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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Reformed Islam of COEM

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  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #120 - March 30, 2010, 03:38 PM
    I think your missing the point.

    What exactly is the overarching guiding reason for you to accept certain aspects of Islam-mythology? What make you value Islam's mythology over others?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #121 - March 30, 2010, 03:40 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 30, 2010, 03:32 PM
    I think it is ironic that you will, without a second thought, accept any Muslim sect as 'Muslim' as long as they literally believe in Allah in some way, shape, or form. Why is that? Why would you overlook every other "blasphemy" a sect might propose with the exception that they must not commit the blasphemy of saying "Allah" does not literally exist?

    That doesn't make sense. I think the issue here is that you are so accustomed to thinking of Islam in that way, it is difficult for you to accept a wider view.

    I am a Muslim. I don't believe that Allah literally exists. I recognize that the founder of Islamic mythology, Muhammad, did believe Allah literally exists. His followers, the heirs of Islam, continued that assumption. Muslims like myself have found that this was mistaken, so we have adjusted our theology to reflect that. What is wrong with that? You are saying now that we must leave Islam altogether because of this? As a Muslim I appreciate the desire for there to be an Allah, I think it is a core human desire to want there to be something out there that has our back. The religious Muslims aren't happy unless I literally believe Islam is 100% truth, and the Ex-Muslims aren't happy unless I'm trashing Islam at every turn and calling Muhammad a pedophile. Are those my only 2 options? There is a 3rd option and that is the way I am upon. In the time that I have practiced my view of Islam I have not yet met an over indulgent hater or lover of Islam that it cannot set straight.


    So do you accept Bin Laden is a true Muslim and his views should be accepted as just as valid as yours - or is he wrong?
  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #122 - March 30, 2010, 03:49 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 30, 2010, 03:20 PM
    Islam is just as rich as any of those traditions. What you refer to as the "horror" of Islam is really the "horror" of the ancient world. Islam's horrors are not unique. Islam is a product of 7th century tribal Arabia, everything about it comes from the culture of that time and place.


    Which parts of the massacre of Banu Qurayza and assorted other horrors are not the product of Islam and Mohammad?

    The ancient world is what it is, people don't try to make a religion or sect out of it in general.

    Please spell out, precisely, what is the mythology of Islam, and what differentiates it from the literalist reading of Islam.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #123 - March 30, 2010, 03:50 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 30, 2010, 03:38 PM
    What exactly is the overarching guiding reason for you to accept certain aspects of Islam-mythology? What make you value Islam's mythology over others?


    I second these questions.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #124 - March 30, 2010, 04:01 PM
    If I were to lay down precepts for understanding Islamic mythology as opposed to Islam the religion I would say:

    1) We are Muslims who have realized that the religion of Islam is riddled with false myths, superstitions, contradictions, and immoral and unreasonable propositions.

    2) In light of this realization, we have decided to adjust our reading of Islam, Islamic theology, and Islamic fiqh. It is our prerogative as Muslims to do so.

    3) The fact that Islam lacks factual basis or historical validity as a whole makes it a mythology. We thus believe that it is more proper to refer/or think of Islam as 'Islamic mythology' or the like thereof.

    4) As people affiliated to Islamic mythology our primary interests are two; (1) Clarifying the mythological, cultural, and historical origins of Islam, and (2) Extracting positive practices and ideas from the mythology of Islam.

    5) Islamic mythology is part of mankind's collective heritage. Like most of mankind's heritage it is something that can be described as a 'mixed bag' (consists of both bad and good). As people who are directly affiliated to or choose to be affiliated to Islamic mythology, we accept that. As is being done with heritages the world over, we hope to forge a more positive reading of Islamic mythology for ourselves and the generations of Muslims to come. As is stated in the Quran, "Truth stands clear from falsehood". We intend for the truths of Islamic mythology to live on while it's falsehoods fall to the wayside.
  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #125 - March 30, 2010, 04:05 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 30, 2010, 04:01 PM
    If I were to lay down precepts for understanding Islamic mythology as opposed to Islam the religion I would say:

    1) We are Muslims who have realized that the religion of Islam is riddled with false myths, superstitions, contradictions, and immoral and unreasonable propositions.

    2) In light of this realization, we have decided to adjust our reading of Islam, Islamic theology, and Islamic fiqh. It is our prerogative as Muslims to do so.

    3) The fact that Islam lacks factual basis or historical validity as a whole makes it a mythology. We thus believe that it is more proper to refer/or think of Islam as 'Islamic mythology' or the like thereof.

    4) As people affiliated to Islamic mythology our primary interests are two; (1) Clarifying the mythological, cultural, and historical origins of Islam, and (2) Extracting positive practices and ideas from the mythology of Islam.

    5) Islamic mythology is part of mankind's collective heritage. Like most of mankind's heritage it is something that can be described as a 'mixed bag' (consists of both bad and good). As people who are directly affiliated to or choose to be affiliated to Islamic mythology, we accept that. As is being done with heritages the world over, we hope to forge a more positive reading of Islamic mythology for ourselves and the generations of Muslims to come. As is stated in the Quran, "Truth stands clear from falsehood". We intend for the truths of Islamic mythology to live on while it's falsehoods fall to the wayside.


    I think I now have a clearer understanding of what you're going for. And to a certain extent sympathize with that. It's sort of similar to the being a "cultural" muslim and valuing the symbols and heritage that is often part and parcel of Islam. I think parts of me still values Islam as a sort of cultural/civilizational thing - it is part of our heritage and historical experience. Its symbols and 'mythology' have a profound effect on even the lives of an ex-muslims.  Even my username is in essence a harkening back to Islamic mythology.

    Thanks for clarifying. Smiley
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #126 - March 30, 2010, 04:07 PM

    OK, but once you have deducted and delineated the mythology, what next? Islam just becomes nothing. What is the affiliation with this husk of mythology?
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #127 - March 30, 2010, 04:11 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 30, 2010, 04:07 PM
    OK, but once you have deducted and delineated the mythology, what next? Islam just becomes nothing. What is the affiliation with this husk of mythology?



    Well I think he's really just a more specific variant of the category of a cultural/ethnic muslim. So it might be a husk of a religion to you, but to a person with a muslim background it is a relevant part of his heritage and key aspects of his life. He's basically trying to turn islam into how the chinese have turned their old religious beliefs into just traditions that they take semi-seriously.

    He's basically trying to turn Islam into what hinduism is to a lot of hindus. Just a cultural tradition and identity thing - not a ideological one.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #128 - March 30, 2010, 04:13 PM

    Good luck with that  Afro

    (I am still trying to understand what exactly the mythology is - he compared Mo with Buddha, meditating and trying to reconcile this and that - that just isn't tenable as far as I'm concerned)

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #129 - March 30, 2010, 04:16 PM
    Is it really that untenable? Jews have done it already as have Christians. I obviously don't subsribe to his views, but I can get its a step in the right direction. Admitting the Quran is man-made is always a step in the right direction. And really, we cannot expect all Muslims to either be believers or turn into apostates that reject everything. I think the "cultural" muslim is the next best thing.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #130 - March 30, 2010, 04:24 PM

    In my opinion, turning Mo into a benign Buddha like figure is untenable, yes.

    Being a 'cultural' Muslim in the way that others like Jews or Hindus are is not just a long way off, I'm not sure the comparisons are even apt. Jews have a very special and specific history that has shaped them, Hinduism is just a very fluid, loose, capacious philosphy, intertwined with Indian culture anyway. Being a 'cultural' Muslim should be compared with being a 'cultural' Christian, because these are universalist religions with common evangelical impulses. You could say that in the secular West, in Europe and America, millions of people lead lives voided of any Christian reference beyond celebrating Christmas with gusto and living in a culture that has the art of Renaissance Italy as part of their heritage. Would a Muslim equivalent of that just be Muslims celebrating Eid and little more than that? Another thing about Islam is that it is tied so closely to its Arab roots, salafism has taken up the slack in that respect.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #131 - March 30, 2010, 04:28 PM
    .
  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #132 - March 30, 2010, 04:29 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 30, 2010, 04:24 PM
    In my opinion, turning Mo into a benign Buddha like figure is untenable, yes.

    Being a 'cultural' Muslim in the way that others like Jews or Hindus are is not just a long way off, I'm not sure the comparisons are even apt. Jews have a very special and specific history that has shaped them, Hinduism is just a very fluid, loose, capacious philosphy, intertwined with Indian culture anyway. Being a 'cultural' Muslim should be compared with being a 'cultural' Christian, because these are universalist religions with common evangelical impulses. You could say that in the secular West, in Europe and America, millions of people lead lives voided of any Christian reference beyond celebrating Christmas with gusto and living in a culture that has the art of Renaissance Italy as part of their heritage. Would a Muslim equivalent of that just be Muslims celebrating Eid and little more than that? Another thing about Islam is that it is tied so closely to its Arab roots, salafism has taken up the slack in that respect.



    Well yeah, Mo can't really become a Buddha like figure. Obviously that's absurd.

    I'm not really sure how it would apply practically.. which is precisely why I'm not a cultural muslim - once you take out the dogmatism.. Islam sort of becomes meaningless, as it has in my life. I'm sure IslamMythology can enlighten us on this.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #133 - March 30, 2010, 04:31 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 30, 2010, 04:28 PM
    In case you are curious, I support both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as necessary. I am opposed to Israel and Hamas (and other Pali jihadis) but support a two state solution, out of necessity. I am opposed to both Russia and the Chechen jihadis but would like to see an autonomous, secular Chechnya come out at the end. I would love to see the Kurds and Baluchi get a state, in principle. And yes I eat pork (on occasion), drink alcohol (moderately), and gamble (moderately). I consider "hard" recreation drugs to be forbidden (in my ethos) and "soft" recreation drugs to be disliked. I have no problem with people engaging in consensual sex. I have no problem with arranged marriages between adults, as long as both parties freely agree. Any other q's let me know.


    That clarifies a lot, thanks. I can get you are essentially just a secular human being that finds solace in Islamic symbols, am I right?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #134 - March 30, 2010, 04:33 PM

    'Solace' is the right word. A way of orientating one self by association. I just honestly can't see otherwise how any of those attitudes can be squared with Islam. He's just a normal guy, inspite of Islam, not because of what he takes from it. Like you, me, everyone else in the world.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #135 - March 30, 2010, 04:35 PM
    Honestly billy, I know a lot of "christians" who are similar. They think Jesus was pretty profound, like wearing crosses, loved watching passion of the christ, and think biblical imagery and symbols are wonderful. But otherwise.. they are through and through atheists and infidels. I think its a wonderful thing, taking the teeth out of Islam. We need more of that.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #136 - March 30, 2010, 04:39 PM
    Actually, come to think of it, in many ways my own parents are a believer in Islam-Mythology - especially my dad. Which is why they were never really that bothered with my apostasy (well my mum was a bit). My dad basically treats Islam as a sort of cultural trinket and symbolism that he likes keeping around to remind him of his dad and the old country.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #137 - March 30, 2010, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 30, 2010, 04:35 PM
    Honestly billy, I know a lot of "christians" who are similar. They think Jesus was pretty profound, like wearing crosses, loved watching passion of the christ, and think biblical imagery and symbols are wonderful. But otherwise.. they are through and through atheists and infidels. I think its a wonderful thing, taking the teeth out of Islam. We need more of that.


    I know we need the de-fanging and castration of Islam. Any step towards it is a good step for humanity (and for Muslims). I just wonder if it is possible in the same way that you describe. The dynamics, and the phases of Islam are very different, and volatile.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #138 - March 30, 2010, 04:48 PM
    Yeah, I'm doubtful about the viability of this way of thinking too. I really cannot imagine "islam mythology" being too widespread. The way Islam was built it has self-correcting mechanisms to prevent it's core dogmatic message from being diluted or "redefined" as IslamMythology is doing. Islam's dogma always will come to bite the non-serious muslim in the ass.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #139 - March 30, 2010, 04:53 PM
    .
  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #140 - March 30, 2010, 05:01 PM

    Those are ethno-nationalistic extremisms that might have used the cloak of Buddhist priests for whatever purpose they served, but it wasn't Buddhism they were dying for. The kame-kaze pilots died for the Emperor and for the idea of a Imperial Japan, and in the name of the Emperor and Imperial Japan, they commited atrocities against Buddhists in China and Asia for Imperial Japan, motivated by racial supermacism intertwined with Emperor Worship. They didn't carry out their suicide missions for the Buddha, or have the name of the Buddha on their lips when they died, or with the idea of expanding the domain of Buddhism.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #141 - March 30, 2010, 05:02 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 30, 2010, 04:29 PM
    Well yeah, Mo can't really become a Buddha like figure. Obviously that's absurd.


    Wasn't there a thread posted here about why liberal Muslims are very uneasy about Buddhism? Or was it a comment that either Manat or Nour made? It was quite interesting.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #142 - March 30, 2010, 05:06 PM
    .
  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #143 - March 30, 2010, 05:08 PM

    But what is the mythology? You keep comparing it to Greek mythology. Spell it out precisely.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #144 - March 30, 2010, 05:12 PM
    .
  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #145 - March 30, 2010, 05:13 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 30, 2010, 05:06 PM
    I just realized I should be quoting the posts I am replying to lol. Why are you guys so skeptical? If the Greek religion could die and become Greek mythology so can Islam the religion die and become Islamic mythology. You guys left didn't you? Besides, do you realize how much fun it is to be a Muslim and an Atheist, negate all the bullshit in Islam, and make the Muslim fundies eat it? They all hate 1 and only 1 thing about me, that I call myself 'Muslim'. THEY want to control Islam. THEY want to control Muslims. They don't want anyone offering a reading of Islam that is contrary to theirs. Why should we leave Islam to the idiots? Lets take control of our own tradition, enough is enough. And I'll tell you what, this reading of Islam is bulletproof (I will pause as you laugh)... no, but it really is lol. We are dealing very straight and simple truths here, no rhetoric, no smoke and mirrors like they use. We don't fear facts like they do. Any time I have been involved in debate with them, they just run away. Think about it, if you have any affinity for Islam then adjust your position. There is no need to deny yourself from anything that makes you happy.


    The problem is you talk about the fundamentalists who hate you and your interpretation. This is incredibly naive. Its not just the fundamentalists who hate you and reject you - its 90% of Muslims full stop, from benign, peace loving, moderate practitioners, to nominal Muslims who only celebrate Eid but still fear Allah and think Mohammad was the greatest thing that ever happened - none of these are fundamentalists, none of them are extremists, but they would still consider you to be a loathsome kaffir, your ideas detestable, stupid and preposterous.

    That is what you are up against.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #146 - March 30, 2010, 05:13 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 30, 2010, 05:12 PM
    As far as spirituality, I don't think Buddha is ahead of anyone else. 


    I think he was ahead of Mo.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #147 - March 30, 2010, 05:14 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 30, 2010, 05:06 PM
    I just realized I should be quoting the posts I am replying to lol. Why are you guys so skeptical? If the Greek religion could die and become Greek mythology so can Islam the religion die and become Islamic mythology. You guys left didn't you? Besides, do you realize how much fun it is to be a Muslim and an Atheist, negate all the bullshit in Islam, and make the Muslim fundies eat it? They all hate 1 and only 1 thing about me, that I call myself 'Muslim'. THEY want to control Islam. THEY want to control Muslims. They don't want anyone offering a reading of Islam that is contrary to theirs. Why should we leave Islam to the idiots? Lets take control of our own tradition, enough is enough. And I'll tell you what, this reading of Islam is bulletproof (I will pause as you laugh)... no, but it really is lol. We are dealing very straight and simple truths here, no rhetoric, no smoke and mirrors like they use. We don't fear facts like they do. Any time I have been involved in debate with them, they just run away. Think about it, if you have any affinity for Islam then adjust your position. There is no need to deny yourself from anything that makes you happy.


    I'm only skeptical as an individual. I come from a Muslim background too, so I have thought along your lines at one point in my life. I know many Muslims that sort of would share your ideas - maybe not so overtly as you do perhaps. And yeah, I think its awesome that you are pissing of the fundies - blurring what it means to be a Muslim is a good strategy IMO. They are often very paranoid about any other "types" of muslims - liberal, progressive, cultural etc. And if it makes you happy then so be it.

    I think you and Tailor would get along. He's a sort of a pseudo-muslim who takes everything in the Quran on a spiritual and escoteric level.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #148 - March 30, 2010, 05:18 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 30, 2010, 05:08 PM
    But what is the mythology? You keep comparing it to Greek mythology. Spell it out precisely.




    Islamic mythology is a body of myths and legends belonging to the Muslims (or followers of Muhammad) which recognize a spiritual tradition identified with Abraham and culminating in Muhammad. Greek mythology is the body of myths and legends belonging to the ancient Greeks.
  • Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
     Reply #149 - March 30, 2010, 05:27 PM
    .
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