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 Topic: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?

 (Read 12847 times)
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  • Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     OP - March 16, 2010, 01:21 PM

    Is it real?
    What is it?
    Is it wrong?
    What is the reasoning behind your answer to the above question?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #1 - March 16, 2010, 01:37 PM

    http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/

    http://www.islamophobia.org/news.php

    Another Question to answer is the difference between Islamophobia  vs Muslim Phobia   and who created/creates such phobias in the minds of those who don't know much about Islam??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #2 - March 16, 2010, 01:42 PM

    Sure it's real. So is hatred of Christianity, Judaism, etc.

    I don't think it's intrinsically wrong to dislike or even hate an ideology, though. I don't like Islam or Christianity myself, by I still try to be balanced towards them and I think that's best.

    The problem is that people think if you hate or dislike a religion then you must be a racist or bigot, as if you only objected to the religion because most of its followers are foreigners or something.

    People seem to make that mistake, and some people positively want to conflate disliking or mocking a religion with disliking or mocking people.

    At the same time though, I think 'Islamophobia' is a b.s. propaganda term that some Muslims use to slander people who criticise their religion and its practices.

    I mean, when was the last time we heard Christians throwing the term 'Christianophobia' at people that say things they don't like?
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #3 - March 16, 2010, 01:44 PM

    Yeah exactly more muslims are now using Islamophobia as a way to deny people from criticizing Islam.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #4 - March 16, 2010, 01:47 PM

    The problem is that people think if you hate or dislike a religion then you must be a racist or bigot, as if you only objected to the religion because most of its followers are foreigners or something.

    People seem to make that mistake, and some people positively want to conflate disliking or mocking a religion with disliking or mocking people.

    Exactly!
    Islamophobia is not the same as Muslim-phobia.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #5 - March 16, 2010, 01:49 PM

    Most Muslims I have met or spoken to have been nice people, but my problem lies with Islam as a belief system, not with the average Muslim, although perhaps my problem lies with people who follow Islam as a literal belief system... but religion of mostly any kind taken literally is a scary thing. I am not phobic of anything associated with Islam or Muslims though, however I will say the burqa scares the living shit out of me. That's not just me though, most people find the idea of a woman covered in black tablecloth with no face as intimidating. That's the only physical thing, on a personal level, that I would say intimidates me, and that's because I associate it with everything opposite of the environment I've grown up around.

    I wouldn't consider myself Islamophobic at all, I'm just critical of Islam in the same way that I'm critical of Christianity, war, organized religion, political parties and political systems, abortion and mostly anything. Being critical of everything is the best way to see the positives, the negatives and where things can be improved.

    One thing that annoys me is the fact that anyone who is critical of Islam is considered some sort of right-wing Islamophobic nuthead. People need to be able to criticize Islam like any other religion or political system or belief is criticized. There needs to be constructive thinking to reform Islam, just like thinking critically is how the Western world reformed itself, how people were given rights, how animals are protected, how freedoms are granted. Islam as a belief system doesn't really allow much leeway for reform or for interpretation or open-mindedness, and that's my sticking point. I would not say I'm phobic of anything though.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #6 - March 16, 2010, 01:50 PM



    I prefer the term anti Muslim bigotry to describe discrimination and prejudice against individual Muslims.

    'Islamophobia' is too often used as a rusty knife to stab anyone who confronts, criticises or dislikes aspects of Islam and also political Islam, Ummah Identity Politics, or doesn't pander enough to Islam or Islamist worldviews.

    So I think its a very troublesome word - not least of all because it presumes and asserts itself to be a horrifying word on a par with 'racist' when in actuality, there is nothing wrong with disliking aspects of Islam or any other religion if your reason and experience and perspective forms you in that way.

    The truth is, many Muslim activists want to ring-fence their religion and identity politics from criticism, and in the last 15 years this word entered the vocabulary, aided and abetted by Leftists journalists and institutions like the Runnymede Trust, and its been used too frequently to slander and attack anyone who says anything that Islamists dislike. The creating of this taboo led directly to Islamic extremism and all its horrors going largely unchallenged for so long - it took the London suicide slaughters to change the scene. The whole 'Islamophobia' hustle sits very well with the impulses of a religion that demands obeisance from non Muslims, and perpetuates the horrors it does towards dissenters and apostates, deeming them worthy of murder, ostracism and persecution.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #7 - March 16, 2010, 01:51 PM

    Quote
    Exactly!
    Islamophobia is not the same as Muslim-phobia.  

    glad to know that dear Kenan ., Now how about the difference between  Hate Islam and Hate Muslims??  and where do you put this tube video??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7d87nDX2t8&feature=player_embedded


    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #8 - March 16, 2010, 01:57 PM

    Where do you put this tube video??


    That's a tough one.  It certainly takes the piss out of the Islam that uses military tactics to install a caliphate. However it does then imply that all Muslims are backward.  Actually I think it implies all "Jihadist" Muslims are backwards which is probably mostly accurate (uneducated people from Pakistan.)  It also implies they fuck goats which in my opinion is more likely to be UNTRUE for Jihadies.

    My gut feeling is that it is an attack on Muslims and not Islam. Only Jihad (extreme) Muslims, but when you are inaccurate with the facts it is very easy for this to be extended to non Jihad; unlike suicide belt jokes which exclude anyone not willing to blow themself up.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #9 - March 16, 2010, 02:04 PM

    @yeezevee

    Hate is a strong word don't you think?

    How about submitting Islam and all other religions to a respectful but for that reason exactly no less ruthless and critical analysis. This would be a way to show true respect for Muslims, to treat them as serous adults who are responsible for their beliefs.

    Muslims = people
    Islam = ideology/religion

    The tailor is a Muslim yet I haven't got a quarrel with his brand of Islam. See Islam essentially is what Muslims make out of it.

    The video you posted is a parody and I wouldn’t intentionally show it to my Muslim friends for a simple reason that they wouldn’t find it funny. And I am not in the business of intentionally upsetting friends.
    But I don't have a problem with the said video per se. Freedom of speech and all that.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #10 - March 16, 2010, 02:08 PM

    What billy said.

    Exactly!
    Islamophobia is not the same as Muslim-phobia.


    Eh...I know where you're coming from, but nomenclature's a funny thing. A word means what people want it to mean. There are those who would define Islamophobia as Muslim-phobia, just as there are those who use homophobic and heterosexist interchangeably, gun rights advocates who use hoplophobia as a political label rather than in its original clinical sense, and we all understand anti-Semitic to mean anti-Jewish, not hate for all Semitic peoples.

    fuck you
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #11 - March 16, 2010, 02:11 PM

    Sure it's real. So is hatred of Christianity, Judaism, etc.


    But a phobia is not really a hatred.

    A phobia suggests a clinical condition. Muslims should think that anyone who doesn't consider Islam the bees knees suffer from a biological condition! It chimes with what they say about the state of the world and how Islam is the normative state of humans. Reject or criticise Islam? The only way it can be explained is that it is some kind of mental condition akin to arachnophobia or whatever.

    Having said that, I think the rise of the word occured after 'homophobia' came into play - who'd have imagined that.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #12 - March 16, 2010, 02:15 PM


    Let me give you an example. Lets say you express the idea that you dislike the burqa, you dislike the inequality of women that Islam inherently carries and asserts, you dislike the attitudes towards non Muslims that Islam promotes. Expressing this could get you called an 'Islamophobe' by many Muslims, Ummah Identity Politics sectarians, and quite probably a fair few non Muslim Leftists, too.

    Its the creation of thought-crime.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #13 - March 16, 2010, 02:15 PM

    But a phobia is not really a hatred.


    It's not a hatred at all, it is an irrational fear.  People can be phobic of snakes but not hate them, and agoraphobics certainly don't "hate" the outside.

    I think Islamophobia is bollocks, it's reassuring to see Google Chrome highlights it for not being a real word as I type Smiley  It is a clever attempt to make any criticism of Islam considered to be bigoted and/or racist.  It is a way of making Islam the "special religion", the only one in the world it is socially unacceptable to mock.

    This isn't a problem for me though, I have social issues Wink

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #14 - March 16, 2010, 02:19 PM




    This is from Butterflies and Wheels:

    ++++++

    Paul Sikander on 'Islamophobia'

    'Islamophobia' is a constructed model designed to protect Islam and Islamic politics from criticism. It has little or nothing to do with protecting individual Muslims from discrimination.

    Until the late 1990's, ethnic minorities in this country were conceived of as being susceptible to discrimination on the basis of immutable human factors. That you are black or Asian is a fact that cannot be altered, and you could face discrimination in British society because of it, prejudice sometimes subtle, sometimes violent and visceral. And so, civil and political society sought to counter this by privileging the dignity of the individual in the face of racism. If a Muslim, a Hindu, or a Sikh was to be called a 'Paki' it was not because of the religion they actively or nominally belonged to. If a West Indian was called a 'nigger' it was not because of any cultural or religious formulation or criticism they were facing. Anti-Semitism when it was expressed, the earlier racism of Europe, that had been present before the post war migration of black and Asian people to the UK, was simultaneously a similar and different mode of prejudice. But crucially, anti-Semitism when expressed and countered was not about defending the theology of Judaism.

    The construction of the concept of 'Islamophobia' began in the aftermath of the Rushdie affair. The impetus for it was to stigmatise an entire range of individuals and opinions, from those who took issue with religious precepts of Islam, to those who questioned certain values of the religion, certain cultural practices recurrent inside the sub-culture of some British Muslim groups, all the way through to those who critically analysed Islamist politics.

    For the first time, 'racism' was not considered to be the active discrimination against individuals because of their ethnic background. Now, 'racism' was asserted to be anything that remotely offended the sensibilities of religious Muslims, including those from within the Muslim community who dissented from a certain line on any range of issues.

    What a victory. To weld together the protection of religion and theo-politics with the whole idea of racism. To no longer privilege the dignity of the individual against racial prejudice, but to privilege the 'dignity' of the religion of Islam, and the politics of Islamism, and providing them with an immunity -- the righteous immunity of protection from 'victimisation'.

    It has been quite a triumph. Not just because of the limits it sets on intellectual rigour, the limits imposed on 'outsiders' (ie: non Muslims) in terms of critical inquiry of Islam and the political stances and dogmas of Islamism, but the Orwellian tint it imposes because of the subjection of language to a bizarre 21st Century kind of Islamic New Speak. More ominously, it is also Kafkaesque because of the horror, guilt and judgment it inspires in those within the fold of Islam who wish to speak freely and subject their religion, and the ideology of theological-politics, to criticism and reform. It has been achieved with startling success, to bring this word and the whole concept behind it to the forefront of public debate and consciousness in Britain. And it is only now that it is being subjected to scrutiny.

    How did we get here? You could write a whole book about it. But trace it back to the Rushdie affair, the collective efforts of Muslim activists and organizations, leveraging the tools of politicized multi-culturalism. It can all be traced back to that big-bang moment in modern British Muslim history, the year 1989 and the aftermath of the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.

    The concept of 'Islamophobia' not only privileges the communal, and privileges a single religion, it also privileges the 'grievances' and 'plight' of Muslims over other minority groups in Britain, and it can be seen as an attempt to bully wider British society into submission to certain religious and theo-political norms. It is the strongest tool available for keeping Muslims in a state of denial about the internal issues that cause self-oppression and social failure and dysfunction relative to other groups in the UK, including an inability to take full advantage of the openness and opportunity in British society that proportionally other ethnic minorities who also face discrimination are able to utilize. It also numbs the mind to the signs and signals that the most insidious forms of extremism make when they arise.

    Much of the trouble we find ourselves in today can be traced back to this self-perpetuating, self-justifying need to create a hygienic space for Islamism, for whatever any loosely connecting individual or group of activists deems mist to be placed inside this hygienic, uncritical space. The continuing efforts of Islamic activists and extremists, including the most violent extremists, have to be seen in this context.


    http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=323




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #15 - March 16, 2010, 02:21 PM

    @Q-Man

    Imho that is a problem for those who use such words without even knowing what they really mean - one can always explain these terms beforehand.

    For example homophobia really means fear of homosexuals, but it is now widely used to refer to any criticism of homosexuality. Many who use the word appear oblivious to the distinction between the fear/hatred of homosexuals on one side and disapproval of homosexual behaviour on the other. Not saying that I have an issue with either, just an example.

    But yeah, it is a loaded word and personally I don't use it except when I am arguing exactly the point I just mentioned.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #16 - March 16, 2010, 02:28 PM

    phobia pho·bi·a (fō'bē-ə)
    n.

    A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

    What billy said.

    Eh...I know where you're coming from, but nomenclature's a funny thing. A word means what people want it to mean. There are those who would define Islamophobia as Muslim-phobia, just as there are those who use homophobic and heterosexist interchangeably, gun rights advocates who use hoplophobia as a political label rather than in its original clinical sense, and we all understand anti-Semitic to mean anti-Jewish, not hate for all Semitic peoples.


    That's exactly my point. Some people try to conflate dislike of Islam with dislike of people and so paint a person who doesn't like Islam or criticises it as being a racist or a bigot.

    You might take homophobia to mean 'dislike of homosexuality' but I don't think there's anything wrong with that, necessarily, any more than it's wrong to dislike a particular ideology.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #17 - March 16, 2010, 02:30 PM

    I think it's real. Some people hate Islam, solely because its Islam. Rashna and Kaiwai on this forum are good examples of that. Every other religion is A-Okay, EXCEPT Islam. And this focused hatred on this one religion extends to how they look at Muslims and consider the people as demonic manifestations of this evil force. To them anything associated with Islam is inherently evil and any achievement of Muslims will automatically be credited to outside influence rather than genuine merit or good intentions.

    That being said, the problem is the word it self and what it's meaning implies. But basically its used to silence and tar critics of Islam and Islamism in a similar way "anti-semitism" is used to silence the critics of Israel.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #18 - March 16, 2010, 02:31 PM

    And I should also say that however we might define what a phobia is, Muslims themselves do tend to think of it as meaning a 'dislike or hatred of Islam/Muslims.'
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #19 - March 16, 2010, 02:38 PM

    I think it's real. Some people hate Islam, solely because its Islam. Rashna and Kaiwai on this forum are good examples of that. Every other religion is A-Okay, EXCEPT Islam. And this focused hatred on this one religion extends to how they look at Muslims and consider the people as demonic manifestations of this evil force. To them anything associated with Islam is inherently evil and any achievement of Muslims will automatically be credited to outside influence rather than genuine merit or good intentions.


    Then call it anti Muslim bigotry if that is what you perceive it to be. Why use a loaded term that is used by Muslims and Islamists to slander and attack anyone who criticises them, (including Muslims who dissent from or reject Islam, who are deemed to be swimming with the 'Islamophobic' sharks)

    Also, believeing that Islam is more worthy of criticism than other religions on a variety of grades and aspects at this moment in time and in many contexts is not nessecarily 'phobic' of anything either. Its quite a commonly held belief.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #20 - March 16, 2010, 02:46 PM

    The Leftists of Europe are gonna get us killed.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #21 - March 16, 2010, 03:04 PM


     Cheesy

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #22 - March 16, 2010, 03:49 PM

    Then call it anti Muslim bigotry if that is what you perceive it to be. Why use a loaded term that is used by Muslims and Islamists to slander and attack anyone who criticises them, (including Muslims who dissent from or reject Islam, who are deemed to be swimming with the 'Islamophobic' sharks)

    Also, believeing that Islam is more worthy of criticism than other religions on a variety of grades and aspects at this moment in time and in many contexts is not nessecarily 'phobic' of anything either. Its quite a commonly held belief.


    Well I'm not even talking about hatred of Muslims. I'm talking about pure and raw hatred of Islam and Islam exclusively. If you believe Islam is an all-consuming demonic force that steals souls and destroys societies then you will naturally, by extension, believe Muslims need to also be "dealt" with. But thats just a result of the original genuine Islamophobia. And no, I don't think Islam is worthy of more criticism than any religion, there I disagree. At the end of the day my concern is not what the Quran says - its how people treat what it says and what they do accordingly. If every Muslim on earth at some point embraces secularism and free thought and all the cultural issues are largely dealt with.. will you still say Islam deserves more criticism? No. I wouldn't. Because religions don't change, people do. Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc are the same as they ever were and they never and have never will change.

    However, if you take an Islamophobic approach you will always consider Muslims agents of evil.. no matter what they do. Muslim can become secularists, human rights believers, and economic and intellectual contributers tommorow, but for people like Rashna they will always be evil and demonic because they are still associated with Islam. For some anything related to Islam can do no good.. that is Islamophobia.


    EDIT:
    And on the record, I am very proud to be a muslim on an ethnic and historical level. I appreciate medieval muslim civilization and all the achievements of that age and of my ancestors. I think it was the greatest civilization that exist up to that point. A true Islamophobe would like me to even disavow that secular achievement and belittle it because it's associated with Islam. I might have issue with Isam as a religion and ethical system. But I do recognize its value as part of a shared experience of a segment of humanity.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #23 - March 16, 2010, 03:53 PM

    There's really no such thing imo because a 'phobia' is defined as having an irrational fear of something, but one could easily argue that there is a lot to fear with Islam because it is a political ideology which means it potentially has implications for the society where it inhabits. I mean i do hate it when people which Iblis mentioned harp on about Islam all the time but most other religions are not as interfering as Islam is.

    However what I dislike about certain people who mock Islam is that they will sometimes go to weird lengths just to make a point, I remember watching a video on youtube where one guy bought a Qur'an just so he could spit in it. When it comes to criticising Islam or any other religion I have my standards lol.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #24 - March 16, 2010, 03:57 PM

    Quote
    I'm talking about pure and raw hatred of Islam and Islam exclusively. If you believe Islam is an all-consuming demonic force that steals souls and destroys societies then you will naturally, by extension, believe Muslims need to also be "dealt" with. But thats just a result of the original genuine Islamophobia. And no, I don't think Islam is worthy of more criticism than any religion, there I disagree.


    OK Iblis, you don't believe Islam is worthy of more criticism that other religions. I happen to disagree with you on that point, but lets leave that to the side for now.

    Are you saying that anyone who believes Islam is more in need of confrontation, criticism and refutation than other belief systems, for a whole variety of reasons, that those people are intrinsically 'Islamophobic'? Sounds like a variant of the old 'special pleading' game that the wielders of the 'Islamophobia' baseball bat make.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #25 - March 16, 2010, 03:58 PM

    I think it was the greatest civilization that exist up to that point.


    If someone disagrees with that, are they Islamophobic  Huh?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #26 - March 16, 2010, 04:01 PM

    I believe Islam warrants more criticism at this point in time. Thats because we live in an age where Muslims and their bullshit are a major issue. If things improve and problem subside and muslim reform their attitudes then why should I bother mentioning rock hadiths or that the prophet molested a 9 year old girl? It's like me going to a bahai and mocking their religion.. why? They don't bother any one us or kill any human beings.. so why should I 'confront' their religion even it it has values I disagree with?

    So should Islam be confronted? Yes, obviously.. but that's because the existing social and political situation of our age demands us to do so in the defense of free speech and freedom of belief and the integrity of secular society. But confronting Islam for the sake of confronting Islam? Fuck that.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #27 - March 16, 2010, 04:02 PM

    If someone disagrees with that, are they Islamophobic  Huh?


    Of course not. Why would you presume I believe that?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #28 - March 16, 2010, 04:03 PM

    And on the record, I am very proud to be a muslim on an ethnic and historical level.

    We're quite different in this respect
    Quote
    And no, I don't think Islam is worthy of more criticism than any religion, there I disagree

    Oh, I dont agree with this too, I think Islam is worse than Buddhism, Chritianity, Hinduism tbh most religions for that matter..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #29 - March 16, 2010, 04:07 PM

    Of course not. Why would you presume I believe that?


    Well, it was said jokingly, I should have used a more ironic smiley. It just read on the page uncomfortably like the absolutist truth claims of supremacy of the gilded age of Islam past like that. Where does the need to make such attributions come from? Ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, China, India, they never really have this kind of advocacy of exceptionalism made for them, they are just part of the tides of the common human civilisation.

     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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