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Theme Changer

 Topic: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love

 (Read 10647 times)
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  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #30 - March 16, 2010, 09:00 PM

    Yeah its obvious the faithful can't take the heat. Did you see Hassan1 crying like a little bitch above?  Cry  eusa_boohoo

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #31 - March 16, 2010, 09:00 PM

     Cheesy
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #32 - March 16, 2010, 09:02 PM

    When I use the violin smiley I think of the Schindler's List violin theme. Thats probably the sad song going through Hassan1's head as he wrote his immensely gay post.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #33 - March 16, 2010, 09:03 PM

    I swear I will cock-slap any muslim who compares himself or herself with the Jews of WW2.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #34 - March 16, 2010, 09:05 PM

    Yeah its obvious the faithful can't take the heat. Did you see Hassan1 crying like a little bitch above?  Cry  eusa_boohoo



    Ye that's the difference Hitchens would never say he hates a religious person just because he is religious, as BD mentioned Hitchens and the other 3 all have religious friends, Hitchens says that he only loses a bit of intellectual respect for that person. However you will find religious people who actually hate those such as Hitchens just because he criticises religion. Shows who is the better human being at the end of the day.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #35 - March 16, 2010, 09:08 PM

    I swear I will cock-slap any muslim who compares himself or herself with the Jews of WW2.


    Oh no dear Blackdog. In the minds of today's whiney western musulmans the Jews had it *good* compared to the plight of the ummah.  mysmilie_977

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #36 - March 16, 2010, 09:14 PM

    I swear I will cock-slap any muslim who compares himself or herself with the Jews of WW2.

    win for cock-slap - never heard that before  Cheesy

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #37 - March 16, 2010, 09:14 PM

    he drinks scotch, Iblis! he believes a shot a day is healthy .... I wish! Cheesy


    Actually I have heard that one serving of alcohol a day -- whether wine, beer, or hard alcohol, as long it's only one serving -- is good for you.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #38 - March 16, 2010, 09:18 PM

    Oh no dear Blackdog. In the minds of today's whiney western musulmans the Jews had it *good* compared to the plight of the ummah.  mysmilie_977


     finmad
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #39 - March 18, 2010, 03:47 PM

    Rather than respond individually, I will attempt to answer some of the general points raised in the thread.

    The more discerning of you will realise that there is a difference between me and Hitch-Kins (portmanteau of Dawkins and Hitchens). I do not write books, for instance. Millions of people do not hang on every word I say. I do not sell out auditoriums. I do not have a PhD and I am not a well-regarded journalist. The list goes on.

    However, there are similarities. I, like Hitch-Kins, enjoy forays into unfamiliar subjects. I have no background in economics, but put me in a room with a neo-liberal, and I’ll shout him down till I’m blue in the face. However, my rants on economic equality, outside of the room and in academia, will fall on deaf ears. The reason for this is relatively straightforward; I have no background in economics.

    However, the same principle does not seem to apply to Hitch-Kins. Their pronouncements on religion, philosophy and theology are generally uninformed. Neither have studied religion in any great depth (bar, perhaps, superficial readings of a few sacred texts) yet their Atheist followers will gush over their every word and quote, almost verbatim, every one of their witty quips.

    The fact that I am largely ignorant about ‘Manat’ is irrelevant; I am not selling books on “Orientalist interpretations of Quranic scripture”. Hitch-Kins ignorance is more consequential – he is selling books on religion, despite his shaky grounding in that subject.

    Baring this in mind, I find it odd that many ‘free thinking rationalists’ are so enamoured by the arguments of individuals who only have a superficial insight into the topic they are writing about. And then, of course, there is the immense irony involved in ‘Free-thinkers’ herding themselves into groups and following the pronouncements of their Athiest pastors.

    With regards to the arrogance of Hitchens - this is just something I have noticed from reading his articles, books and watching his lectures. He, to me at least, comes across as relatively arrogant.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #40 - March 18, 2010, 04:19 PM

    @hassan1

    My argument still holds. He's not selling books about any particular religion. His is a critique and a rejection of religion itself. Does one need to be an expert religion X, Y or Z in order to reject it and ridicule it?

    I don't think there is any doubt that when it comes to the topic of religion Christopher Hitchens is a polemic first and foremost. We all know that and love him for his rants. Thats his schtick and he makes succint and true points in the process too. So why are you complaining about him again?

    Because he's arrogant and meen??  Cry  eusa_boohoo (schindlers list violin theme)

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #41 - March 18, 2010, 04:31 PM

    Christopher Hitchens comes across as really arrogant and conceited; him and Dawkins both, in fact. It's a wonder why so many free thinking rationalists hang on every word they say, quote them in life as if they were saints and repeat, almost verbatim, every one of their arguments. I would go do far as to say that the 2 have effectively become professional atheists; they make money out of not believing.

    And considering that neither of them have any background in theology/philosophy (Hitchens is a journalist; Dawkins a scientist), it is a wonder why their pronouncements on religion are so popular in Atheist circles! There are better, more intelgient atheists out there who just do not get a look in because of these 2 brash evangelists.

    It just goes to show that most people, religious or not, need someone (or something) to follow.

    Dude, people are not following them. They just make really good points, that's all.

    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #42 - March 18, 2010, 05:25 PM

    Baring this in mind, I find it odd that many ‘free thinking rationalists’ are so enamoured by the arguments of individuals who only have a superficial insight into the topic they are writing about. And then, of course, there is the immense irony involved in ‘Free-thinkers’ herding themselves into groups and following the pronouncements of their Athiest pastors.

     Cheesy
    Quote
    With regards to the arrogance of Hitchens - this is just something I have noticed from reading his articles, books and watching his lectures. He, to me at least, comes across as relatively arrogant.

    I agree - in fact I would say he is obnoxious, rude, self-centric and arrogant. Nothing like Dawkins, and particularly Harris & Dennet.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #43 - March 18, 2010, 05:47 PM

    While I like Hitchens I have to admit that he is ever so slightly up himself. If you ever watch his interviews or debates you'll notice that he talks right over people, and he seems to be in love with the sound of his own voice sometimes.

    And in any case I agree with Hassan1's criticism of the so-called 'New Atheists.' Not that they necessarily are like cult-leaders but that they don't know shit about philosophy or religion (well, that's certainly true for Hitchens and Dawkins), which is clearly evidenced in their books and speaches.

    If you watch Hitchens' debates, you'll notice that he dances around questions, rather than answering them. Either that, or he'll simply start talking about how stupid or bad religion is. Which is frustrating because a lot of the questions put to him by theists even I could answer. If you want an example of this, then watch the video on  Youtube where it's Hitchens on a panel with William Lane Craig, Douglas Wilson and Lee Strobel.

    I think Dawkins' central argument against the existence of God is evolution, which is a complete non sequitur, as far as I can tell.

    As for Harris, he doesn't argue against the existence of God or the like, he simply regards faith as dangerous and therefore thinks that it needs to be jettisoned.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #44 - March 18, 2010, 07:20 PM

    Zebedee so who do you recommend one you should watch? Or books to read?
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #45 - March 20, 2010, 11:22 PM

    Zebedee so who do you recommend one you should watch? Or books to read?


    I think Richard Carrier gave a pretty decent response to the 'fine-tuning' and teleological arguments.

    My last post was maybe overly critical, but I know that I'm not alone in thinking that Dawkins in particular seems to not even give a shit about understanding the position of the other side. I think it's pretty telling that he's been asked a number of times to debate William Lane Craig, but has always pussied out.

    Hitchens is really well read, and clearly intelligent.  But I always get frustrated watching his debates because he hardly ever answers the questions.

    Just watch his debates and you'll know what I mean. The one where he debates Frank Turek, for instance. Turek gives a number of arguments in favour of theism and Hitchens just brushes it off as 'white noise.' Again, when he's asked to account for moral conscience, he just states the fact that it is the case, and doesn't even try to explain why it's the case.

    I think a lot of people just dismiss religion as a load of crap, and they may be right. However, the problem is that the questions that the religious pose are real questions, and so as long as atheists neglect to answer them, people are going to continue thinking that religion does answer them.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #46 - March 20, 2010, 11:33 PM

    I think Richard Carrier gave a pretty decent response to the 'fine-tuning' and teleological arguments.


    I like Richard Carrier and I think he deserves more airtime than what he gets. His book "Sense and Goodness Without God" is phenomenal.

    Quote
    My last post was maybe overly critical, but I know that I'm not alone in thinking that Dawkins in particular seems to not even give a shit about understanding the position of the other side. I think it's pretty telling that he's been asked a number of times to debate William Lane Craig, but has always pussied out.


    Hmm.. I wasn't aware of that. I've not seen anyone debate William Lane Craig. I thought it was the other way round, where WCG only wants to debate someone with a philosophical bent.

    Quote
    Hitchens is really well read, and clearly intelligent.  But I always get frustrated watching his debates because he hardly ever answers the questions.

    Just watch his debates and you'll know what I mean. The one where he debates Frank Turek, for instance. Turek gives a number of arguments in favour of theism and Hitchens just brushes it off as 'white noise.' Again, when he's asked to account for moral conscience, he just states the fact that it is the case, and doesn't even try to explain why it's the case.


    I thought I was alone in thinking this and I'm glad there is someone on this forum who agrees. I have seen Hitchens debate Frank Turek twice and I'm sat there thinking "For fuck sake Hitch those arguments have been dealt with before, please get your finger on the pulse!" I thout "God is Not Great" was a good and funny book. But the book is more a refutation of religion and not a refutation of God.

    Quote
    I think a lot of people just dismiss religion as a load of crap, and they may be right. However, the problem is that the questions that the religious pose are real questions, and so as long as atheists neglect to answer them, people are going to continue thinking that religion does answer them.


    Totally.  Afro
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #47 - March 20, 2010, 11:37 PM

    :DI agree - in fact I would say he is obnoxious, rude, self-centric and arrogant.

    You forgot to add "lovable".
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #48 - March 21, 2010, 12:04 AM

    ..in an intellectual babbling baffoon way

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #49 - March 21, 2010, 12:07 AM

    It would be great if Salman Rushdie could pop in to this forum - any way of contacting him?
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #50 - March 21, 2010, 12:10 AM

    Try this:

    http://www.randomhouse.com/rhpg/features/salmanrushdie/contact.html
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #51 - March 21, 2010, 12:33 AM

    Hmm.. I wasn't aware of that. I've not seen anyone debate William Lane Craig. I thought it was the other way round, where WCG only wants to debate someone with a philosophical bent.

    I thought I was alone in thinking this and I'm glad there is someone on this forum who agrees. I have seen Hitchens debate Frank Turek twice and I'm sat there thinking "For fuck sake Hitch those arguments have been dealt with before, please get your finger on the pulse!" I thout "God is Not Great" was a good and funny book. But the book is more a refutation of religion and not a refutation of God.


    Well, Craig has debated Hitchens, as well as Richard Carrier. You could find the Hitchens debate on Youtube, but I'm not sure you still can as the person who uploaded it had their account suspended or something.

    Anyway, Hitchens got his ass handed to him, and I say that as someone who likes him. He just doesn't deal with the issues, he simply tries to dance around them.

    And no, quite the opposite. Craig or his people contacted Dawkins and asked him to debate Craig while he was in the UK, and Dawkins simply replied with some crap about not debating someone who isn't at least a bishop. Which is funny because he debated John Lennox, who is a mathematician, not a cleric, several times.

    And yes. Hitchens book is an argument against the stupidity that's often caused or exacerbated by religion.

    But it's interesting. It may be that Hitchens simply doesn't care about disproving the existence of a god per se. I noticed that in the Turek debate he said, correctly, that none of the arguments Turek gave could prove theism, and more specifically Christian theism, to be true.

    Hitchens is, after all, an 'antitheist,' not an atheist as such. I doubt he'd care if Deism turned out to be true, and so as long as theists only offer arguments that support the existence of a god, rather than a theistic god, it may simply be that he doesn't care about refuting them.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #52 - March 21, 2010, 08:55 AM

    Well, Craig has debated Hitchens, as well as Richard Carrier. You could find the Hitchens debate on Youtube, but I'm not sure you still can as the person who uploaded it had their account suspended or something.


    How was the debate with Richard Carrier. He debated alongside Dan Barker with Hassanain Rajabali and Michael Corey. Have a search on Youtube. Actually, I posted those debates on here if you have not seen them already. The topic was called, "Does God Not Exist?"

    Quote
    Anyway, Hitchens got his ass handed to him, and I say that as someone who likes him. He just doesn't deal with the issues, he simply tries to dance around them.


    The thing is, all those arguments (ontological, teleological and cosmological) have been refuted many times since David Hume and Immanuel Kant. I know that Hitchens is a philosophy graduate and should have been well aware of the refutations and could have dealt them out.

    Quote
    And no, quite the opposite. Craig or his people contacted Dawkins and asked him to debate Craig while he was in the UK, and Dawkins simply replied with some crap about not debating someone who isn't at least a bishop. Which is funny because he debated John Lennox, who is a mathematician, not a cleric, several times.


    This would have been a great opportunity for Dawkins to have debated someone who really is credible. WCG isn't like a southern baptist minister who can be knocked over with the slightest breath. It's this guys job to prove the existence of God.

    Quote
    And yes. Hitchens book is an argument against the stupidity that's often caused or exacerbated by religion.

    But it's interesting. It may be that Hitchens simply doesn't care about disproving the existence of a god per se. I noticed that in the Turek debate he said, correctly, that none of the arguments Turek gave could prove theism, and more specifically Christian theism, to be true.

    Hitchens is, after all, an 'antitheist,' not an atheist as such. I doubt he'd care if Deism turned out to be true, and so as long as theists only offer arguments that support the existence of a god, rather than a theistic god, it may simply be that he doesn't care about refuting them.


    Yep, those arguments at a push can only show a rather indifferent deist god. The irony of all these arguments is that they can be placed under the belief system of any religion with a godhead, but what does that prove?

    It could be possible that Hitch let's out a quiet sigh of bewilderment when these arguments are presented and doesn't want to exert the effort.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #53 - March 21, 2010, 04:22 PM

    @hassan1

    My argument still holds. He's not selling books about any particular religion. His is a critique and a rejection of religion itself. Does one need to be an expert religion X, Y or Z in order to reject it and ridicule it?

    I don't think there is any doubt that when it comes to the topic of religion Christopher Hitchens is a polemic first and foremost. We all know that and love him for his rants. Thats his schtick and he makes succint and true points in the process too. So why are you complaining about him again?

    Because he's arrogant and meen??  Cry  eusa_boohoo (schindlers list violin theme)


    I don't quite see how it does hold, Iblis. If one is to criticise, Christianity, for instance (and sell books on said criticism) then i would expect that person to have a pretty sound background in Christian theology. If one is to criticise religion in general (and sell books on said criticism), then i would expect that person to have a pretty strong background in religious theology and philosophy. Whether the critiques are religion-specific or not is unimportant.

    Just to clarify - I have no issue with a person critiquing a subject of which he has little knowledge. We all do this. My problem lies with authors selling millions of books about topics which lie outside that author's field of expertise.


    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #54 - March 21, 2010, 04:24 PM

    4:34
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #55 - March 21, 2010, 08:54 PM

    How was the debate with Richard Carrier. He debated alongside Dan Barker with Hassanain Rajabali and Michael Corey. Have a search on Youtube. Actually, I posted those debates on here if you have not seen them already. The topic was called, "Does God Not Exist?"

    The thing is, all those arguments (ontological, teleological and cosmological) have been refuted many times since David Hume and Immanuel Kant. I know that Hitchens is a philosophy graduate and should have been well aware of the refutations and could have dealt them out.

    This would have been a great opportunity for Dawkins to have debated someone who really is credible. WCG isn't like a southern baptist minister who can be knocked over with the slightest breath. It's this guys job to prove the existence of God.

    Yep, those arguments at a push can only show a rather indifferent deist god. The irony of all these arguments is that they can be placed under the belief system of any religion with a godhead, but what does that prove?

    It could be possible that Hitch let's out a quiet sigh of bewilderment when these arguments are presented and doesn't want to exert the effort.


    I never saw Craig's debate with Carrier. It was about the historicity of Jesus, not the existence of God, as such. I may get round to watching it at some point. And I saw parts of his debate alongside Dan Barker. Wasn't bad from what I remember.

    The only arguments that Craig has that are even half way good are the fine-tuning argument and the Kalam cosmological argument. They sound impressive when they're presented to an ignorant pleb, but if you actually know something about the subject, they are pretty limited.

    I mean really, a mind can exist in a non-contingent, timeless and spaceless capacity? Retarded! I'm really shocked that more people don't point out the sheer stupidity of some of these arguments Craig uses.

    And it's precisely because Craig isn't a push-over that Dawkins doesn't want to debate him. He knows he'd get his ass handed to him, so he doesn't bother. He debated Lennox and got his ass handed to him.  How much worse it would be if he was on the other side of Craig?

    But I as an atheist would genuinely like them to debate, so that Dawkins can then lose and all his little fan-boys will realise that simply dismissing religion as a load of silly superstition isn't enough.

  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #56 - March 22, 2010, 03:10 AM

    Hitchens needs to get in shape and get off the whisky and ribeye steaks.

    Are you kidding? this is what makes him cool. Who doesn't love a public intellectual who's too drunk to take a shower !!
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #57 - March 22, 2010, 05:24 PM

    I never saw Craig's debate with Carrier. It was about the historicity of Jesus, not the existence of God, as such. I may get round to watching it at some point. And I saw parts of his debate alongside Dan Barker. Wasn't bad from what I remember.


    The debate was in two parts. The first one was in 2003 and was between Dan Barker and Hassanain Rajabali. The second one was the one which included Richard Carrier. Both debates were good. Although I found that the second debate got a bit sloppy.

    Quote
    The only arguments that Craig has that are even half way good are the fine-tuning argument and the Kalam cosmological argument. They sound impressive when they're presented to an ignorant pleb, but if you actually know something about the subject, they are pretty limited.


    The Kalam is very old and dates back to medieval muslim theologians. It's a re-working of the cosmological argument. We went through this argument when studying Islamic theology. You have to be fairly tuned into the language that's used to work out the sophistry.

    Quote
    I mean really, a mind can exist in a non-contingent, timeless and spaceless capacity? Retarded! I'm really shocked that more people don't point out the sheer stupidity of some of these arguments Craig uses.


    The thing is, that exception is only made for God because the theologians say that his existence is necessary not contingent. What one has to remember always is that these arguments can be placed under the being of your choice.

    Quote
    And it's precisely because Craig isn't a push-over that Dawkins doesn't want to debate him. He knows he'd get his ass handed to him, so he doesn't bother. He debated Lennox and got his ass handed to him.  How much worse it would be if he was on the other side of Craig?

    But I as an atheist would genuinely like them to debate, so that Dawkins can then lose and all his little fan-boys will realise that simply dismissing religion as a load of silly superstition isn't enough.


    Craig is a theologian so his job is proving God. It needs a philosopher to debate him. But I don't really care much for debates and prefer that one is presented with the arguments to deal with on their own rather than listening to jeering and clapping from the audience.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens in Conversation: The Only Subject is Love
     Reply #58 - March 22, 2010, 09:18 PM

    Are you kidding? this is what makes him cool. Who doesn't love a public intellectual who's too drunk to take a shower !!

    Bingo!
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