@ ninurta
Come again? The Bible says Noah's flood is not older than the Babylonian civilization?!!
I never once said that, I don't care what the bible says, what I said was that the bible is from after the babylonian civilization had fallen.
Noah and his people are, according to scripture, one of the earliest humans who walked the earth...
According to scripture? The Vedas don't say that!!!!!! (I'm not hindu, but you get my point). If you don't get my point, I don't have scriptures, you talking about the Bible or the Quran? If the Bible, say the Bible. And the bible my friend, is wrong.
And the Bible says Moses existed much later than the establishment of Israel?
Uh? No. The Bible existed after the establishment of Israel, but it does say that Abraham existed after the establishment of Israel. He lived in Ur of the Chaldees if that counts? So in a sense, since Moses came after Abraham, who lived in the chaldean Ur, yeah it says that.
What Bible are you reading, son?
None. I used to read the KJV, the JPS and NIV
Oh, of course not, it's the evil Israelites who had to steal the story of Sragon's birth and claim it to Moses
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Or simply that good myths get passed around and stick around, I wouldn't call it stealing. Especially since most myths come from some place prior. For example, the Epic of Atrahasis, its a borrowing from a sumerian story, and an elaboration upon it. And maybe the sumerians got theirs from some place else, who knows? I wouldn't call it stealing, there was no copyright.
No one is hiding anything... cultures are affected by each other's stories.. the point here is there is NO proof of who copied from whom. The only valid proof in your case, is if Sargon's birth story was written long before the time Moses supposedly existed, but the fact is it was written ~500 *after* the time Moses is believed to have existed.
I don't care when Moses was believed to have existed, all I know, is that I doubt he ever did. Though Sargon existed over a thousand years before Moses, so maybe the story dates back to his time? Who knows.
Oh, is that so? So because they sometimes seemed to accredit the source of their stories, ALL their copied stories must have mentioned the source.
Not all of them, it depends on whether it was directly from another story in which they copied. Some stories they wrote down were from legends they borrowed, and had with them, and weren't just taken from other texts. But yeah, they did, want proof? I have one story in particular that comes to mind immediately that comes right out and says they fused a text from Babylon with one from Assyria, look up "The Harab Myth"
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.. are you saying that Sargon's birth story is NOT a 7th century BC Neo-Assiryan account? Yes/No?
Yeah, and the Torah is a 3rd/2nd century BCE account, is it not?
Then just because there is no archeological evidence to a Noah's flood story before the Babalyonian one, then this must conclusively mean that the flood story first appeared in the epic of Gilgamesh... yeah, right.
You misunderstood me. As why would you look in archaeology? No, what I am saying is that Noah's flood has absolutely no possibility, it is impossible for it to have ever happened. Period. And there is absolutely no evidence it did (because it is impossible). Actually, I think there is as much evidence for Noah as there is for Atrahasis, Deucalion and even Etana's flight into space.
As for the flood story first appearing in Gilgamesh? Umm.....besides the fact that the Gilgamesh epic was written and developed from over centuries of time, appearing in some of the earliest texts of myths, and the flood in the earliest did occur (mind you, it was only a devestating flood in lower mesopotamia), in which it developed from, I'd say yeah, it is older.
The point you keep missing is that you cannot convince someone who believes God exists and God is telling these stories, you cannot convince them of the falsehood of these claims unless you DO establish that these stories were told much earlier than the believer thinks they were told for the first time.
I don't care, my point isn't to convince you, I'm merely responding to your posts. I don't honestly care what you believe.
Let me explain with an example... Believers think Moses was born some time in the 12th century BC.. if you could date the Sargon's birth story to before 12th century BC, then you have a solid proof that would shatter to pieces the faith of the believer. Because in this case, the believer has no option but to believe that the Moses' birth story was copied from Sargon's birth story and not the other way around.
Sargon was born earlier than that, sometime in the 2000's BCE. Like Moses, his story was written long after his death. Does it really matter though? If you believe Moses's story is older (it may be, who knows?), and that its true, thats your perogative.
Like I said, I didn't believe the video poster at first, but after I checked his story, all the facts matched his claims:
1- Sargon's birth story and Moses' birth story are ineed very very similar.
2- Jewish history does place Moses to have existed around 12th century BC
3- Historical/archeological evidence does show that Sargon lived around 22nd century BC.
The story is similar to alot of Birth stories of legendary kings, my point is that it is similar. Maybe the assyrians did borrow from the hebrews, I don't know. but since there was no Torah in the 7th century BCE as far as we know, its a bit hard to say that it is. Especially since the oldest one we have is from the hellenistic era.
Conclusion? Moses' birth story is fake...
Words like Real/Unreal/Fake/True just don't fit well with myths, they just miss the point. I don't see the story as fake, I just see it as a myth. Mythology wasn't meant to have such words put on them, and when they are, it just sounds silly to say they are true or real, and pointless to say unreal/fake. Are they fake/false? Who knows, maybe Moses did float down the river, and maybe Romulus and Remus really did go down the Tiber in a basket, and maybe Sargon went down the Euphrates as well. Maybe they are all true stories. I highly doubt it, but its possible, as wood does float.
it was copied from the birth story of a king of another nation --> Muhammed copied a Jewish lie. --> Muhammed is not a prophet.
Muhammad copied alot of lies, one of which is called hell, but what do I care? Slow down, all I am saying is that cultures borrowed myths. are myths lies? Well maybe by a modern definition, but I seldom use the modern definition. A myth is just a story, whether its true or not is irrelevant.
Only after a little research, I learned that while Sargon did exist in 22nd century BC, his birth story was a 7th century BC Neo-Assyrian account.
Conclusion? I was deceived... There is no proof that Moses birth story is fake.
Or simply that stories pass around and around, and who knows how long the story was told until it was finally written down.
As for proving Moses's birth story is fake, well thats impossible, as you can't prove a negative, especiallly when it has to do with a story of an exslave who really if true would be to insignificant to the time to know. Maybe it is true, I don't believe it is. I cant prove a negative, thats impossible. All I know is that its a myth, and usually myths are based on a grain of truth, so who knows. I just have no evidence nor a reason to believe.
As for the exodus, I know it didn't happen, as there would be physical evidence, and there is not a grain of it for the biblical exodus.
I'm pretty certain there isn't 'strong' evidence for the existence of Jesus, from what I know the stories of Jesus were taken from the myths of Horus and around the same time as his supposed existence there were quite a few messiahs walking the streets.
Well possibly from the crucified savior that came just before Jesus, but maybe horus first.
The story was probably not composed in the 7th century, but was copied from much older tablets. As has been shown with many of the other stories, documents copied during the reign of Ashurbanipal. The Epic of Gilgamesh was also found in the library of Ashurbanipal. And the story of Gilgamesh and of Sargon are not the only similarity between the Mesopotamian myths and the Bible(/Qur'an).
Indeed. Also, stories would circulate for ages before they were written down. Who the tales were originally attributed to were usually lost to time. Some stories I think were directly borrowed, others such as the flood specifically, I don't think they knew it originated with someone else. It seems to be one of those stories that circulated so much it ended up everwhere from India to Rome and back.
Topic: Parallel myths (split from Exodus thread)