sometimes feel I can no longer bear. So if there is a God who wants my love - he better have a very good reason!


    Is that why you apostated then? Because of the unbearable pain in your life?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #17 - February 19, 2010, 11:07 PM

    I don't expect paradise now - I expect a God worthy of my love, Debunker.

    I really don't know if there is a God. At times I think there can't be. The very idea creates too many questions - too many problems, but "IF" there is a God then I cannot believe he is the cold uncaring monster you seem to think will save your arse if you grovel, tremble and tell him how great he is - enough.

    I find it truly astonishing that a person of your intelligence could believe in such a God and can only think that it is the Islamic concept of a scary vengeful God that preys on your mind - as it did mine at one time.


    I truly believe He is NOT vengeful, He simply does NOT care... His infinite majesty makes Him not care, yet His infinite mercy makes Him care for those who love Him.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #18 - February 19, 2010, 11:08 PM

    If he didn't care he wouldn't punish people for all eternity.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #19 - February 19, 2010, 11:09 PM

    Is that why you apostated then? Because of the unbearable pain in your life?


    My doubts go back a long way though it would be stupid to say that what we experience does not affect us.

    Even if I rejected Islam because of what I experienced, Debunker, does that mean I am any different from any other unbeliever who rejects Islam because of his/her experiences and perspective?

    Or any believer who believes because of his/her experiences or perspective?

    And God will torture and reward them for eternity - on this basis?

    And I should love such a concept of God?

    Can't you see that this God is a product of the human mind?
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #20 - February 19, 2010, 11:12 PM

    I truly believe He is NOT vengeful, He simply does NOT care


    You love a God who doesn't care, Debunker?

     Huh?
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #21 - February 19, 2010, 11:19 PM

    @ Hassan

    Quote
    Can't you see that this God is a product of the human mind?


    No.

    Scripture was written for the human mind, trying to approximate the infinite using human language, but the Quran says no words can describe God.

    18:109
    قُلْ لَوْ كَانَ الْبَحْرُ مِدَادًا لِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّي لَنَفِدَ الْبَحْرُ قَبْلَ أَنْ تَنْفَدَ كَلِمَاتُ رَبِّي وَلَوْ جِئْنَا بِمِثْلِهِ مَدَدًا

    31:27
    وَلَوْ أَنَّمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ أَقْلَامٌ وَالْبَحْرُ يَمُدُّهُ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ سَبْعَةُ أَبْحُرٍ مَا نَفِدَتْ كَلِمَاتُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

    And your case, dear Hassan, has been mentioned in the Quran as well.

    Hajj:11
    وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَعْبُدُ اللَّهَ عَلَى حَرْفٍ فَإِنْ أَصَابَهُ خَيْرٌ اطْمَأَنَّ بِهِ وَإِنْ أَصَابَتْهُ فِتْنَةٌ انقَلَبَ عَلَى وَجْهِهِ خَسِرَ الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةَ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْخُسْرَانُ الْمُبِينُ

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #22 - February 19, 2010, 11:23 PM

    You love a God who doesn't care, Debunker?

     Huh?



    I already explained that it's baffling to me that God would care for someone so insignificant as myself. To me, it would be no surprise if God did not care about me at all (giving me Hell as my eternal abode)...

    Him caring about me is infinite generosity I will never deserve.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #23 - February 19, 2010, 11:25 PM

    Quote
    I already explained that it's baffling to me that God would care for someone so insignificant as myself. To me, it would be no surprise if God did not care about me at all (giving me Hell as my eternal abode)...


    Your concept of God sounds like Skynet out of the Terminator movies.   wacko

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #24 - February 19, 2010, 11:26 PM

    @ Hassan

    No.

    Scripture was written for the human mind, trying to approximate the infinite using human language, but the Quran says no words can describe God.

    18:109
    قُلْ لَوْ كَانَ الْبَحْرُ مِدَادًا لِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّي لَنَفِدَ الْبَحْرُ قَبْلَ أَنْ تَنْفَدَ كَلِمَاتُ رَبِّي وَلَوْ جِئْنَا بِمِثْلِهِ مَدَدًا

    31:27
    وَلَوْ أَنَّمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ أَقْلَامٌ وَالْبَحْرُ يَمُدُّهُ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ سَبْعَةُ أَبْحُرٍ مَا نَفِدَتْ كَلِمَاتُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

    And your case, dear Hassan, has been mentioned in the Quran as well.

    Hajj:11
    وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَعْبُدُ اللَّهَ عَلَى حَرْفٍ فَإِنْ أَصَابَهُ خَيْرٌ اطْمَأَنَّ بِهِ وَإِنْ أَصَابَتْهُ فِتْنَةٌ انقَلَبَ عَلَى وَجْهِهِ خَسِرَ الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةَ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْخُسْرَانُ الْمُبِينُ


    I'm sorry to see that you are as eager as most Muslims I meet on the internet who want to dismiss my rejection of Islam in a way that makes them feel more comfortable - that's OK, I don't judge anyone harshly - I am more forgiving than God it seems.

    I never worshipped God on the edge. Nor did I fall off at the slightest problem. I spent 48 years - through thick and thin - I still clung to Islam and gave it chance after chance - and gave God more reasonable excuse than I should.

    I left Islam after a very slow process of contemplation and consideration.

    I have been honest with you Debunker, saying that our experiences do of course affect us - and you leaped to the things that so many Muslims on Youtube do - and try and dismiss me in any way they can - because it makes them feel better.

    But trust me I do not mind. Smiley
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #25 - February 19, 2010, 11:27 PM

    You will never convince Debunker Hassan.

    He has created a thought process of him being the lowliest of slaves looking up at the Lord of Lords. And amazed that the Lord is even acknowledging his presence.


    Thanks BD! I was looking for the right words!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #26 - February 19, 2010, 11:30 PM

    I'm sorry to see that you are as eager as most Muslims I meet on the internet who want to dismiss my rejection of Islam in a way that makes them feel more comfortable - that's OK, I don't judge anyone harshly - I am more forgiving than God it seems.

    I never worshipped God on the edge. Nor did I fall off at the slightest problem. I spent 48 years - through thick and thin - I still clung to Islam and gave it chance after chance - and gave God more reasonable excuse than I should.

    I left Islam after a very slow process of contemplation and consideration.

    I have been honest with you Debunker, saying that our experiences do of course affect us - and you leaped to the things that so many of the idiot Muslims on Youtube do - and try and dismiss me in any way they can - because it makes them feel better.

    But trust me I do not mind. Smiley



    I apologize Hassan if I offended you... I didn't mean to sound like a typical idiotic Muslim... please forgive me.

    EDIT:
    watching your videos, I came to the conclusion that you rejected Islam only after scrutinizing the Quranic description of God... but this conversation in this thread is what led me to this new idiotic conclusion... again, forgive me for being so stupid.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #27 - February 19, 2010, 11:32 PM

    There is no need for forgiving - you are like my brother Debunker - and you are no idiot!
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #28 - February 19, 2010, 11:33 PM

    Thanks BD! I was looking for the right words!


    lol takes one to know one hey  Cheesy
  • Re: Loving God
     Reply #29 - February 19, 2010, 11:36 PM

    @ Hassan

    Quote
    There is no question of forgiving - you are like my brother Debunker - and you are no idiot!


    And you can't believe how much I like you Hassan! I really wish you the very best in this life AND the next!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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