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Theme Changer

 Topic: About your videos

 (Read 57609 times)
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  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #30 - March 17, 2010, 01:02 AM

    people are people with all our warts.  its more where the good takes you that makes the person. And in that respect I would concur one needs to question ones motives.

    would you say if a muslims motive to do a good act is to go to heaven, does that make it a selfless act or a selfish one?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #31 - March 17, 2010, 01:10 AM

    heaven is achieved through fana.  It is that realm, through purification (good deeds) a noble spirit achieves (along with many of us lesser souls).  If one does a good act one does it for ones own soul.  Its silly to say it is to get to heaven except perhaps to enliven the dimmest of spirits.  Again the Quran states "If any one does good it is for the benefit of his soul"
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #32 - March 17, 2010, 01:11 AM

    you seem to miss the point that selfishness is meanigless to an enlightened muslim.  All is one.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #33 - March 17, 2010, 01:16 AM

    So then... what's the point of all the Qur'an's promises of eternal rewards for the goodly Muslims if it's not to appeal to their self-interest and desires?
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #34 - March 17, 2010, 01:18 AM

    you might as well say why did God create good and evil! but you know the answer you just dont agree with the prescription
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #35 - March 17, 2010, 01:21 AM

    So then... what's the point of all the Qur'an's promises if it's not to appeal to their self-interest and desires?


    seriously....you must see the ridiculousness of your statement.  What is appealing to" self interest and desires" is far more earthy and obvious.  Religion raises ones head out of the trough and reminds us there is a higher and nobler purpose for man and that path is selflessness and moderation 
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #36 - March 17, 2010, 01:30 AM

    seriously....you must see the ridiculousness of your statement.  What is appealing to" self interest and desires" is far more earthy and obvious.  Religion raises ones head out of the trough and reminds us there is a higher and nobler purpose for man and that path is selflessness and moderation 


    Haha!

    Like the moderation and selflessness of the Islamic paradise with its servants, concubines, limitless food and wine, etc.?

    Muhammad may have encouraged and taught people to do things in moderation (although it's interesting that he didn't seem to show moderation himself when it came to women), but you have to admit that the Islamic paradise is the complete opposite of an ascetic and purely spiritual one.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #37 - March 17, 2010, 01:32 AM

    the islamic precept to speak to people according to their intellect comes to mind talking to you.  But better to leave it at that.  One makes ones heaven and one makes ones hell by ones actions may be the best way to put it.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #38 - March 17, 2010, 01:37 AM

    a restricted mentality may require a literlistic interpretation and islam is a faith for all reasons.  I find it curious how many of you ex muslims appear to emanate from the same spring as the literalist narrow minded muslims.  Water finds its own course and all that appears to seperate you is your philosophies, your mentalities are kindred.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #39 - March 17, 2010, 01:39 AM

    However religion is for the quick and the dead.  However ones mental faculties interpret ones actions and provide rationale for them ultimately as we know actions are judged by intentions and intentions are formed in the heart.  Purify your heart with good actions and even if you are not very intelligent or wise you will be blessed
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #40 - March 17, 2010, 01:50 AM

    a restricted mentality may require a literlistic interpretation and islam is a faith for all reasons.  I find it curious how many of you ex muslims appear to emanate from the same spring as the literalist narrow minded muslims.  Water finds its own course and all that appears to seperate you is your philosophies, your mentalities are kindred.


    If I take the Qur'an metaphorically even I can believe it. The problem is that it's not really a purely metaphorical book. A lot of the things in it are definitely literal, like the hell-fire and concubines in paradise.

    Do you really believe all that the Qur'an says or do you just rationalize the things that you find are more difficult to believe and simply say, 'it's metaphorical'?
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #41 - March 17, 2010, 01:55 AM

    please dear boy,  I can run with you as far as saying "a lot of things in it are definitely literal"  but the example you give is "like hell fire"  If it had been the five prayers or rules of zakat which you offered as the literal parts then that would make sense.  When you chose the most metaphoric features (which God tells in the same Quran are unimaginable to our minds and therefore presented in metaphoric language) this is just silly of you.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #42 - March 17, 2010, 01:55 AM

    we wont make any headway with sloppy arguments
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #43 - March 17, 2010, 08:01 AM

    a restricted mentality may require a literlistic interpretation and islam is a faith for all reasons.  I find it curious how many of you ex muslims appear to emanate from the same spring as the literalist narrow minded muslims.  Water finds its own course and all that appears to seperate you is your philosophies, your mentalities are kindred.


    That's because we don't like to make shit up.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #44 - March 17, 2010, 08:02 AM

    However religion is for the quick and the dead.  However ones mental faculties interpret ones actions and provide rationale for them ultimately as we know actions are judged by intentions and intentions are formed in the heart.  Purify your heart with good actions and even if you are not very intelligent or wise you will be blessed


    Cool. Then I guess we don't need religion.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #45 - March 17, 2010, 08:03 AM

    please dear boy,  I can run with you as far as saying "a lot of things in it are definitely literal"  but the example you give is "like hell fire"  If it had been the five prayers or rules of zakat which you offered as the literal parts then that would make sense.  When you chose the most metaphoric features (which God tells in the same Quran are unimaginable to our minds and therefore presented in metaphoric language) this is just silly of you.


    Bullshit. Hell is very much real. So is Heaven. You are reading your own interpretation where it does not belong. Acstetic muslim with arrogance.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #46 - March 17, 2010, 09:31 AM

    Sorry Black Dog when you say "Hell is very much real . So is heaven"  do you mean you believe hell is very much real and so is heaven?
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #47 - March 17, 2010, 09:39 AM

    I don't but the Quran portrays it as such. It's not metaphorical, its a literal place. With real heat, fire and pain. For hell. In heaven, it is real joy, real cool drink of water and real shade.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #48 - March 17, 2010, 09:41 AM

    Religion raises ones head out of the trough and reminds us there is a higher and nobler purpose for man and that path is selflessness and moderation 

    Oh really?
    It's exactly the opposite!

    I'll just repost; and pls if you want to comment on it then read it carefully first!

    As far as morals go consider this:

    1. Doing good because of Jannah. Motivation: reward; this is immoral
    2. Doing good because of Jahannam. Motivation: fear; this is immoral too

    3. Doing good for the sake of it. Motivation: because it is the right thing to do; this is the only true moral stance

    Theists do what they perceive as good deeds in order to fulfil God's will and to earn salvation; atheists do them simply because it is the right thing to do. Is this also not our most elementary experience of morality? When I do a good deed, I do so not with an eye toward gaining God's favour; I do it because if I did not, I could not look at myself in the mirror. A moral deed is by definition its own reward.

    The only way to show true respect for God (and hence be trully moral) is to act morally while ignoring god's existence. Which obviously renders God meaningless.

    But belief in God is central to the theists. Do good for the sake of God. Problem is their vision of god is that of a petty pathological narcissist and psychotic tyrant who require continuous ass kissing otherwise he gets all grumpy. In case you have read Quran you will now exactly what I mean.

    FOR centuries, we have been told that without religion we are no more than egotistic animals fighting for our share, our only morality that of a pack of wolves; only religion, it is said, can elevate us to a higher spiritual level. Today, when religion is emerging as the wellspring of murderous violence around the world, assurances that Christian or Muslim or Hindu fundamentalists are only abusing and perverting the noble spiritual messages of their creeds ring increasingly hollow. What about restoring the dignity of atheism, one of Europe's greatest legacies and perhaps our only chance for peace?

    More than a century ago, in "The Brothers Karamazov" and other works, Dostoyevsky warned against the dangers of godless moral nihilism, arguing in essence that if God doesn't exist, then everything is permitted. The French philosopher Andr? Glucksmann even applied Dostoyevsky's critique of godless nihilism to 9/11, as the title of his book, "Dostoyevsky in Manhattan," suggests.

    This argument couldn't have been more wrong: the lesson of today's terrorism is that if God exists, then everything, including blowing up thousands of innocent bystanders, is permitted - at least to those who claim to act directly on behalf of God, since, clearly, a direct link to God justifies the violation of any merely human constraints and considerations. In short, fundamentalists have become no different than the "godless" Stalinist Communists, to whom everything was permitted since they perceived themselves as direct instruments of their divinity, the Historical Necessity of Progress Toward Communism.

    During the Seventh Crusade, led by St. Louis, Yves le Breton reported how he once encountered an old woman who wandered down the street with a dish full of fire in her right hand and a bowl full of water in her left hand. Asked why she carried the two bowls, she answered that with the fire she would burn up Paradise until nothing remained of it, and with the water she would put out the fires of Hell until nothing remained of them: "Because I want no one to do good in order to receive the reward of Paradise, or from fear of Hell; but solely out of love for God." Today, this properly Christian ethical stance survives mostly in atheism.

    Fundamentalists do what they perceive as good deeds in order to fulfil God's will and to earn salvation; atheists do them simply because it is the right thing to do. Is this also not our most elementary experience of morality? When I do a good deed, I do so not with an eye toward gaining God's favour; I do it because if I did not, I could not look at myself in the mirror. A moral deed is by definition its own reward. David Hume, a believer, made this point in a very poignant way, when he wrote that the only way to show true respect for God is to act morally while ignoring God's existence.


    *excerpt from "Defenders of Faith" by Slavoj Zizek


  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #49 - March 17, 2010, 09:43 AM

    why do you say real, when the quran clearly states it is something we cannot know...clearly that means a degree of metaphor is employed to convey meanings beyond our ken.  That is non-controversial and the only sect of muslims who fight against that are the ultra literalist (generally narrow minded) types.  Hence why I say it appears ex mulims (on here at least) are kindred spirits to salafis in so far as you can't cope with complex concepts and ideas.  Much as you might like to force Islam to conform to your bigoted perceptions it doesnt
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #50 - March 17, 2010, 09:46 AM


    3. Doing good for the sake of it. Motivation: because it is the right thing to do; this is the only true moral stance




    Glad you agree that is the stance of the Quran...
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #51 - March 17, 2010, 09:48 AM

    good purifes the soul and is good in its own right as the quran states. 
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #52 - March 17, 2010, 09:52 AM

    Glad you agree that is the stance of the Quran...

    Bullshit!

    You are not functionally illiterate are you?

    That is the atheist's moral stance - the theist moral stance is the exact opposite.

    Pls carefully read the whole thing I wrote again.  In fact if you are dyslexic I apologise in advance.

    Or simply stop trolling.


  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #53 - March 17, 2010, 09:53 AM

    ultimately the reward of good is good (Heaven) and the reward of evil is evil (Hell).  That is non-controversial, where metaphor of description is employed to convey the bliss of good we differ in so far as you want it to be a physical state I see it more as guiding us through metaphor to comprehend a state of spiritual bliss.  Its an acedemic debate.  But were one to embark on it only the ignorant would continually ignore the reality of verses in the quran informing us, despite metaphoric descriptions, that heaven or hell are in the non-physical realm and therefore beyond descriptions confined to time/space restrictions.
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #54 - March 17, 2010, 09:56 AM

    Bullshit!

    You are not functionally illiterate are you?

    That is the atheist's moral stance - the theist moral stance is the exact opposite.

    Pls carefully read the whole thing I wrote again.  In fact if you are dyslexic I apologise in advance.

    Or simply stop trolling.





    You quoted christians who recognise that good is its own reward, I could cite examples in the mishnah of similar understanding and of course we have quoted the quran saying good is its own reward.  You can keep hopping up and down if you like...
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #55 - March 17, 2010, 09:57 AM

    You quoted christians who recognise that good is its own reward ...

    And that is the gist of it?

    Have you read what I have written at all?

    You really are incredible!

    Yo guys!

    Kope is back!
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #56 - March 17, 2010, 10:03 AM

    A short version:

    Allah is morality in other words morality and ethics are defined through Allah; most certainly not by men. Similarly those who claim to act directly on behalf of Allah can get away with anything, including blowing up thousands of innocent bystanders, since clearly, a direct link to Allah justifies the violation of any merely human constraints and considerations. Therefore somebody sanctioned by Allah cannot commit evil even when performing the most gruesome act imaginable.
    Nice, eh?
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #57 - March 17, 2010, 10:04 AM

    I think the fact that the original commentor framed almost all the actions that make Muslims "good" in such negative terms


    And I can say quite conclusively that the majority of men who look at my wife's breasts as we walk down the road are Muslim men who should be lowering their gazes, a fact made much worse when they are walking with a woman who is wearing a niqaab.

    Now if they were allowed to look at women maybe the novelty would wear off and they wouldn't be so obsessed?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #58 - March 17, 2010, 10:06 AM

    I read your piece.  I think our difference lies in so far as you wish to say if you do good because it is Good there is no need for God (he is meaningless as you say).  But that is simply due to your faulty comprehension.  The quran guides us to recognise Good is good for our own soul....why?  because good is our fitra or primordial state.  Through prayer we "remember that state (dhikr) and achieve union with the oneness of all reality (God).  Saying we don't need God to recognise him(ie do good) doesnt make sense unless of course you havent understood what the spiritual journey of the individual soul is.  If for you it is simply a father like figure who will reward or punish and therefore i need to be scared or feel love then yes you will struggle to comprehend and you sit at the lower end of understanding... sorry  Some people need that and only reach that level
  • Re: About your videos
     Reply #59 - March 17, 2010, 10:08 AM

    (Worshipping Muhammad) seriously....you must see the ridiculousness of your statement.  


    If I were talking to you man to man and said to you "Will you please tell me about Muhammad" what would you feel?  Would you get a sudden rush of emotion? Would you feel love and adoration?  I can say that every practising Muslim who has ever told me about Muhammad has shown this response, their face lights up, their eyes soften, their voices soften, quite frankly they love him.

    Now recently a messenger from DHL came and delivered a really nice Google phone to my house. Although I was most pleased to receive the phone I do not project those happy feelings onto the messenger who delivered it to my door because that would be illogical.

    So, how would YOU feel?  Be honest, the Quran says you cannot lie Smiley


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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