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Theme Changer

 Topic: About your videos

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  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #120 - March 17, 2010, 12:49 PM

    ^ don't forget the emotional / physical damage inflicted upon a 9 year old child


    It no longer matters, she's been dead for over a millenium Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #121 - March 17, 2010, 12:51 PM

    Lightrays, I have always believed that Muhammad should be judged according to his time and context and to describe him as a paedophile is as inappropriate as it is to judge many of our great grandfathers as paedophiles for marrying brides who were under 16 (a quite acceptable practice only a few generations ago.)

    The problem is that it undermines the belief that Muhammad was a role model for all mankind until the end of time.



    There are some problems with this explanation, imo.

    First, there's a huge difference between women under 16 & women under 10.

    Most, 14,15 year olds have reached puberty, infact, even if 13, 14,15 year old girls aren't married off by their parents, they often date boys, have boyfriends out of their own free will. At 13 or a couple of years older, girls are also quite a bit more mature physically than at under 10, at these years, every year makes a significant difference in a girl's physical & emotional maturity.

    Second, even if our great grandfathers did marry women younger than 16, did they marry women with such huge age gaps? Aisha was only 8 years 9 months old, Mo was 54, thats' more than a 45 year age gap, Aisha was born when Muhammad was already in his middle ages, nay, according to the life expectancies of the era, Muhammad was already an old man when his future bride was born.

    When our great grandfathers married 13 or 14 year old brides, they were often 17 or 18 themselves. This isn't a pedophilic practice, at worst its a child marriage.

    Third & most important, how many of our great grandfathers fantasised & had wet dreams about their friend's very little(ie 6 year old daughter) & then decided to act on such fantasies & wet dreams to take advantage of the superior position they hold over their friend's mind to ask for his daughter's hand?

    Muhammad had such a wet dream regarding Aisha before he asked her father for her hand.

    Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 140:
    Narrated ‘Aisha:

    Allah’s Apostle said to me, “You were shown to me twice (in my wet dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, ‘Uncover (her),’ and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), ‘If this is from Allah, then it must happen.’ Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), ‘Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), ‘If this is from Allah, then it must happen.’


    Aisha was Mo's buddy Abu Bakr's little girl & he must have seen her in real life, so that he recognized her in his dream. Muhammad promptly went to her Daddy & asked for her hand. He was initially hesitant as they had a brotherhood pact, which made Aisha Mo's niece, but Mo managed to convince him, again taking advantage of his position as a Prophet, which Abu Bakr believed him to be.

    I know, different times have different morals, but even if 300 years ago, an ancestor of mine had a wet dream about his buddy's less than 10 year old girl when he was very old, then took advantage of his friend's gullibility to convince him that it was his duty to get his little girl married to my ancestor, I'd consider such an ancestor as someone having pedophilic tendencies, not simply living by the values of his time.  yes


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #122 - March 17, 2010, 12:56 PM

    It no longer matters, she's been dead for over a millenium Smiley

    It did matter to her back then though. And it does matter to all those child brides in Yemen and elsewhere who share her fate nowadays.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #123 - March 17, 2010, 01:02 PM

    It did matter to her back then though. And it does matter to all those child brides in Yemen and elsewhere who share her fate nowadays.


    It matters to 9 year old children today, yes, but it no longer matters to that 9 year old child.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #124 - March 17, 2010, 01:04 PM

    It did matter to her back then though. And it does matter to all those child brides in Yemen and elsewhere who share her fate nowadays.


    Not just in Yemen, but in reasonably developed nations like Malaysia as well, which are only 60% Muslim & are located in Islam's easternmost periphery.

    Also, notice, there marriages aren't child marriages, wherein a 10 year old girl is married to a 13-14 year old boy, but middle aged men getting their daughters married to their religious leaders, which has an uncanny resemblance to how Abu Bakr married his little girl Aisha to his religious leader Mo, a millennia & a half back.

    In the world of Islam, from Yemen to Malaysia, time sometimes stands still, all due to Muhammad's unpleasant acts...  whistling2

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #125 - March 17, 2010, 01:20 PM

    lightrays - are you familiar with the euthyphro dilemma?

    certainly, This is more of a dilemma for polytheism and in a sense Socrates used it as a stick to beat the existing order.  I feel he was tending to the Ghazali/Aquinas solution ie that it is not a contradiction in montheism as God is good.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #126 - March 17, 2010, 01:22 PM

    Lightrays, I have always believed that Muhammad should be judged according to his time and context and to describe him as a paedophile is as inappropriate as it is to judge many of our great grandfathers as paedophiles for marrying brides who were under 16 (a quite acceptable practice only a few generations ago.)

    The problem is that it undermines the belief that Muhammad was a role model for all mankind until the end of time.



    Any spiritual figure who is lauded for his space time constrained endeavours remains a role model.  No real problem there.  moral relativism is not unilinear
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #127 - March 17, 2010, 01:26 PM

    I have a fundamental problem with that!
    As I ...such position is intrinsically immoral.



    Muslims consider individual acts moral dependent on time and place.

    Absolute good emmantes from God.

    Which part is it you have a problem with and if one holds both how does that make his action immoral (with proof). 

    I think everyone here accepts the first part. and the second is a question of faith but if one has it it means that there is a criterea to which we compare our individual moral choices...seems simple enough. 
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #128 - March 17, 2010, 01:29 PM

    With regards to worshipping Muhammad:

    The Prophet said "None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind."

    Do you think this is right, Mr. lightrays?


    And of course don't forget.  non of you are true believers until he loves his brother above himself.

    All very simple really....one must love the message brought by Muhammad, one must understand self, is a false distinction one must reach a point through following the muhammadan religion where one subjegates the self to the will of the one and understands one is ones brother.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #129 - March 17, 2010, 01:54 PM

    Hehe.

    I never thought I'd see a Muslim refering to Islam as the 'Muhammadan religion.'
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #130 - March 17, 2010, 01:55 PM

    Muslims consider individual acts moral dependent on time and place.

    Absolute good emmantes from God.

    Which part is it you have a problem with and if one holds both how does that make his action immoral (with proof).  

    I think everyone here accepts the first part. and the second is a question of faith but if one has it it means that there is a criterea to which we compare our individual moral choices...seems simple enough.  

    That's the problem. It's not simple at all.

    "This argument couldn't have been more wrong: the lesson of today's terrorism is that if God exists, then everything, including blowing up thousands of innocent bystanders, is permitted - at least to those who claim to act directly on behalf of God, since, clearly, a direct link to God justifies the violation of any merely human constraints and considerations."

    Rest assured that those guys and girls had absolute faith that they are doing the right thing and that their actions are in fact supported by Allah himself.

    That's the problem with divinely ordained morals based on revelation. You can never know that you in fact being truly moral - because there is no rational proof for it. Only faith.

    The worst bit is that as long as one truly believes and "knows" that one has a direct link to one in fact cannot commit a sin - because morals are derived from God. Killing civilians / shagging a 9 year old is ok because big Al says so.

    This is why paradoxically only an Atheist can in fact be a true believer.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #131 - March 17, 2010, 01:58 PM

    Any spiritual figure who is lauded for his space time constrained endeavours remains a role model.  No real problem there.  moral relativism is not unilinear


    I'm not sure I understand you, Lightrays?

    Are you saying that it is acceptable in today's context for a 53 year-old man to marry a 9 year old girl - as Muhammad did in his context?
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #132 - March 17, 2010, 01:59 PM

    But that's fine if you interpret Islam that way. I don't really care what people want to believe or how they interpret their religion, as long as they don't get the idea of blowing people up and forcing their religion on others.

    lakum deenukum wa liya deen
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #133 - March 17, 2010, 02:00 PM

    people will get it wrong!!!  is that the best you can come up with?  Of course we will
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #134 - March 17, 2010, 02:00 PM

    sorry that was a reply to kenan
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #135 - March 17, 2010, 02:02 PM

    sorry that was a reply to kenan


    Don't worry - it's the missing last-post-quote-button that keeps causing this problem!  finmad
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #136 - March 17, 2010, 02:05 PM

    But that's fine if you interpret Islam that way. I don't really care what people want to believe or how they interpret their religion, as long as they don't get the idea of blowing people up and forcing their religion on others.

    lakum deenukum wa liya deen


    cool well obviously we have found some common ground there.  And by religion I would extend that to other ideologies or beliefs that try to force others into their narrow box.  
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #137 - March 17, 2010, 02:05 PM

    people will get it wrong!!!  is that the best you can come up with?  Of course we will

     015

    That is the gist of it??!!??

    Are you taking the piss?

    Do you think that "only an Atheist can in fact be a true believer" is only a funny phrase?

    It's not just that the outcome of divinely ordained morals is questionable - the very foundations of such morals are flawed. And not only that - such "morals" are intrinsically immoral.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #138 - March 17, 2010, 02:20 PM

    Latest message from the guy in my original post:


    mx399   
    Re: Re: about your videos
    Re: Re: about your videos
    No Man made Islam:
    -Pray 5 times daily (Lunar - so someone is always worshipping God worldwide)
    -Fasting 30 days (Heat or Cold with NO food or water from sunrise to sunset)
    -No alcohol
    -Women cover up head to toe
    -Charity (required not optional)
    -Wudu (before each prayer)
    -Lower your gaze from opposite sex
    -Be kind to others
    -Muhammad never left a photo of himself or ask to be worshipped
    -I can go on, but ask yourself: Why would a MORTAL put these restrictions on himself? WHY?!? Look how much fun it is to dance, have affairs, go to a NUDE beach, take your clothes off, look at women in bikinis, and so forth. Why on earth, in the desert, would this man ask ALL HIS FOLLOWERS to behave in such a modest way? Let me see if you have an answer to this.


    Yep... he's got me there... it must be from God! I will return to Islam immediately - bye everyone.

     grin12
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #139 - March 17, 2010, 02:21 PM

    No nudity? Tell that to Omar Ibn Khattab
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #140 - March 17, 2010, 02:25 PM

    Why on earth, in the desert, would this man ask ALL HIS FOLLOWERS to behave in such a modest way? Let me see if you have an answer to this.[/b]

    Because he was a controlling twat?

    -Women cover up head to toe

    -Lower your gaze from opposite sex

    ... look at women in bikinis, and so forth.

    What if I prefer hairy guys in bikinis?

    is nise!
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #141 - March 17, 2010, 02:29 PM

    Latest message from the guy in my original post:


    mx399   
    Re: Re: about your videos
    Re: Re: about your videos
    No Man made Islam:
    -Pray 5 times daily (Lunar - so someone is always worshipping God worldwide)
    -Fasting 30 days (Heat or Cold with NO food or water from sunrise to sunset)
    -No alcohol
    -Women cover up head to toe
    -Charity (required not optional)
    -Wudu (before each prayer)
    -Lower your gaze from opposite sex
    -Be kind to others
    -Muhammad never left a photo of himself or ask to be worshipped
    -I can go on, but ask yourself: Why would a MORTAL put these restrictions on himself? WHY?!? Look how much fun it is to dance, have affairs, go to a NUDE beach, take your clothes off, look at women in bikinis, and so forth. Why on earth, in the desert, would this man ask ALL HIS FOLLOWERS to behave in such a modest way? Let me see if you have an answer to this.


    Yep... he's got me there... it must be from God! I will return to Islam immediately - bye everyone.

     grin12



    a little cack handed but he is basically saying choose a path of virtue in your life...why do you feel a need to mock him
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #142 - March 17, 2010, 02:31 PM

    Because that crap he mentioned has got nothing whatsoever to do with virtue - both on superficial and fundamental level.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #143 - March 17, 2010, 02:34 PM

    Latest message from the guy in my original post:
    Yep... he's got me there... it must be from God! I will return to Islam immediately - bye everyone.
     grin12


    Rephrased he is saying the following are practices dear to muslims.  They are certainly noble virtues.  

    Regular meditation to nourish the soul.A symbolic unity to remind us we are all one.
    Disciplining our base desires (food etc)
    Avoiding intoxicants
    Modesty in public
    Spending of your wealth for those less fortunate.

    Cant really see why you would wish to mock them
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #144 - March 17, 2010, 02:36 PM

    Because that crap he mentioned has got nothing whatsoever to do with virtue - both on superficial and fundamental level.


    He mentioned the following

    Regular meditation to nourish the soul.A symbolic unity to remind us we are all one.
    Disciplining our base desires (food etc)
    Avoiding intoxicants
    Modesty in public
    Spending of your wealth for those less fortunate.

    All crap and no virtue in any of them dear Kenan you are an embittered soul
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #145 - March 17, 2010, 02:36 PM

    Surely, and I don't know much about this Allah fellow, but shouldn't Allah punish the person for his so-called sin rather than the person taking it upon themselves to kill the sinner?

    I was registered on a Christian forum and one thing that they do differently (generally speaking) is that they have a general consensus of "man has free will, and only God can judge him", but in Islam it seems as if every Muslim is given the right to not only judge but kill according to their own religious convictions.

  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #146 - March 17, 2010, 02:41 PM

    you are right unechance you "don't know much" about God.  Islam is clear on free will and no coercion.  At the same time like Christian and other societies laws exist to regulate human interaction.  canon and sharia law have many similarities as does talmudic. 
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #147 - March 17, 2010, 02:43 PM


     in Islam it seems as if every Muslim is given the right to not only judge but kill according to their own religious convictions.



    Hmm
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #148 - March 17, 2010, 02:45 PM

    I'm not sure I understand you, Lightrays?

    Are you saying that it is acceptable in today's context for a 53 year-old man to marry a 9 year old girl - as Muhammad did in his context?


    Lightrays, did you see this question?
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #149 - March 17, 2010, 02:47 PM

    a little cack handed but he is basically saying choose a path of virtue in your life...why do you feel a need to mock him


    No he's offering as proof it is from God.
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