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Theme Changer

 Topic: Come on now!

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  • Come on now!
     OP - March 19, 2010, 04:58 AM
    You mean to tel me this was accidental?

    No matter how hard I try, I cannot get myself to believe that random mutations even over millions of years can produce a pattern as precise as this..





    (Owl Butterfly)
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #1 - March 19, 2010, 05:07 AM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimicry#Batesian
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #2 - March 19, 2010, 08:34 AM
    Quote from: liberated on March 19, 2010, 04:58 AM
    You mean to tel me this was accidental?


    No, it was not "accidental".

    I remember an experiment with fish.  A scientist put the same fish in different tanks.

    1: Tanks with large pebbles + no predators.
    2: Tanks with small pebbles + no predators.
    3: Tanks with large pebbles + predators.
    4: Tanks with small pebbles + predators.

    In the tanks with no predators the skin of the fish slowly evolved to be more prominent.  The males which were noticed the most got to breed the most.  In the tanks with predators the prominent fish got eaten more often.  Over time the fish in the tanks with large pebbles ended up with large spots, and the ones in the tanks with small pebbles evolved small spots.

    It's random mutation that generates the changes, but what you must remember is that LOTS of animals die, far more than are born!  The ones which survive have a slight edge over the others and then pass that edge on to their children.  But then their children are slightly mutated, lots of those die, so the ones with the slight edge again survive to reproduce.  This cycle means that the pattern is guided by the environment, the closer you are to something useful the more you breed.

    Another experiment with wolves has been running for decades in Siberia.  Only the most docile were permitted to breed.  Over time not only did they become very tame but their features became more puppy-like, their ears floppy, and their coats started to produce different patterns making them look like collie dogs.

    If you are not familiar with how selection works watch my video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCQoyJAiMoo

    Hopefully that will make it easier to understand.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #3 - March 19, 2010, 09:18 AM
    Typical creationist mistake: ignoring the effects of millions of years of lethal and non-random selection.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #4 - March 19, 2010, 10:46 AM
    Is it so necessary to spam the forums with new threads about how little you understand evolution?
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #5 - March 19, 2010, 10:59 AM
    Did you even watch what 9berry posted?
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #6 - March 19, 2010, 11:07 AM
    Your right BD - even your own programming showed what can happen in 117 generations, leave alone billions of years.  I watched what nineberry posted -pay particular attention to the way these animations adapted to get the ball without any outside influence in order to get the ball. Each time the other party was unsuccessful, it adaped until it was.  However it had to keep up, as its competitor was getting better & better.  Love to see what the final model of each one of them turned out to be.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #7 - March 19, 2010, 04:45 PM
    How can random mutations over no matter how many generations create a pattern as precise as the eye?

    Give me a break and use your rational side for a bit...

    Random patterns of colors all over the butterfly are understandable, but its simply inconceivable for a pattern like the eye to form via random mutations and natural selection. You mean to tell me that a mutation caused a quarter of an eye to be formed, and further mutations caused another quarter, and then another until the eye was formed as it looks now?

    *sigh*.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #8 - March 19, 2010, 04:46 PM
    Quote from: liberated on March 19, 2010, 04:45 PM
    Give me a break and use your rational side for a bit...


     Lmao
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #9 - March 19, 2010, 04:52 PM
    It is true.

    It seems to me that many of the atheists here are as religious about their beliefs as muslims are about theres.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #10 - March 19, 2010, 04:55 PM
    You for example, Liberated.  The natural world has things in it that you can't grasp the explanation for, therefore science must be wrong.  Very rational.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #11 - March 19, 2010, 04:56 PM
    And it seems to me you're just a deceitful creationist troll pretender. Now go make your claims to real scientists and biologists in this field.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #12 - March 19, 2010, 05:00 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on March 19, 2010, 10:46 AM
    Is it so necessary to spam the forums with new threads about how little you understand evolution?

    No offense but that sounds exactly like a muslim saying 'do you have to keep making threads about how little you understand about the quran'.

    Nothing is above questioning, quran, bible, and unguided evolution / evolution by random mutations.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #13 - March 19, 2010, 05:02 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 19, 2010, 04:55 PM
    You for example, Liberated.  The natural world has things in it that you can't grasp the explanation for, therefore science must be wrong.  Very rational.

    I'm not saying that 'science is wrong', I'm saying that this particular mechanism: random mutations + natural selection, cannot on its own create precise patterns like an owl's eyes, the smiley face on the back of the spider, etc.

    It would take more faith to believe in that process at the moment than it would to believe that something (aliens, god, unknown natural forces, etc) guide evolution.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #14 - March 19, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Ok then. Shut up and present to us evidence of guided evolution. What do you think made that pattern? Why have you come across this "guided" reality and yet no actual scientists (with things like PhDs and tenures) have posited the same ideas?

    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #15 - March 19, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 19, 2010, 04:56 PM
    And it seems to me you're just a deceitful creationist troll pretender. Now go make your claims to real scientists and biologists in this field.

    And this is exactly like muslims saying 'you were a jew from the start and never a muslim in the first place' when they can't comprehend the idea that someone might leave islam.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #16 - March 19, 2010, 05:05 PM
    Grin

    Why are you so obsessed with constantly bringing up what Muslims believe and mirroring that onto your obsession with trying to cling on to god.

    Just admit it, you love Allah, and you just can't let go.  Kiss
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #17 - March 19, 2010, 05:05 PM
    Quote
    I'm not saying that 'science is wrong', I'm saying that this particular mechanism: random mutations + natural selection, cannot on its own create precise patterns like an owl's eyes, the smiley face on the back of the spider, etc.


    Go and read up on the subject, paying particular attention to sexual selection and genetic drift, then get back to us.  You're hardly in a position to pronounce on whether evolution can or cannot produce something when you clearly don't understand it to begin with.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #18 - March 19, 2010, 05:06 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 19, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Ok then. Shut up and present to us evidence of guided evolution. What do you think made that pattern? Why have you come across this "guided" reality and yet no actual scientists (with things like PhDs and tenures) have posited the same ideas?

    What makes you think they haven't? Many scientists believe in a god, and Ken Miller is a roman catholic who believes in a creator too, so what basis do you have for saying that no scientists accept guided evolution?

    Science is by definition about the natural world so they can't put in stuff about guided evolution in Science.

    What is your evidence that randomness can form a pattern like the eye with the precise colors?
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #19 - March 19, 2010, 05:06 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 19, 2010, 05:05 PM
    Go and read up on the subject, paying particular attention to sexual selection and genetic drift, then get back to us.  You're hardly in a position to pronounce on whether evolution can or cannot produce something when you clearly don't understand it to begin with.

    Its funny of you to assume that I haven't read about it, I've practically been reading about this topic for weeks. You can ask me anything about it and I should be able to answer it.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #20 - March 19, 2010, 05:07 PM
    Quote
    What is your evidence that randomness can form a pattern like the eye with the precise colors?


    Its not random.  How many times do you have to be told that before you finally stop repeating that fallacy?  Roll Eyes
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #21 - March 19, 2010, 05:08 PM
    Quote from: liberated on March 19, 2010, 05:06 PM
    Its funny of you to assume that I haven't read about it, I've practically been reading about this topic for weeks. You can ask me anything about it and I should be able to answer it.


    Then you shouldn't need to ask about pretty patterns on butterflies - it should be obvious to you how sexual selection can produce such an effect, not to mention many more complex and awesome effects than that.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #22 - March 19, 2010, 05:10 PM
    Quote from: liberated on March 19, 2010, 05:06 PM
    What makes you think they haven't? Many scientists believe in a god, and Ken Miller is a roman catholic who believes in a creator too, so what basis do you have for saying that no scientists accept guided evolution?


    Does Ken Miller believe that an intelligent outside force contributed towards any aspect of biological evolution on earth?

    Ken Miller is a Roman Catholic, but a very loose one and has never once stated anything outside of evolution by natural selection.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #23 - March 19, 2010, 05:11 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 19, 2010, 05:08 PM
    Then you shouldn't need to ask about pretty patterns on butterflies - it should be obvious to you how sexual selection can produce such an effect, not to mention many more complex and awesome effects than that.

    Well, it isn't obvious to me, that's why I posted this thread. Sexual selection can result in very beautiful, colorful patterns, I understand and agree with that. But the probabilities of a pattern as precise as the eye being formed without any guidance, even over millions of years, does not go down my throat. The skeptic inside me starts ringing a very loud bell whenever I think about it.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #24 - March 19, 2010, 05:14 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 19, 2010, 05:10 PM
    Does Ken Miller believe that an intelligent outside force contributed towards any aspect of biological evolution on earth?

    Ken Miller is a Roman Catholic, but a very loose one and has never once stated anything outside of evolution by natural selection.


    Some adherents of theistic evolution hold that the deity both designed the universe and has a continuing part in its development, and feel that a term they favour has been hijacked by the proponents of the viewpoint called "Intelligent design".[citation needed] A number of notable proponent of theistic evolution, including Kenneth R. Miller, John Haught, Michael Dowd, and Francis Collins, are critics of Intelligent design.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution#Relationship_to_intelligent_design
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #25 - March 19, 2010, 05:15 PM
    Its not that difficult, Liberated.  The girls like pretty patterns, and the predators avoid butterflies with some patterns more than others.  And plus, its not even that precise, the stripes on a wasp have more precision in them.

    You're just erecting a huge argument from incredulity, the proper answer to which is - go and educate yourself.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #26 - March 19, 2010, 05:17 PM
    Quote from: liberated on March 19, 2010, 05:14 PM
    Some adherents of theistic evolution hold that the deity both designed the universe and has a continuing part in its development, and feel that a term they favour has been hijacked by the proponents of the viewpoint called "Intelligent design".[citation needed] A number of notable proponent of theistic evolution, including Kenneth R. Miller, John Haught, Michael Dowd, and Francis Collins, are critics of Intelligent design.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution#Relationship_to_intelligent_design


    You never answered my question:

    Quote
    Does Ken Miller believe that an intelligent outside force contributed towards any aspect of biological evolution on earth?


    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #27 - March 19, 2010, 05:21 PM
    Since he believes in theistic evolution, obviously he does.

    Here's another quote:

    Kenneth R. Miller, professor of biology at Brown University, author of Finding Darwin's God (Cliff Street Books, 1999), in which he states his belief in God and argues that "evolution is the key to understanding God" (Dr. Miller has also called himself "an orthodox Catholic and an orthodox Darwinist" in the 2001 PBS special "Evolution")

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution#Evolutionary_biologists_who_were_also_theists
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #28 - March 19, 2010, 05:22 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on March 19, 2010, 05:15 PM
    Its not that difficult, Liberated.  The girls like pretty patterns, and the predators avoid butterflies with some patterns more than others.  And plus, its not even that precise, the stripes on a wasp have more precision in them.

    Like I said, believing that will require more faith than believing there was some guiding force behind evolution.

    I just cannot swallow that a pattern like the eye can emerge through random mutations + natural selection.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #29 - March 19, 2010, 05:23 PM
    Obviously? Give me a break. I want a quote of him stating clearly - or any reputable scientist for that matter - that at some point in evolution outside intelligence or mysterious 'force' contributed to certain traits.

    Now.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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