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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
  • Yes (even if it means lightly, with miswak etc...) - 28 (100%)
  • No, it means something else, (i.e. Leave them alone, strike a similitude etc...) - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 28

 Topic: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?

 (Read 25837 times)
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  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #30 - March 18, 2010, 09:03 PM
    I'm guessing that's something that happened in kuwait?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #31 - March 18, 2010, 09:04 PM
    Quote from: _truth_ on March 18, 2010, 08:54 PM
    Interesting point
     But however how does one reinterpret verses of the quran that Muhammad already specifically laid out. Perhaps these new interpretations come from an modern day influences?


    There is no doubt in my mind they are influenced by modern notions of what is acceptable and not, but they wouldn't admit to it - they would say others just misinterpreted the true meaning.  Roll Eyes

    But I'll leave those Muslims who follow such interpretations to explain it for themselves. I know we have least one here on this forum - The Tailor.
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #32 - March 18, 2010, 09:08 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 18, 2010, 09:04 PM
    There is no doubt in my mind they are influenced by modern notions of what is acceptable and not, but they wouldn't admit to it - they would say others just misinterpreted the true meaning.  Roll Eyes




    +1 i agree completely
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #33 - March 18, 2010, 09:08 PM
    Quote from: Luthiel on March 18, 2010, 09:01 PM
    One of my salafi friends was a second wife. Her co-wife had been disobeying her husband and he finally got fed up and he actually sat down with my friend (the second wife) to discuss it. It was very matter-of-fact, as she tells it, and he calmly stated that he would need to beat her, with no more emotion than if he had decided to get a hair cut. She (my friend) agreed that a beating was called for, and he planned out when and where and how, and told the poor first wife that she would receive a beating and the reason for it. I think he ended up using a belt and striking her 3 times on the arm.


    You know it is this that I find so obscene. Of course I condemn someone who hits his wife in anger - but I can see how human beings could do that. But if this verse is supposed to be followed correctly then one must be calm, cool and collected about it. I find the very thought sickening.
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #34 - March 18, 2010, 09:12 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 18, 2010, 09:03 PM
    I'm guessing that's something that happened in kuwait?

    Yes, in Kuwait. The husband and first wife are both Kuwaiti, and my friend is an American convert. Btw, she has been divorced from him for a few years now (for completely different reasons), so the first wife has him all to herself Roll Eyes
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #35 - March 18, 2010, 09:16 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 18, 2010, 09:08 PM
    You know it is this that I find so obscene. Of course I condemn someone who hits his wife in anger - but I can see how human beings could do that. But if this verse is supposed to be followed correctly then one must be calm, cool and collected about it. I find the very thought sickening.


    I agree, that is the worst part about it. How can you just calmly decide to beat someone whom you supposedly love?
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #36 - March 18, 2010, 09:17 PM
    And then even calculate how many strikes the "offense" deserves...  wacko
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #37 - March 18, 2010, 09:19 PM
    even more appalling, why would any woman agree to this?
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #38 - March 18, 2010, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: Luthiel on March 18, 2010, 09:17 PM
    And then even calculate how many strikes the "offense" deserves...  wacko


    And what "offenses" require a beating is a discussion in itself - traditionally it could be things like not beautifying herself for her husband - or going out without his permission.

    Modern Muslims will now scream foul and say Oh no it's for far more serious 'crimes'. I had a street discussion with one Muslim who insisted it was for adultery and he would not listen when I tried to explain that adultery is a quite separate crime in Shari'ah Law - with a different Hadd (and it is definitely not a couple of taps with the Miswak!)
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #39 - March 18, 2010, 09:49 PM
    Quote from: _truth_ on March 18, 2010, 09:19 PM
    even more appalling, why would any woman agree to this?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #40 - March 18, 2010, 09:54 PM
    I watched a sermon given by Hamza Yusuf in which he claimed that the verb dharaba was used in a purely metaphorical way in that verse.

    It must be a source of serious cognitive dissonance for these people when the infallible word of God is so consistently and radically misunderstood by Muslims.
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #41 - March 18, 2010, 09:59 PM
    Here's Zakir the clown Naiks explanation.  He believes in the beat "lightly" lie.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1FYvtjH5uM
    .
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #42 - March 18, 2010, 10:32 PM
    lol iblis

    Shahid please no dr naik. That guy is just not possible to bear anymore. He uses pro naik audiences and steps on people while they are trying to refute him, the guy is just a total moron brainwashing people
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #43 - March 18, 2010, 11:53 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 18, 2010, 08:11 PM
    Abdurahman Green 'ee say YES!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7cYbCgRJgs


    This analogy is fail.  So the government has a police force and the husband is analogous?  What if the police is abusing someone? Using this analogously then is the wife allowed to beat the husband if he misbehaves?  If someone says "the roles are different" please explain how one person for virtue of having a penis is allowed to prevent "evil" while another is not?  Even the dumbest person can see a double standard there. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #44 - March 19, 2010, 12:04 AM
    Quote from: deusvult on March 18, 2010, 11:53 PM
    Even the dumbest person can see a double standard there. 


    Not if they're intoxicated with Allah Juice.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #45 - March 19, 2010, 12:06 AM
    you're on form tonight
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #46 - March 19, 2010, 12:10 AM
    Quote from: deusvult on March 18, 2010, 11:53 PM
    This analogy is fail.  So the government has a police force and the husband is analogous?  What if the police is abusing someone? Using this analogously then is the wife allowed to beat the husband if he misbehaves?  If someone says "the roles are different" please explain how one person for virtue of having a penis is allowed to prevent "evil" while another is not?  Even the dumbest person can see a double standard there. 


    His analogies are always crap - but he's big in Japan Malaysia - so he doesn't care.
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #47 - March 19, 2010, 12:44 AM
    I voted  grin12 sorry
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #48 - March 19, 2010, 09:08 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 19, 2010, 12:10 AM
    His analogies are always crap - but he's big in Japan Malaysia - so he doesn't care.


    LOL
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #49 - March 19, 2010, 10:04 AM
    I voted on the poll too b4 reading it was 4 muslims only. Sorry  Embarrassed
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #50 - March 19, 2010, 10:14 AM
    Whoops so did I.  Huh?
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #51 - March 19, 2010, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 18, 2010, 07:24 PM
    This was possibly the first topic that made me wonder whether the Qur'an was actually from a human source rather than a divine one.

    Today I see more and more Muslims saying it doesn't mean hit - so I was wondering what Muslims here think?


    I dont think we've gotten any Muslims here willing to say that daraba means beat. I can't recall anyone getting hounded and crucified for saying "its only meant to be with a miswak", so it may not have happened (might have to go thru the fun exkimdonesia thread).

    We get all that weird ones, so they come up with their own personal interpretations of the verse. Most deniers seem to jump on the progressive bandwagon- either the quran is progressive or we have to intepret it as such today becasue we dont live in the 7th century  Roll Eyes.
    People (at least in the west) are progressive, but are so regardless of religion. Most people would agree today that wife-beating and slavery are bad, but as Muslims have such a strong attachment to the quran, they try to make shit taste better by adding lightly or say it means something else.

    I think, if 4 34 was not in the quran, Muslims who presently try to justify it would find the notion of wife beating abhorrent. They would wonder how you could say such a discriminatory thing when its not there, and that the quran is ecumenical, just, etc. Roll Eyes They would probably take pride in the fact that there was no wife-beating in it, another reason to believe in the quran instead of the bible or torah. But simply because it is there, they have to reconcile it with what they believe or want to believe.
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #52 - March 19, 2010, 08:03 PM
    Here is one of the alternative interpretations of this verse:

    http://www.free-minds.org/beating

    ...If we look at the subject matter, it is of a woman who cannot stand her man and therefore has rebelled from him...As with the example of the man being the one rebelling, there are steps to `calm things down` and to bring harmony into the marriage...Beating a woman if she can't stand her man and has rebelled against him will only make her hate him more (not exactly a logical or practical solution to the problem).

    Obviously now that the subject has been better understood, it is the second word "Idribuhun" which needs examination in light of the Quran.

    "Have you not seen how God puts forth (Daraba) the example of a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and its branches in the sky." (The Message 14:24)

    "For the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, they cannot go forth (Darban) in the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features, they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it." (2:273)

    Daraba (in its natural state) means: `to put forth`

    The only reason this word can sometimes mean hit/strike is because a person is `putting forth` his hand when striking someone (see 8:12, 8:50, 47:27).

    "And if you could only see as the Angels take those who have rejected, they "Yadriboon" strike their faces and their backs: `Taste the punishment of the blazing Fire!`" (8:50)

    Looking back at 4:34, we see that the context of the verse (solving the wife's rejection of her husband) leads us to choose the natural meaning of "Darab" which is: `to put forth` and not the alternative meaning of `strike`.

    "The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall 1) advise them, and 2) abandon them in the bedchamber, and 3) "Idribuhun" let them go forth; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great." (4:34)

    The approach of choosing the `best` understanding and/or meaning is both logical and, more importantly, in-line with the guidance for study we are given by God:

    "The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the BEST of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence." (39:18)

    What we have now is a comprehensive list of steps in order for a man to deal with his wife who wants to desert her husband and can no longer stand to be with him...

    Talk about it. This is obviously the simplest and healthiest method since it opens the communication channel between both parties.

    Abstain from sharing the same bed. This is the 2nd approach the man is advised to use if they are unable to reconcile their problem as the lack of sexual contact may lead to the wife to cool down as intimate contact may simply inflame the situation if she is unable to stand her husband.

    Separate from each other. The 3rd and final line of advice is designed as a 'cooling-off' period and is mainly designed to help the wife re-think and examine the situation closely without the physical presence of her husband.

    The logic and clarity of the above steps are a far cry from the wife beating and bashing claims which this article started off examining....

    As for those who have been promoting the evil inherited from their forefathers while claiming falsely it was from God...

    "And if they commit evil acts, they Say: `We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it.` Say: `God does not order evil! Do you say about God what you do not know?` Say: `My Lord orders justice, and that you be devoted at every temple, and that you call on Him, while being faithful to Him in the system; as He initiated you, so you will return.` A group He has guided and a group have deserved misguidance; that is because they have taken the devils as allies besides God; and they think they are guided!" (7:28-30)
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #53 - March 19, 2010, 08:07 PM
    Yeah, thats the usual one. "Separate" in different form. Let them go forth or go away from them. But does daraba mean "put forth" in its natural state? Also, I dont trust Free Minds. They're very liberal with the text.
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #54 - March 19, 2010, 08:25 PM
    It's bullshit. Daraba can mean go forth/strike up a similitude etc... but it needs some qualification and a preposition to mean that.

    ppl who say this stuff are ignorant of Arabic.

    But where there's a will there's a way. "God wouldn't say you can hit your wife! It means something else - for certain!"
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #55 - March 19, 2010, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: Angel54 on March 19, 2010, 08:01 PM
    I think, if 4 34 was not in the quran, Muslims who presently try to justify it would find the notion of wife beating abhorrent.


    Agreed.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #56 - March 19, 2010, 08:38 PM
    Edip Yuksel knows what "True" Islam is and he says it means:

    'striking them out' from your house is the best solution (send them away - NOT hit them).

    http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/beating_women_(P1179).html


  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #57 - March 19, 2010, 08:43 PM
    No it doesn't mean beat - what's wrong with you guys!

    "The strongest argument for why the Arabic word does not mean “to beat” but rather means “to go away” is because interpreting the Arabic word as “to beat” contradicts another verse in the Quran... In 2:231 the Quran says as translated in the Sublime Quran: “When you divorce wives, and they (f) are about to reach their (f) term, then hold them (f) back honorably or set them (f) free honorably; and hold them (f) not back by injuring them so that you commit aggression, and whoever commits that, then indeed he does wrong to himself; and take not the Signs of God to yourselves in mockery; remember the divine blessing of God on you and what He sent forth to you of the Book and wisdom; He admonishes you with it; and be Godfearing of God and know that God is knowing of everything.” All English translations translate this verse in a similar way.
    That is, a husband may not hold back his wife from divorce by hurting, harming, injuring her or using force against her. Reading this verse as if for the first time, it suddenly occurred to the translator that what the Quran says in 2:231 contradicts the way 4:34 has been interpreted over the centuries by everyone except the blessed Prophet. "

    http://www.sublimequran.org/
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #58 - March 19, 2010, 11:34 PM
    Here's Hamza Yusufs explanation.  He takes a veeeeeeeeery long time to get to the point.  Watch the video from 15:20 mins onwards.

    When begins to talk about the verse 4:34 he says.....

    "First of all, before you can even understand the Quran you have to give 20 years of your life to study".  Roll Eyes

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDIAN4I0wBA
    .
  • Re: To All Muslims Here: Does God Allow Hitting One's Wife?
     Reply #59 - March 19, 2010, 11:38 PM
    Quote
    "First of all, before you can even understand the Quran you have to give 20 years of your life to study".


    I love it when they say that. Because they also say, 'Islam is so beautiful because its so simple and easy to understand and follow'

    So, its either the bestest, mostest greatest wonderfullest because unlike those other complex religions that are false its so easy to comprehend through the simple instruction book of Quran (and that's why BILLIONS of people are reverting to ISLAM every WEEK!)

    or

    Its so terribly awfully context filled and complex that you need to have studied it for 20 years before judging it definitively.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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