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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islame re-reads the Quran

 (Read 91736 times)
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  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #90 - October 30, 2010, 08:34 PM

    Quote
    Quran 004.023 Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and your sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers, and your foster-sisters, and your mothers-in-law, and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in -

    but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters) - and the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins.

     

    Just come across the above verse again, and trying to understand what the highlighted part means? Is Islam giving license to Muslims to marry the wives of their biological (as opposed to adopted) children too?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #91 - October 30, 2010, 08:54 PM

    Wonderful commentary Islame! clap



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #92 - October 31, 2010, 08:46 PM

    Just come across the above verse again, and trying to understand what the highlighted part means? Is Islam giving license to Muslims to marry the wives of their biological (as opposed to adopted) children too?


    Looks like it.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #93 - December 03, 2010, 04:16 AM

    What religion did Abraham belong to?

    003.067 Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who
    had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.



     Cheesy

    So Jews are idolators?
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #94 - December 03, 2010, 04:24 AM

    Cheers for the advice Mo.  I'll have to ask my mum to give me the engagement ring back.

    004.023 Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters,
    and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and
    your sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers, and your foster-sisters, and your
    mothers-in-law, and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your
    women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is
    no sin for you (to marry their daughters) - and the wives of your sons who (spring)
    from your own loins.



    Son, can I please share your wife? Just for a while, please? Just a little bit. I want to taste her. Mild penetration only. 

    Cheesy
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #95 - December 03, 2010, 04:42 AM

    Fatima: oh my husband died, whose gonna take care of me and raise my kids?

    Fatima to children: my dears, I'm going to marry grand daddy, from now onwards, your father's father is your foster father

    Fatima to ex-husband's father at night: oh my, like father like son. I see where he got his love making skills from.

     Cheesy

    Hot dayum, the Quran is some horny stuff.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izxCBfRXPEw
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #96 - December 03, 2010, 04:46 AM

    Cheesy

    So Jews are idolators?

    Jews are by the most paranoid people when it comes to "idolatry". They wont even prostrate on a stone flooring. They have to use a mat.


    I think Abraham predated orthodox Judaism by a considerable amount of time - the idolatry reference is to the local community in which he was raised that had a pantheon of gods. The story of Abraham taking an axe to the gods and cutting them down is quite a famous story in the canon of Islam.

    Besides which, even if it were the case that Jews were around in Abraham's time it is not difficult to see that they can be classified as idolators - after all, Islam has a very strict ruling on idolatry and placing the importance of a mat ahead of the act of worship is indulging in shirk-e-asghar (weak idolatry).

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #97 - December 03, 2010, 06:14 AM

    I think Abraham predated orthodox Judaism by a considerable amount of time - the idolatry reference is to the local community in which he was raised that had a pantheon of gods.


    That's present in the Old Testament itself I believe and is a story reiterated by Jews and Christians.

    Infact if I'm not wrong, its that very story by which Jews define their religion, Judaism, as being the first that is Monotheistic. It's that "ah ha!" moment of Monotheism according to them. And that which defines and distinguishes Monotheism from other forms of theism.

    Quote
    The story of Abraham taking an axe to the gods and cutting them down is quite a famous story in the canon of Islam.


    Yes but those weren't quite "Jews". The Jewish religion, Judaism, is the oldest of all surviving Monotheistic religions. And Abraham is the first proponent and establisher of it. So whatever pre-Abrahamic Judaism that we are talking about, isn't Judaism as we know it. And thats irrelevant. That's like talking about exclusive fire worship centred around Agni when Hinduism is wayyy much more than that.

    Quote
    Besides which, even if it were the case that Jews were around in Abraham's time it is not difficult to see that they can be classified as idolators - after all, Islam has a very strict ruling on idolatry and placing the importance of a mat ahead of the act of worship is indulging in shirk-e-asghar (weak idolatry).


    Well Jews do this deliberately to avoid idolatry. Its more of a prior-to-worship act. So that they are sure that they are not committing idolatry when they are worshipping.

    In any case,... going by what Islam defines as idolatry. How would this be an act idolatry? What would be the explanation for denouncing this? And who came up with this?

    If we we are to believe in Islam, a Prophet is suppposed to be a "perfect Monotheist", free from the "stain" of idolatry. So the Jews of Abraham's time following what he said, could not possibly be idolators.

    This is nothing short of a tactic by Islam to claim the Prophets religions preceeding it as its own.

    Jews speak of Abraham and Moses as minions of Yah. Jewish religion rests upon them. So to say that Abraham was not a Jew is bollocks.

    Strategically speaking, it makes sense to discredit Judaism/Jews as idolatrous because Muhammad claimed to have revelations. There is no reason or need for him from the Jewish perspective. Jews would require him only if Judaism was defective and thus Muhammad being the person to accept and follow in order to reclaim flawless Monotheism i.e converting to Islam.

    Oh and also "the placing of importance" of anything ahead of worship or puja in Hinduism as per Brahminical orthodoxy is also considered to be "improper" and they, Hindus, are idolators and polytheists. Cheesy

    And what about the verse posted by Islame about not doing certain things("forbidden" stuff) when you are to worship? Isn't that also a kind of restriction against worship? Since that defines worship and is a "putting ahead before".

    What about the washing of body parts before engaging in worship? Isn't that as well?

    *edit* fixing my terrible grammar and punctuation out
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #98 - December 03, 2010, 06:43 AM

    Quote
    Yes but those weren't quite "Jews". The Jewish religion, Judaism, is the oldest of all surviving Monotheistic religions. And Abraham is the first proponent and establisher of it. So whatever pre-Abrahamic Judaism that we are talking about, isn't Judaism as we know it. And thats irrelevant. That's like talking about exclusive fire worship centred around Agni when Hinduism is wayyy much more than that.


    Abraham didn't exist, the Jews were never taken into captivity and the books of Moses were written after long after the fact. Though scholastic study it has been shown that the Jews were incially polytheistic and gradually transformed to a monotheistic religion. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #99 - December 03, 2010, 07:21 AM

    Abraham didn't exist, the Jews were never taken into captivity and the books of Moses were written after long after the fact. Though scholastic study it has been shown that the Jews were incially polytheistic and gradually transformed to a monotheistic religion.


    I know that...

    heres an excellent vid regarding Yah's not so exclusive past

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhbseuQ4Yg

    but 1400 years ago still Jewish literature held pretty much the same beliefs as today from which the Quran is based of from.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #100 - December 03, 2010, 07:51 AM

    except the whole basis of the Abrahamic religion is flawed.  Abraham can't be shown to even exist and there is plenty of evidence that the circumstances listed in the Quran and Torah were contrived.  The Jews ( or Muslims according to the Quran) weren't brought into captivity and there was no Moses.  The whole foundation of Judiesm is flawed and of course the Quran builds falsity on falsity.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #101 - December 03, 2010, 07:55 AM

    It's the like The Koran says "lies upon lies" which sums up my first marriage.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #102 - December 03, 2010, 09:18 AM

    IsLame brilliant work.....  Afro

    I suggest you modify the OP and paste all your notes there. It should be helpful to new comers. Also it should be pinned. It is an excellent thread for an excellent work.

    My remarks: 

    1) Point number 27, you forgot to put in quotes.....

    2) you missed verse 16:66 ----> Does not allah know that milk is the genius work of mammary glands? Thinks it comes from poo and blood?

    More remarks to come soon.

    ...
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #103 - December 03, 2010, 04:08 PM

    IsLame brilliant work.....  Afro

    I suggest you modify the OP and paste all your notes there. It should be helpful to new comers. Also it should be pinned. It is an excellent thread for an excellent work.

    My remarks: 

    1) Point number 27, you forgot to put in quotes.....

    2) you missed verse 16:66 ----> Does not allah know that milk is the genius work of mammary glands? Thinks it comes from poo and blood?

    More remarks to come soon.

    Thanks, Ive done as you suggest & also added it to my blog's appendix  in my sig

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #104 - December 03, 2010, 05:43 PM

    2) you missed verse 16:66 ----> Does not allah know that milk is the genius work of mammary glands? Thinks it comes from poo and blood?

    016.066
    YUSUFALI: And verily in cattle (too) will ye find an instructive sign. From what is within their bodies between excretions and blood, We produce, for your drink, milk, pure and agreeable to those who drink it.
    PICKTHAL: And lo! in the cattle there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies, from betwixt the refuse and the blood, pure milk palatable to the drinkers.
    SHAKIR: And most surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle; We give you to drink of what is in their bellies-- from betwixt the feces and the blood-- pure milk, easy and agreeable to swallow for those who drink.

     Cheesy Cheesy

    Seriously, easy to swallow?Huh? Ask me or any other lactose intolerant.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #105 - December 03, 2010, 07:28 PM

    Peace Islame,

    I appreciate the points raised by your re-reading. I could give a Sufi understanding of any of the verses you highlighted, as you can probably imagine (or perhaps know already if you've read my Ramadan tafsir) -- if you think it might be fun, pick one of them at random and I'll give it to you.

    On the other hand, that might not be a useful exercise. It might be more interesting to keep it ex-Muslim, and treat the verses as essentially human psychology (or psychopathology): and, rather than sticking to the literalist understanding of Muhammed as a straightforward manipulative (but self-aware) cult leader, and instead consider him as mad and "psychoanalyse" the text itself. You know, the way Freud did for Moses in Torah. Was it you or Kenan who was doing a Freudian/Zizekian reading of this stuff earlier in the year? Would be interesting to follow Zizek's Hajarian reading here ...

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #106 - December 03, 2010, 10:35 PM

    Was it you or Kenan who was doing a Freudian/Zizekian reading of this stuff earlier in the year? Would be interesting to follow Zizek's Hajarian reading here ...

    TT

    wasnt me, but sounds like something Kenan/z10 might do

    Quote
    I appreciate the points raised by your re-reading. I could give a Sufi understanding of any of the verses you highlighted, as you can probably imagine (or perhaps know already if you've read my Ramadan tafsir) -- if you think it might be fun, pick one of them at random and I'll give it to you.

    On the other hand, that might not be a useful exercise. It might be more interesting to keep it ex-Muslim, and treat the verses as essentially human psychology (or psychopathology): and, rather than sticking to the literalist understanding of Muhammed as a straightforward manipulative (but self-aware) cult leader, and instead consider him as mad and "psychoanalyse" the text itself. You know, the way Freud did for Moses in Torah.

    sure thing - should be interesting -   if ive listed quite a few, so quick one line responses will suffice as long as we can get a handle on your position and perhaps go into detail on further questioning?  Leave it up to you anyway..

    Quote
    47)   Perhaps Allah is serving tea & coffee hell (make that 1 sugar please)
    Quran 037.067 And afterward, lo! thereupon they have a drink of boiling water

    Quote
    59)   It’s funny how the word “me” interchanges in the Quran to sometimes mean Muhammad e.g.
    Quran 003.183 Messengers came unto you before me with miracles
    and other times (like below) to mean Allah.  I wonder if the Prophet sometimes got a bit confused during his sermons as to who was supposedly the author of these words..

     

    Quote
    56)   Here is needy Allah again, wanting attention over children and wanting us to see them as a temptation rather than young beings who need time, attention & guidance.
    Quran 063.009 O ye who believe! Let not your wealth nor your children distract you from remembrance of Allah. Those who do so, they are the losers.

     

    Quote
    53)   The meaning of our lives according to our creator
    Quran 051.056 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

     

    Quote
    45)   What about assexual reproductive species living in the animal/plant world, in which instance male/female pairs are not required?
    Quran 036.036 Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!

     

    Quote
    44)   Does this mean it is a sin for a woman to talk to any other man?
    Quran 033.055 It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves.

     

    Quote
    39)   100 whips for all adulterers

    Quran 024.002 The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes
    Yet, as expected by those who think the Quran is manmade, the prophets wives get double this punishment if they got involved with other men:


    Quote
    2)   Sounds like predestination to me

    Quran 003.145 No soul can ever die except by Allah's leave and at a term appointed.

     

    Quote
    19)   The Quranic challenge and so called proof of its divine origins – i.e. bring another Sura like it -

    Quran 010.038 Or say they: He hath invented it ? Say: Then bring a Sura like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.
    Here is the same challenge adjusted to 10 Suras now
    Quran 011.013 Or they say: He hath invented it. Say: Then bring ten Suras, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful! Two questions:
    Why would an omniscient Allah change his mind?
    Secondly why was it adjusted from 1 to 10 - is it possible to meet the challenge of one Sura?  If so, does that negate the earlier verse or is it a mistake by an all-seeing all-knowing creator?


    Quote
    20)   Aren’t Muslims supposed to pray 5 times a day ?

    Quran 011.114 Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful.

     

    Quote
    4)   Allah (or more likely Muhammad as he was illiterate) has got their mathematics muddled up because the sums just don’t add up.  Grab a calculator & do it yourself. So again who wrote the Quran, Allah or Muhammad?

    Quran 004.011 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male  the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. 004.012 And unto you belongeth a half of that which your wives leave, if they have no child; but if they have a child then unto you the fourth of that which they leave, after any legacy they may have bequeathed, or debt (they ma y have contracted, hath  been paid). And unto them belongeth the fourth of that which ye leave if ye have no child, but if ye have a child then the eighth of that which ye leave, after any legacy ye may have bequeathed, or debt (ye may have contracted, hath been paid). And if  a man or a woman have a distant heir (having left neither parent nor child), and he (or she) have a brother o r a sister (only on the mother's side) then to each of them twain (the brother and the sister) the sixth, and if they be more than two, then they shall be sharers in  the third, after any legacy that may have been bequeathed or debt (contracted) not injuring (the heirs by willing away more than a third of the heritage)

     

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  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #107 - December 03, 2010, 10:50 PM

    Admins/Mods please pin this thread...  thnkyu

    ...
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #108 - December 07, 2010, 10:24 AM

    sure thing - should be interesting -   if ive listed quite a few, so quick one line responses will suffice as long as we can get a handle on your position and perhaps go into detail on further questioning?  Leave it up to you anyway..


    Okay, one line responses to these, as a morning distraction.


    47)   Perhaps Allah is serving tea & coffee hell (make that 1 sugar please)
    Quran 037.067 And afterward, lo! thereupon they have a drink of boiling water


    You omitted the interesting bit before this -- which is that the boiling water is related to the food of the "tree of hellfire, that is as if it has heads of devils" -- the food -- including the water -- filling the bellies of those there.

    In Sufism, we equate human life with the archetype of a particular tree -- the "tree of life" found in lots of cultures. It consists of a number of components -- psychological tendencies, so to speak -- that need to be balanced. Each component is intrinsically good. One of these branches of the tree, for example, is human rahma, human love. It's a very good thing. It is associated with the element of water (waters of mercy) and is primal to our existence (because our essence is that "water"). Another branch of that tree is shariah, human constraint, laws, sciences, reason. That branch is associated with the element of fire. It's also a good thing normally, because without reason, constraints and so on, we wouldn't have science or society.

    When these aspects are unbalanced (for example, when someone fixates on a particular form of idolatry, such as fascism or religious fundamentalism), then that "tree of life" becomes inverted -- and then we have the mirror image of the tree.

    So each component of the tree is inverted as well -- specifically, that branch of love is inverted and becomes idolatry, fascism, unhelpful desire. Human love, for example, turned from being good into, for example, the adoration of Hitler in Nazi times, adoration of a cruel social shariah etc.

    At the point when the tree is inverted, the water of human love and the fire of human judgement come together in a pure negative way, inverted from goodness -- and we have psychosis -- that is, boiling water. Fire and water: adoration of the shariah instead of (what the Sufi tree grows toward) adoration of Love.

    I could say more about the use of "bellies" that are filled in this verse. The arabic root is BTN, which has the connotation of womb and, significantly, interiority. Let's leave that for the moment.

    59)   It’s funny how the word “me” interchanges in the Quran to sometimes mean Muhammad e.g.
    Quran 003.183 Messengers came unto you before me with miracles
    and other times (like below) to mean Allah.  I wonder if the Prophet sometimes got a bit confused during his sermons as to who was supposedly the author of these words..


    I don't believe Prophecy is/was confused about this -- not at least the last time I spoke to him -- but the "confusion" of pronouns is sort of the key to understanding Qur'an. It is an approximation to say that God is within everyone -- but the Sufi does seek out exactly this state of confusion you mention -- where we get tangled up in God's Love, so we don't know where we end and where Hu begins.

    At any rate, when you read the Qur'an, as a Sufi, you read God reading through you. And, most importantly, the "you" of the Qur'an is not Muhammed the man (so you must ignore the tafsir in the translations) -- it is always "you" the reader, put in Muhammed's place. It's your revelation, just like those find-you-fate second person gamebooks. (This is the point of my own 2nd person gamebook -- available at fernmind.com with all proceeds going to establishing a Tailorite Ashram in Turkestan.)

    That is, the Qur'an is a 2nd person gamebook, with you playing the lead character, but where God often speaks through you, inducing a state of Divine confusion. (This is why 5 percenter Muslims use the surname "Allah" -- and why in hip hop slang friends address each other as "G" -- "G" for God. Their system is similar to Sufism in its embrace of the confusion. However, in my school, there are higher states beyond that confusion, though the confusion is embraced and necessary. It's called fana.)

    56)   Here is needy Allah again, wanting attention over children and wanting us to see them as a temptation rather than young beings who need time, attention & guidance.
    Quran 063.009 O ye who believe! Let not your wealth nor your children distract you from remembrance of Allah. Those who do so, they are the losers.


    This is about reincarnation -- specifically the Islamic analog of the Hindu-Buddhist notion of karma. "Children" are what your soul becomes/evolves into. We believe the soul splits into other souls -- the way in which it does this -- is answered by all the inheritance laws.

    That might sound a bit nuts, but reincarnation is believed to occur at all levels of existence, from microcosmic to macrocosmic. So, for example, this sentence you are reading right now is a bit of my "soul" that happens to be "reincarnated" as a child-sentence from the previous sentences I have written here and elsewhere. So all cause-and-effect is understood to be continual cycles of reincarnation.

    Generally the Qur'an informs us reincarnation -- children, descendents etc -- is a blessing and part of the "test" of the (tree of) life. But the Sufi, like the Buddhist, aims to ultimately transcend those cycles of "descent". Hence the verse.

    It's got nothing to do with real children -- apart from the particular sense that children are part of this karmic cycle (but everything is).

    53)   The meaning of our lives according to our creator
    Quran 051.056 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.


    Sufic tafsir would render the intended meaning of this line as

    "Love created the psychological drives and your soul-fragments  only that they might love the Love."

    45)   What about assexual reproductive species living in the animal/plant world, in which instance male/female pairs are not required?
    Quran 036.036 Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!


    This is a good translation -- because the Arabic is "pairs" but with the connotation of mating, spouses and so on.

    Approximately these "sexual pairs" do not refer so much to animal/plant species -- but rather to a cosmic sexuality that underlies all perception/language/creation.

    Think of the notion of the yin-yang principle that is meant to underly the cosmos in Taoism -- that's kind of what is meant here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

    Or, alternatively, the Shiva-Shakti principle of Tantric Buddhism/Hinduism:
    http://www.sacredsource.com/images/ss.jpg

    In the Judaic tradition (from which all Islam originates and Sufism continues to preserve): this masculine/feminine duality is not equated with Allah, but rather with two aspects of Allah's Love to creation --  loving bestowal (father) and loving reception (mother). God gives/is present and God takes away/is felt as absent. We see everything as ultimately a "family resemblance" in combination of these two aspects.

    This is the meaning of the hadith where Muhammed was proclaimed a prophet by a Rabbi when he repeated the Talmudic expression that a child (aspect of creation) resembles its father if the father ejaculates first but the mother if she ejaculates first in sexual congress Wink



    44)   Does this mean it is a sin for a woman to talk to any other man?
    Quran 033.055 It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves.


    This is about how knowledge is transmitted -- it is a kind of cosmology of meditation -- to grasp it requires us to first work out where the "wives" are inside us. Running out of time so I will leave it there for the moment Tongue

    39)   100 whips for all adulterers
    Quran 024.002 The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes
    Yet, as expected by those who think the Quran is manmade, the prophets wives get double this punishment if they got involved with other men:


    Adultery is infidelity to God. The number in Arabic numerology is very significant. I have a blog piece on this verse explaining it in detail -- particularly the need for four witnesses (they relate to the four levels of the soul that has been expounded upon by Judaic and Sufic sources).

    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/lashings-and-the-four-witnesses/


    2)   Sounds like predestination to me
    Quran 003.145 No soul can ever die except by Allah's leave and at a term appointed.

     
    True -- but as you mentioned, the Qur'an itself confuses who is Hu -- so -- to be consistent with that -- what happens to predestination in that light? Cheesy

    19)   The Quranic challenge and so called proof of its divine origins – i.e. bring another Sura like it -


    There is a great psychosexual gamebook available at fernmind.com -- all proceeds go to establishing a Tantric Tailorite Ashram in Turkestan.  whistling2

    20)   Aren’t Muslims supposed to pray 5 times a day ?

    Quran 011.114 Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful.

     
    I don't see an incompatibility.


    4)   Allah (or more likely Muhammad as he was illiterate) has got their mathematics muddled up because the sums just don’t add up.  Grab a calculator & do it yourself. So again who wrote the Quran, Allah or Muhammad?
    Quran 004.011 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male  the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds
    ....


    Okay, inheritance is basically about transmission of knowledge/soul/reincarnation. Its too complex for a one liner, my blog has a Ramadan Reading on this verse.

    But regarding dodgy maths -- it is a common trope in Torah, Talmud, Zohar as well as Qur'an and hadeeth.

    Dodgy maths is always deliberate. Check out Idris Shah's tafsir to understand why the maths in holy books is often so dodgy: at 3:38 here ...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgOgUZ57pQs&feature=player_profilepage

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #109 - December 07, 2010, 10:35 AM

    cheers, can you answer this apparent contradiction too.....



    19)   The Quranic challenge and so called proof of its divine origins – i.e. bring another Sura like it -

    Quote
    Quran 010.038 Or say they: He hath invented it ? Say: Then bring a Sura like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.

     

    Here is the same challenge adjusted to 10 Suras now

    Quote
    Quran 011.013 Or they say: He hath invented it. Say: Then bring ten Suras, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!

     
    Two questions:

    Why would an omniscient Allah change his mind?
    Secondly why was it adjusted from 1 to 10 - is it possible to meet the challenge of one Sura?  If so, does that negate the earlier verse or is it a mistake by an all-seeing all-knowing creator?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #110 - December 07, 2010, 11:03 AM

     didn't realize this thread existed .
    might take my hand at reading the Quran from cover to cover in a couple of weeks . gotta get me some post its  !!

    "Tomorrow is the today you were worried about yesterday" Unknown
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #111 - December 07, 2010, 11:18 AM

    Goodness Islame!  Standing ovation!  Have only gotten through part of it, and
    I saw a couple of things.  With ALL due respect kind sir.

    5)   Did you just -->saying<-- it’s ok to forcibly marry a women if she is ‘guilty of flagrant lewdness’.

    15)   Not only idolaters go to hell, but Christians believing in the trinity -
    (Mo himself called Isa the "Messaiah")  lulz

    17)   These are the Lot versus (so-called anti-homosexual ones)- In any case this is wrong, as
    homosexuality in animals is a well documented and known phenomenon, particularly in Bonobos --->are<---
    closest known relative, where males also give each other oral sex to promote societal bonding!


    Quran 007.080  Rained a rain upon them? LMAOOOOO
    I thought it "rained fire and brimstone"


    24)   So Allah does punish in this life -->to<--

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #112 - December 07, 2010, 11:46 AM

    more and more I am convinced Aisha had been slipping him
    arsenic or magic shrooms LMAOOOOOOOOOOO   Cheesy Cheesy

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #113 - December 07, 2010, 12:41 PM

    Hi Tailor

    How do you understand the concept of Haraam?

    Quran 2:173
    "He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swineflesh, and that which hath been immolated to (the name of) any other than God. But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! God is Forgiving, Merciful."

    Thanks.




     Wink
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #114 - December 07, 2010, 01:14 PM

    cheers, can you answer this apparent contradiction too.....

    Why would an omniscient Allah change his mind?

    Secondly why was it adjusted from 1 to 10 - is it possible to meet the challenge of one Sura?  If so, does that negate the earlier verse or is it a mistake by an all-seeing all-knowing creator?


    This is a tough one to explain briefly ...

    1. Regarding the "invention" ...

    ... some people I have heard regard this as not a challenge, but a command -- to try to "invent" just like Muhammed did, to try to be like him, up to the point of seeing Angels/God, establishing a perfect "City" of Submission (Medina of the Mind) etc.

    While somewhat plausible, I actually do not take that position completely -- it's a bit simplified for me.

    Instead I read "invention" as "fabrication" and "lies" (so somewhat more traditional here).

    But then I also consider everything I just wrote about God above (including everything I could say about the Qur'an, which has a "Real" existence beyond the paper version you are reading) as a kind of "invention"/"fabrication". Ditto for anything anyone could possibly say about God -- it's all a kind of invention. Everything's a hijab, including the paper Qur'an you are perceiving, veiling us from the actual, "Real" words of God. Veiling us from the actual "Real" Tablet.

    Approximately, there is a "Real" eternal Qur'an and the Arabic Qur'an you are reading is an "earthly" projection of that into our veiled, reality of invention/fabrication. Nevertheless, it is a projection, rather than a completely "free" invention. Like a shadow or the outline of a body under a hijab.

    2. The process of invention begins the moment we are reading the Qur'an. And here the challenge is to remain dynamic, rather than fixed in our readings -- to understand that the laws of the Real Qur'an itself -- are active, fluid movements, not fixed, static words on the page.

    And this is why we have one verse challenging us with fabricating "1" surah and another saying "10". The difference between "1" and "10" is how a particular active movement is perceived by us/Muhammed in our/his revelation. A movement from 1 to 10 or 10 to 1.

    10, in Judaic cosmology, being the full number of the tree of life (I mentioned above) and 1 being a kind of tawhid: 7 for the levels of the miraj and 3 for the mother/father principle and their origin. But tawhid is achieved only through growing/balancing your psychology, through growing through the tree of life. So 1 will become 10 and 10 will become 1.

    I can try to make it clearer but this is a pretty minute point -- my favourite kinds of course, as the blessings for me are always in the infinite complexity of the details.

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #115 - December 07, 2010, 01:32 PM



    On the authority of IsLame,  z10 narrated that Hassan once saw the Tailor speaking to the CEMB, within the Anti-Mosque, about the nature of revelation. He then paused asked them "Would you like to know who amongst you is walking in Jannah while still walking upon this earth?". They replied in the affirmative, each hoping the Tailor would say it was them. He pointed to Kenan, who was walking outside the Anti-Mosque, carrying a copy of "The Rainbow Connection" (available at fernmind.com). And he laughed until you could see his back molars.

    How do you understand the concept of Haraam?

    Quran 2:173
    "He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swineflesh, and that which hath been immolated to (the name of) any other than God. But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! God is Forgiving, Merciful."


    Here are some notes on this precise verse from my blog ... They are a bit terse, I can expound on whatever you wish Smiley


    Verses (2:168-174) concern dietary laws (and the surah later follows these up with injunctions concerning fasting):

    O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth [that is] lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy. (2:168)


    People often take the following verse purely literally, in the sense of a biological interpretation of what “dead animals”, “blood” and “swine” signify:

    He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (2:173)


    It is a mistake to consider the dietary law verses in this way as it overlooks a very obvious point: the very next verse is specified after the injunction on diet to make us question our very assumptions regarding what constitutes “consumption”.

    Indeed, they who conceal what Allah has sent down of the Book and exchange it for a small price – those consume not into their bellies except the Fire. And Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. And they will have a painful punishment. (2:174)


    Note that "bellies" here has the Arabic root word BTN, which has the connotation of interiority, concealment.

    So "consumption" is, in the context of this part of the surah, exactly either concealing (for a price) or revealing what has been revealed of the Book. To eat swine flesh is to consume Fire, is to conceal the revelation of the Book including (self-referentially) any attempt to conceal what the true nature of swine flesh is by delimiting it to just a kind of physical meat! Swine flesh runs through all systems, not just physical. Wherever part of us wishes to conceal some Light, then that part of us is eating swine flesh.

    It is difficult to avoid, in fact: hence the forgiveness of the last part of (2:173).

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #116 - December 07, 2010, 01:38 PM

    Very creative whitewashing.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #117 - December 07, 2010, 01:54 PM

    Quote from: Zebedee
    [4:43]
    O you who believe! Do not go near Salāh when you are intoxicated, until you know what you say, nor in a state of ‘major impurity’...


    which suggests that it is OK to get drunk as long as one does not go to prayers in that state

    Quote
    Hehehehe...

    The banning of booze was a gradual thing.

    [2:219]
    They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.


    And then we have 5:90:

    O you who believe! intoxicants....are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.

    So here we have an apparent contradiction/incongruity/discrepancy between a couple of verses permitting alcohol as long as Muslims do not go to prayers drunk and another banning it completely. This poses a real problem for Muslims in the light of verse 4.82:

    Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy/contradiction/incongruity.

    Orthodox Islam got round such faith-threatening contradictions with the concept of abrogation. Modern day supposedly "Koran-only" Muslims (aware of the problems that the hadith etc pose to  efforts to convince potential converts that Islam is all sweetness and light) claim to reject abrogation along with the hadith etc that the Orthodox enlist to support the doctrine. Unfortunately for them, such Koranic contradictions as above by themselves lead to an even more insurmountable problem ie:

    THE KORAN CANNOT BE A DIVINE BOOK

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #118 - December 07, 2010, 03:41 PM

    Regarding alcohol, see my previous point regarding abrogation. It's certainly not a fixed set of laws. Instead it is a kind of vector/dynamic movement.

    We understand alcohol/intoxication to be a movement within the third level of consciousness (there are four, corresponding to the four rivers mentioned in the Qur'an, of water, milk, wine and honey, and each with a "wife" associated to it). When one enters into that particular state of consciousness, one transcends all world view/systems/perspectives/cultures/laws, viewing them as entities/objects to be manipulated/deterritorialized/reterritorialized. It's the kind of space you get into when you truly reject Islam as a religion -- you move from one world view to another -- and perceive the world as completely relative. If you've ever been there, you will know it is a dizzying experience, that meta-view -- and a good description is like being drunk.

    Qur'an is ambiguous about that state of mind -- it does not outlaw it, though it forbids it. So Sufis do enter into it, carefully. We call it jihad sometimes.

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #119 - December 07, 2010, 04:32 PM

    Taylor.  Why did the say say thus:

    007.084  We rained a rain upon them. See now the nature of the consequence of evil-doers!

    When in fact, It rained "fire and brimstone, both from above and below"

    And please explain Surah 19, and WHY does it shift from Mary (Isa's mother)
    to Miram (Moses' and Aaron's sister), then to her cousin Elizabeth, etc.  

    The chapter is mass confusion.  Having studied christian theology for some time,
    it makes no sense whatsoever.  Alot like the first verse about Lot, its almost like
    Mohammad got part of the story right, and left out the rest.  

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
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