Misspelled?

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #30 - February 23, 2010, 10:37 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 23, 2010, 10:08 AM
Oh! So that's what you meant by *you* in your previous comment?

It's a very common usage of the English language. It's an indefinite "you" when talking about a third party and trying to get the person you are talking to to imagine being in the place of the third party. We were talking about 3 people approaching Muhammad about discrepancies, and Muhammad telling them that there are 7 versions of the Quran.

Your post said that you cannot think of a reason why multiple versions would be needed.

I then said
Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 23, 2010, 08:37 AM
There is no "need" for them in a pre-planned sense. However as an excuse as to why you told three different people three different things it comes in quite handy.

Note the text "as an excuse for.....it comes in handy". Which means that if you (indefinite article) ever mess up then you (indefinite article) can use it as an excuse.

As I said, it is a common thing to do in the English language. I could have broken the habit of a life time and said "anyone" instead of "you" but it didn't occur to me that it might be necessary. It's not really a big deal, you misunderstood what I meant.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #31 - February 23, 2010, 10:39 AM

So all you need to do now Debunker is answer the question to why Muhammed would say 3 different things?
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #32 - February 23, 2010, 10:42 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 23, 2010, 10:39 AM
So all you need to do now Debunker is answer the question to why Muhammed would say 3 different things?

3 in this case, 7 in total (according to Muhammad's reply).

If ever anybody finds themself in a position where the immutable words of god contradict it is easy for them to say "there are different version".

I think it is what's known as "a cop out"

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #33 - February 23, 2010, 10:58 AM

@ rationalizer

Quote
As I said, it is a common thing to do in the English language. I could have broken the habit of a life time and said "anyone" instead of "you" but it didn't occur to me that it might be necessary. It's not really a big deal, you misunderstood what I meant.

No.. you didn't have to use "anyone"... using *he* would have sufficed.

@ BD

Quote
So all you need to do now Debunker is answer the question to why Muhammed would say 3 different things?

So you didn't read my answer to Hassan? There are 7 Ahruf or readings if you will. And anyone with basic knowledge of this knows that NOT every verse has 7 different wordings... there are 7 readings in all. One version has a slightly different wording or pronounciations for a certain set verses. Another version has such differences for another set of verses... the sets of verses from these versions might intersect but are not necessarily the same...

And by the way, the set of verses (with differences) in each version is very small. So that's why I said to Hassan, I really don't understand the reason for this, besides probably adding some flavor? O fcourse there are Hadiths in Muslim explaining that these differences are to make it easier for Arabs but of course this is laughable since the differences are trivial anyway.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #34 - February 23, 2010, 11:09 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 23, 2010, 10:58 AM
@ rationalizer

No.. you didn't have to use "anyone"... using *he* would have sufficed.

And as I said, it is so common in the English language to use "you" when trying to get someone to imagine themself in a specific situation that it didn't occur to me that I might need to change the every day usage.

Quote
@ BD

So you didn't read my answer to Hassan? There are 7 Ahruf or readings if you will. And anyone with basic knowledge of this knows that NOT every verse has 7 different wordings.

Nobody said EVERY verse is different, we merely pointed out that there are differences, and yet Muslims claim that the Quran is the exact words of God. To explain 7 different variations an excuse was needed, and considering any Arabic reader could read any variation of the Quran and still understand what the word means it is obvious that these variations were not required - so the explanation for the variations is rubbish.

The true reason for the variations was human error.

Quote
O fcourse there are Hadiths in Muslim explaining that these differences are to make it easier for Arabs but of course this is laughable since the differences are trivial anyway.

Which corroborates my view that they are unneeded, and therefore Muhammad's explanation was merely an excuse for his error.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #35 - February 23, 2010, 11:13 AM

Ah! So in the first Surah, Al-Fatiha, which Muhammed recited in every prayer all his life, he made the "error" and sometimes forgot whether it's "Maalek" or "Malek".. yeah right.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #36 - February 23, 2010, 11:24 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 23, 2010, 11:13 AM
Ah! So in the first Surah, Al-Fatiha, which Muhammed recited in every prayer all his life, he made the "error" and sometimes forgot whether it's "Maalek" or "Malek".. yeah right.

A brief moment of lack of concentration and you can easily miss a word, mispronounce a word. It happens to EVERYONE on this forum, anyone who says it never happens to them either has a short memory or is a liar.

You think it is impossible that Muhammad could make an error? To quote your own words "yeah right".

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #37 - February 23, 2010, 11:30 AM

Do you think that I can believe it that there are pakistanis who can memorize the whole Quran with PERFECT pronounciations without understanding a word? I can't believe it, yet they do exist, plenty of them...

Now when I believe God exists, and he is the author of the Quran and he promised protecting it... then it really is far easier to believe that Muhammed/some of his followers could easily memorize their Quran, especially that they spoke the language.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #38 - February 23, 2010, 11:33 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 23, 2010, 11:30 AM
Do you think that I can believe it that there are pakistanis who can memorize the whole Quran with PERFECT pronounciations without understanding a word? I can't believe it, yet they do exist, plenty of them...

Now when I believe God exists, and he is the author of the Quran and he promised protecting it... then it really is far easier to believe that Muhammed/some of his followers could easily memorize their Quran, especially that they spoke the language.

After spending many years on it yes, but when Muhammad was still in the process of making it all up it was still new to him, it would be easy to forget if you used saad or sin.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #39 - February 23, 2010, 12:22 PM

Ok, again genius, Al-Fatiha has been recited in every prayer, he couldn't have possibly confused Maalik with Malik.. get over yourself already...

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #40 - February 23, 2010, 12:33 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 23, 2010, 12:22 PM
Ok, again genius, Al-Fatiha has been recited in every prayer, he couldn't have possibly confused Maalik with Malik.. get over yourself already...

But he could easily have made an error elsewhere and changed that as part of the exercise of covering his tracks.

By the way, do you feel it is utterly necessary to be impolite to me? I thought your religion said that you should be polite?

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #41 - February 23, 2010, 12:44 PM

The quran was written earlier in a format that could not be read unless from memory ie the person reading the script will already know what the writing says. The letters muhamamd sent to various kings at the time are also in same style. No distinguishing dots called nuqaat for letters and no diacritical marks known as harakaat for vowels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kufic_Quran_7th_Cent.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufic

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #42 - February 23, 2010, 12:52 PM

Quote from: Mughal on February 23, 2010, 12:44 PM
The quran was written earlier in a format that could not be read unless from memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kufic_Quran_7th_Cent.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufic

Whereas this can explain discrepancies with diacritic dots it wouldn't explain the difference between a saad and a sin. It also wouldn't explain the difference in oral teaching.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #43 - February 23, 2010, 12:54 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 23, 2010, 12:33 PM
But he could easily have made an error elsewhere and changed that as part of the exercise of covering his tracks.

Could? as in that's your speculation? yeah, he could have... in fact, he could have not even existed...

Quote
By the way, do you feel it is utterly necessary to be impolite to me? I thought your religion said that you should be polite?

That's me being polite.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #44 - February 23, 2010, 01:01 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 23, 2010, 12:54 PM
Could? as in that's your speculation? yeah, he could have... in fact, he could have not even existed...

I think there is enough evidence that he existed. However in life I tend to opt for the most simple possible explanation. For example if I see a leaf on the floor I assume that it fell from a tree, I do not assume that an angel flew down from heaven, plucked it, and then placed it gently on the floor.

So given a choice between a man making it all up, and a mythical perfect entity communicating at first via an angel and then later directly into his head - I know which is most likely. Especially when the evidence clearly shows that the person in question has merely copied information from sources that were available to him at the time, including their mistakes, and has points within it that blatantly contradict other parts.

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That's me being polite.

If you drop the "genius" crap you'll do much better.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #45 - February 23, 2010, 01:03 PM

Many differences rose due to discrepancies between text and the message ie the writers made mistakes in copying the quranic texts and the hufaaz=those who had committed the quran to memory made mistakes here and their.

These are well explained by imaam jalaal uddin siyooti and mula ali qaari in their works. It is very long time I read these so I forgot the names of their books. I think one of them is called Al Itqaan or something by one of them.

I wrote these things years back on faithfreedom.org forum but there is no search facility on the old forums to see if I could dig my those posts out in there.

As for the fault you are pointing out, about word bastatan, it is result of writing by a person who did not know how this word is actually written in arabic. He just wrote the way it sounded. It is like writing c or s when they both sound the same eg as s in sore or c in city. Somebody wrote sity instead of city.

regards and all the best

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #46 - February 23, 2010, 01:08 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 23, 2010, 01:01 PM
I think there is enough evidence that he existed. However in life I tend to opt for the most simple possible explanation. For example if I see a leaf on the floor I assume that it fell from a tree, I do not assume that an angel flew down from heaven, plucked it, and then placed it gently on the floor.

So given a choice between a man making it all up, and a mythical perfect entity communicating at first via an angel and then later directly into his head - I know which is most likely. Especially when the evidence clearly shows that the person in question has merely copied information from sources that were available to him at the time, including their mistakes, and has points within it that blatantly contradict other parts.

Ah! Occam's razor! The same razor used to remove God.

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If you drop the "genius" crap you'll do much better.

What? You don't like to be called a genius?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #47 - February 23, 2010, 01:17 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 23, 2010, 01:08 PM
Ah! Occam's razor! The same razor used to remove God.

No, the same razor which is used to explain that the unknown is not a good explanation for something else unknown.

In life there are things we can prove and things we cannot prove. The purpose of Occam's razor is to prevent people making assumptions on that which we have no evidence for.

"We don't know how the universe came about, therefore God did it"
AKA
"I don't know the answer to X therefore I *DO* know the answer, it is (insert unfounded religious belief of your choice here)"

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What? You don't like to be called a genius?

Not in a "you stupid fucker" kind of way no, just like I wouldn't like it if someone screwed up their face at me in disgust and called me sexy.

The Quran says that Muslims cannot lie, so please don't be a hypocrite and tell me that you were genuinely stating that I am fantastically intelligent.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #48 - February 23, 2010, 01:36 PM

rationalizer,

ok I admit, I'm irritated by your posts, but you seem like a nice guy, so I guess I'll just ignore those irritating posts.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #49 - February 23, 2010, 01:47 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 23, 2010, 01:36 PM
rationalizer,

ok I admit, I'm irritated by your posts, but you seem like a nice guy, so I guess I'll just ignore those irritating posts.

I will show you respect, but I will not respect what you believe. Let's face it, your religion doesn't respect trinity believers, atheists, or polytheists - so why should your religion command respect from anywhere else?

Personally I ONLY care about the truth. What the truth is is irrelevant, I only care that I have it. I'd rather spend my life knowing a miserable truth than believing a happy lie.

I suspect that you will probably always believe in Islam, despite the countless scientific evidence that proves it wrong. But I on the other hand am perfectly capable of being converted to any religious belief system because unlike yourself I am willing to change my mind based on evidence.

I think personal insults are fruitless, so it would be best if they were avoided.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #50 - February 23, 2010, 01:50 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 23, 2010, 01:47 PM
I will show you respect, but I will not respect what you believe. Let's face it, your religion doesn't respect trinity believers, atheists, or polytheists - so why should your religion command respect from anywhere else?

Personally I ONLY care about the truth. What the truth is is irrelevant, I only care that I have it. I'd rather spend my life knowing a miserable truth than believing a happy lie.

I suspect that you will probably always believe in Islam, despite the countless scientific evidence that proves it wrong. But I on the other hand am perfectly capable of being converted to any religious belief system because unlike yourself I am willing to change my mind based on evidence.

I think personal insults are fruitless, so it would be best if they were avoided.

+1

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #51 - February 23, 2010, 01:55 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 23, 2010, 01:47 PM
I will show you respect, but I will not respect what you believe. Let's face it, your religion doesn't respect trinity believers, atheists, or polytheists - so why should your religion command respect from anywhere else?

Personally I ONLY care about the truth. What the truth is is irrelevant, I only care that I have it. I'd rather spend my life knowing a miserable truth than believing a happy lie.

I suspect that you will probably always believe in Islam, despite the countless scientific evidence that proves it wrong. But I on the other hand am perfectly capable of being converted to any religious belief system because unlike yourself I am willing to change my mind based on evidence.

I think personal insults are fruitless, so it would be best if they were avoided.

Ok, you seem to think I haven't been "polite" with you because you're abusing my religion?!!! Look around you, dear... everyone is mocking my religion in this site... I have no right to object, this is their club and if I don't like it i can simply leave...

What's irritating about your posts is your attitude in making an argument... anyway, I don't care to explain further.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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