Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Yesterday at 01:32 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Yesterday at 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 08:53 AM

New Britain
November 29, 2024, 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Islame re-reads the Quran

 (Read 91850 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 7 8 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #120 - December 07, 2010, 09:35 PM

    @Islame

    The scholars spin those verses and say that Allah asked the pagans first to make 10 surahs like it, but then, seeing that they couldn't even do that, asked them to make only one, which only added insult to injury when they couldn't even do that.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #121 - December 07, 2010, 09:58 PM

    Jeez, they've got an answer for everything  Cheesy  btw how did you find that out?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #122 - December 07, 2010, 10:03 PM

    An omniscient god would know that the pagans wouldn't be able to meet the challenge - so if you accept that version of events - why not set the challenge to 1 verse in the first place?

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #123 - December 07, 2010, 10:27 PM

    And please explain Surah 19, and WHY does it shift from Mary (Isa's mother)
    to Miram (Moses' and Aaron's sister), then to her cousin Elizabeth, etc.  

    The chapter is mass confusion.  Having studied christian theology for some time,
    it makes no sense whatsoever.  Alot like the first verse about Lot, its almost like
    Mohammad got part of the story right, and left out the rest.  


    I assume you are referring to the problems of reconciling the Torah, Gospel accounts and the Quran, as noted by, for example,
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/sister_of_aaron.htm

    Basically, I read it literally, just as Aisha did: Mariam, the mother of Jesus is the same Mariam who is also the brother of Aaron. I am not ignoring the fact that there is a significant timespan that separates the two Mariams -- if we were to read Torah, Gospels and Quran as accurate historical accounts. But they are not historical accounts -- I'm sure all ex-Muslims here will agree on that at least. The two Mariams are the same Mariam because they are of the same soul -- or, to put it in Jungian new-agey terminology, they are the same symbol/archetype.

    Briefly (sorry it gets obscure here) this is because in Judaic/Sufic understanding, Moses and Aaron are, as archetypes, the so-called "uncle" and "father" respectively of Shekhina/Sakina, the female immanently felt presence of God. (She appears in the hadeeth literature as Safiyah, the Jewish wife of the prophet -- who referred to by Muhammed as the niece of Moses and daughter of Aaron.)

    That Shekhina/Sakina/Safiyah is intimately related to the Body of Christ/Messiah. I won't go into any more details about unless you want me to. Anyhow a "sister" of two brother archetypes is a feminine version their combination. Hence the sister of Aaron is a feminine version of Aaron and Moses mixed together so to speak -- the archetype of Prophecy (messaging) mixed with the archetype of Priesthood (slavery to God). She is both these things, in the Torah and then again in the Gospel and in the Surah, where we see her act as both a priestess in slavery to God and a prophetess, receiving the message of the Christ.

    And just as the two brothers give "birth" to Sakina -- their single, combined form of a sister Mariam gives "birth" to the Christ, the Christ being masculine match to the Sakina, approximately at least.

    What I have just said is standard stuff in esoteric tafsir -- and is not limited to Sufism nor to Qur'an. If you were to read Issac Luria, for example, whose work forms the basis of Hassidic Judaism, you will see similar "confusions/conflations" of Prophetic archetypes. For example, the archetype of Abel is confused in his writing with Moses: the conflation enabling him to make a point that Abel's sin is corrected through being "reincarnated" so to speak in the body of Moses. Also, we find in the Christian gnostic literature, some very nice examples of Eve being confused/conflated with other women in the bible.

    The Qur'an -- for me at least -- is much like Luria and the gnostic literature in its historically-transcendent archetypical treatment of figures like Mariam. Obviously I've got the bulk of the ummah against me here, but they are against me on much bigger points -- like what is halal! -- this is some pretty obscure stuff we are talking about in comparison Smiley

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #124 - December 07, 2010, 10:40 PM

    Jeez, they've got an answer for everything  Cheesy  btw how did you find that out?


    It's in the tafsirs. See Jalalayn and Ma'ariful Qur'an on 11:13.

    Or do they say, ‘He has invented it’?, that is, the Qur’ān. Say: ‘Then bring ten sūras the like thereof, in terms of clarity and rhetorical excellence, invented, for you are Arabs who speak [Arabic] eloquently, like myself — he challenged them to these [ten sūras] first, and then to one sūra

    Or Ma'ariful Qur'an:

    The reason is that they were first asked to bring ten surahs. They failed to do so. Then, to make their inability look more pronounced, it was said in the verse of Surah al-Baqarah quoted above: if you take the Qur'an to be the word of man, then you too bring no more than just one surah being the like of it. But, despite this challenge of the Qur'an being made so easy for them, they could do nothing.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #125 - December 07, 2010, 11:31 PM

    So, I got to about page 9 and gave up reading, too fantasy oriented, and absurdly over-worded, to the point of being monotonous.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #126 - December 07, 2010, 11:53 PM

    The problem is any God you try to define, you are restricting it to a set of axioms, any definition based on a set of axioms cannot prove, it's definition of true to be true. This is why I say I do not believe in a God defined by religious scriptures, because it cannot possibly show to be true, and what is worse it carries internal contradictions. This is of course going back to Godel's incompleteness theorems of mathematical logic.

    Going back slightly further to Aristotle I pointed out the problem of infinite, since God would have had to exist for eternity, and a God is perfect - and by definition does not require addition so he must be a completed infinite, yet a completed infinity cannot exist.

    Further reading: - taken from Paradoxes in Islam - by King Tut.
    Quote

    .......Infinite and Existence

    Allah gives himself the attribute of infinite by claiming he is "Al-'Azim" in the Qu'ran (2:255, 42:4, 56:96) if the universe was 'created' by Allah then he could not have existed until he created the universe since there was no concept of time, and space. Since nothing can exist outside of existence by definition then Allah cannot be infinite, since he could not have existed outside of 'creation' in which everything exists. Moreover according to Aristotle, a completed infinity cannot exist even as an idea in the mind of a human. In mathematics and philosophy we find two concepts of infinity: potential infinity, which is the infinity of a process which never stops, and actual infinity which is supposed to be static and completed, so that it can be thought of as an object. Potential infinity can exist however actual (or completed) infinities do not exist, which is often applied to Allah, since Allah is claimed to be a completed infinite object......


    At the end of the day, no matter what psychological and verbal acrobatics you do, if your shit is inconsistent, then it is not perfect and if it is not perfect then pushing it into realms of fantasy does not give it credence and veracity. So fuck your stupid pop-psychology, trying to sell us a book bullshit, and fuck your God to. As someone who likes Sufism you are not doing it any credit by trying to make it compatible with the Qur'an.

    Hail Motherfuckin' Science.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #127 - December 07, 2010, 11:54 PM


    This shit will come in handy in prison, KT.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #128 - December 08, 2010, 12:07 AM

    I don't think I am going to find reasonable people in there. They are full of rapists, murders, and Islamofacists.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #129 - December 08, 2010, 12:18 AM

    @KingTut

    Quote
    Going back slightly further to Aristotle I pointed out the problem of infinite, since God would have had to exist for eternity, and a God is perfect - and by definition does not require addition so he must be a completed infinite, yet a completed infinity cannot exist.


    A salient problem with that argument is that 'perfection' is not a strictly-defined concept. Different individuals will have a different conception of what exactly would make anything, in this case, God, perfect. That and, theists would say that God's existence is infinite in the sense that it has neither a beginning nor an end, and not that God is infinite in some kind of physical or even temporal sense, because God exists outside of both space and time.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #130 - December 08, 2010, 12:41 AM

    @KingTut

    A salient problem with that argument is that 'perfection' is not a strictly-defined concept. Different individuals will have a different conception of what exactly would make anything, in this case, God, perfect. That and, theists would say that God's existence is infinite in the sense that it has neither a beginning nor an end, and not that God is infinite in some kind of physical or even temporal sense, because God exists outside of both space and time.


    Nothing can exist outside of existence by definition. It would be a utter logical fallacy to say, something can exist outside of time and space. While at the same time saying it has a influence on a finite universe. Moreover, nothing can exist as an infinity, it would always require addition to exist, the whole point is, it is impossible to even imagine a completed infinite, even if that did exist outside of space and time.

    Moreover Occam's Razor states that one should not multiply, beyond logical parsimony what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything. According to Occam, the idea of God is not established by evident experience or evident reasoning. All we know about God we know from revelation. The foundation of all theology, therefore, is faith. Ockham did not apply the principle of parsimony to the articles of faith, but if he did it would have been equally valid.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #131 - December 08, 2010, 01:12 AM

    @KingTut

    Quote
    Nothing can exist outside of existence by definition. It would be a utter logical fallacy to say, something can exist outside of time and space.


    It would be an utter logical fallacy to equate space and time with existence. Modern physics has shown that both space and time are contingent and came into being at a specific point, and so they therefore cannot possibly comprise 'existence' in its entirety.

    Quote
    While at the same time saying it has a influence on a finite universe.


    This I think is a better objection to the concept of the theistic God. It is completely contradictory that a being that is entirely atemporal should, at the same time, perform certain actions at a specific point 'in time' that affect the temporal universe.

    Quote
    Moreover, nothing can exist as an infinity, it would always require addition to exist, the whole point is, it is impossible to even imagine a completed infinite


    Well, I think it is a logical necessity that there exists a primal, necessary 'being' or 'state' upon which all else depends for its existence. Other than that, it seems that one must assert that existence itself began, though not within 'time,' of course, and it did so for no reason, without any cause. And of course, I surely don't need to explain the absurdity of an infinite chain of causal events.

    Given the necessity of a first cause, then, there must be an immutable principle upon which all else is contingent. But this need not be 'infinite' in a quantitative sense, such as existing for an infinite amount of time. Rather, it may simply be immutable and necessary for the existence of everything else.

    Quote
    it is impossible to even imagine a completed infinite


    Well yes. A 'completed infinite' is an intrinsically incoherent concept. That and, infinity may be unimaginable, but that doesn't, of course, mean that it's impossible. There are things that human minds cannot grasp, though their existence is pretty much certain, like particular subatomic particles.

    But then, I don't mean to say that I think that an actual quantitative infinite can exist, I just took issue with your seeming to imply that because it's 'impossible to imagine' that it is, therefore, impossible in the absolute sense.

    Quote
    Moreover Occam's Razor states that one should not multiply, beyond logical parsimony what is necessary


    I know. But you're surely aware that Occam's Razor does have its limitations. There are some scenarios in which what we believe to be the most parsimonious explanation will be entirely contingent upon our limited knowledge. This seems to be one of those scenarios.

    You may use it against the conceptions of the theistic God however, in that it itself is not a particularly parsimonious explanation.

    I'd write more, but now, I need to sleep. Until next time.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #132 - December 08, 2010, 01:31 AM

    I need to go to sleep too right now. Will try to get back soon.
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #133 - December 08, 2010, 03:27 AM

    Do they even know that qul-ho-wallah was written by pagans?

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #134 - December 08, 2010, 03:28 AM

    In fact all the poetic surah's were like poems written by pagans and they used to stick those writings on kabah. That later made to quran? (By the way, I can't find the source for this claim at the moment.)

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #135 - December 08, 2010, 05:48 AM

    Quote from: The tailor
    Regarding alcohol, see my previous point regarding abrogation. It's certainly not a fixed set of laws. Instead it is a kind of vector/dynamic movement.

    We understand alcohol/intoxication to be a movement within the third level of consciousness (there are four, corresponding to the four rivers mentioned in the Qur'an, of water, milk, wine and honey, and each with a "wife" associated to it). When one enters into that particular state of consciousness, one transcends all world view/systems/perspectives/cultures/laws, viewing them as entities/objects to be manipulated/deterritorialized/reterritorialized. It's the kind of space you get into when you truly reject Islam as a religion -- you move from one world view to another -- and perceive the world as completely relative. If you've ever been there, you will know it is a dizzying experience, that meta-view -- and a good description is like being drunk.

    Qur'an is ambiguous about that state of mind -- it does not outlaw it, though it forbids it. So Sufis do enter into it, carefully. We call it jihad sometimes.


    Well, historically, Tailor sufis - or the best of them - had to justify their Islamically heretical ideas and practices, like alcohol consumption, by the Qur'an in order to guard themselves from the very real danger of being killed as apostates. Is such a danger a very real possibility for you? If not, wouldn't it be better that you ceased dressing up your spirituality in Islamic clothing and stop calling yourself a "Muslim"? It just confuses people as to the exact nature of Islam.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #136 - December 08, 2010, 06:03 AM

    lol

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #137 - December 08, 2010, 06:07 AM

    "Confusing people as the exact nature of Islam" hahahahahahaha

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #138 - December 08, 2010, 06:07 AM

    "Stop dressing up your spirituality in Islamic clothing" llololololololol

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #139 - December 08, 2010, 06:23 AM

    So what's so funny?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #140 - December 08, 2010, 07:25 AM



    We understand alcohol/intoxication to be a movement within the third level of consciousness (there are four, corresponding to the four rivers mentioned in the Qur'an, of water, milk, wine and honey, and each with a "wife" associated to it). When one enters into that particular state of consciousness, one transcends all world view/systems/perspectives/cultures/laws, viewing them as entities/objects to be manipulated/deterritorialized/reterritorialized.


    Hi tailor,

    If possible, can you please elaborate on the other rivers and what being in those particular states means for a person. Also, how does one understand this quandrangular mandala archetype of 4 levels in relationship to the 7 levels of the miraj?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #141 - December 08, 2010, 10:14 AM

    In fact all the poetic surah's were like poems written by pagans and they used to stick those writings on kabah. That later made to quran? (By the way, I can't find the source for this claim at the moment.)

    actually thats quite damning if you can find a source to the claim - as often the miraculousness of the quran is shown by the fact that an illiterate goat herder could write such poetic verses

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #142 - December 08, 2010, 10:17 AM

    @Islame

    The scholars spin those verses and say that Allah asked the pagans first to make 10 surahs like it, but then, seeing that they couldn't even do that, asked them to make only one, which only added insult to injury when they couldn't even do that.

    come to think of it, its a pretty solid defence - can you think of a decent riposte?  It does look like this "bring a single surah like it" claim came after the 10 verses claim.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #143 - December 08, 2010, 10:29 AM

    And this is why we have one verse challenging us with fabricating "1" surah and another saying "10". The difference between "1" and "10" is how a particular active movement is perceived by us/Muhammed in our/his revelation. A movement from 1 to 10 or 10 to 1.

    10, in Judaic cosmology, being the full number of the tree of life (I mentioned above) and 1 being a kind of tawhid: 7 for the levels of the miraj and 3 for the mother/father principle and their origin. But tawhid is achieved only through growing/balancing your psychology, through growing through the tree of life. So 1 will become 10 and 10 will become 1.

    I can try to make it clearer but this is a pretty minute point -- my favourite kinds of course, as the blessings for me are always in the infinite complexity of the details.

    TT

    Thanks for the response, although I'm ashamed to say I still dont have a good handle on your position, despite all our time sparring on this forum  grin12

    No doubt you've heard this criticism countless times before, and I know you often take it in a light-hearted fashion but its the accusation of spin I want to get to the bottom off.

    You see if we take an random saying, lets take a kids nursery rhyme "Ring aring of roses, a pocketfull of posies, atishoo, atishoo, all fall down "

    If I turned round & said this was divinely ordained, and applied a Islame-ite Sufi interpretation on this verse, roses are the beautiful beings that were created by Allah, & I could claim posies stands for posers, people who like to show off, and they all fall down shows how pride comes before a fall."

    If I can do this to all the "collection of the very best nursey rhymes for kiddies", does that then make it divinely ordained scipture?  

    Obviously not, so the crux of my argument is how do you come to the conclusion that these rhymes are just a collection of manmade tales, and the Quran isnt?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #144 - December 08, 2010, 10:59 AM

    come to think of it, its a pretty solid defence - can you think of a decent riposte?  It does look like this "bring a single surah like it" claim came after the 10 verses claim.


    Yeah. Surah Baqarah is Madinan, whereas the one in which ten surahs is mentioned is Meccan, so the chronology adds up. Seems like a good defense to me. But it doesn't really matter, there are far more damning criticisms one can make of the Qur'an.  grin12
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #145 - December 08, 2010, 11:31 AM

    Miriam, Isa's mother and Miriam. Moses' and Aaron's sister are thousands of years
    apart! lulz.  And while I understand your concept  of soul splitting  *and also the
    Jungian theory of cellular memory--very interesting*,  they are NOT one in the
    same.  I also am VERY familiar with the Shekana "glory", which in this case, it
    has nothing to do with the question that I asked.  I was a holiness pentacostal
    before I became a muslim.  The one thing I DO understand about the sufis is
    the ecstatic realm reached in dance and worship.  Ive "been there, done that".
    Mohammad didn't believe in the concept of splitting souls, did he?  Or worshipping
    with singing and dance.  OR sticking knives in one's head while in that ecstatic
    state of the "SHEKANA GLORY"

    Also, there is no mention of the other super significant prophets like Ezekiel.
    Now HE had some experiences with God! lulz  Or Hezekiah, or Hosea.  Where
    is mention of Elijah or Elisha!  The story of Daniel is pretty significant as well!
    Where are the stories about Job?  VERY significant in Abrahamic  lore
    re: "the book"

    I was not long ago enlightened to surah 29:27.  NOWHERE in the Quran
    does it state that Ishmael also received the inheritance of prophets in his
    lineage.  But Isaac and Jacob did. 

    AND lastly, pray tell, how did Mohammad know Isa did or did not die on
    the cross?  The idea that it was someone else up there was very popular
    among the Jews.  More than likely, the same ones that told him about
    Abraham and Moses, since he borrowed so much of their lore for his
    book. 

    ALSO... something as significant as having chats with angels, wouldn't
    he have had to have at least ONE witness?  Couldn't be Aisha, as it
    was only hearsay when she heard it, plus, she was a woman, so there
    would have had to have been TWO witnesses. 

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #146 - December 08, 2010, 11:48 AM

    I would also LOVE IT of Mo was here to discuss this.  I wonder if he could
    keep up with the conversation LOL

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #147 - December 08, 2010, 11:58 AM

    Regarding alcohol, see my previous point regarding abrogation. It's certainly not a fixed set of laws. Instead it is a kind of vector/dynamic movement.

    We understand alcohol/intoxication to be a movement within the third level of consciousness (there are four, corresponding to the four rivers mentioned in the Qur'an, of water, milk, wine and honey, and each with a "wife" associated to it). When one enters into that particular state of consciousness, one transcends all world view/systems/perspectives/cultures/laws, viewing them as entities/objects to be manipulated/deterritorialized/reterritorialized. It's the kind of space you get into when you truly reject Islam as a religion -- you move from one world view to another -- and perceive the world as completely relative. If you've ever been there, you will know it is a dizzying experience, that meta-view -- and a good description is like being drunk.

    Qur'an is ambiguous about that state of mind -- it does not outlaw it, though it forbids it. So Sufis do enter into it, carefully. We call it jihad sometimes.


    The heresy of Sufis. So sweet.

    Next thing you know a Sufi will be interpreting the full stop punctuation, a dot ' . ' , on the English translation of the Quran as "the concentration of the initial stages of every object in existence from which their properties spotaneously emerge and take shape into being, a reverse transformation of their inherent nature turned inside out in a parallel mirror realm" also known as the concept of "Wahda-Faqh- Izdeez Kaput"
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #148 - December 08, 2010, 12:13 PM

    ASTAGHFIRULLAH! May Allah punish severely these Sufis and their heresies, all these that they claim which have not been sent down with authority and approval from you!

    JAZAKALLAH! May Allah reward the Salaf handsomely, oh wait I mean prettyly (houris yeah!)
  • Re: Islame re-reads the Quran
     Reply #149 - December 08, 2010, 12:17 PM

    I would also LOVE IT of Mo was here to discuss this.  I wonder if he could
    keep up with the conversation LOL

    No chance, he's not a fool like us - he would have been off looking for his next wife to bone

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 7 8 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »