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 Topic: South African fossils could be new hominid species

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  • South African fossils could be new hominid species
     OP - April 08, 2010, 07:40 PM

    Subhannallah!!!!!


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus_sediba
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8609192.stm



    The remarkable remains of two ancient human-like creatures (hominids) have been found in South Africa.

    The fossils of a female adult and a juvenile male - perhaps mother and son - are just under two million years old.

    They were uncovered in cave deposits at Malapa not far from Johannesburg.

    Researchers tell the journal Science that the creatures fill an important gap between older hominids and the group of more modern species known as Homo, which includes our own kind.

    The team has assigned the name Australopithecus sediba to their finds.

    "It's at the point where we transition from an ape that walks on two legs to, effectively, us," lead scientist Professor Lee Berger of the University of the Witwatersrand told BBC News.

    "I think that probably everyone is aware that this period of time - that period between 1.8 and just over two million years [ago] - is one of the most poorly represented in the entire early hominid fossil record. You're talking about a very small, very fragmentary record," he explained.

    Rapid burial

    Many scientists regard the Australopithecines as being directly ancestral to Homo but the precise placement of A. sediba in the human family tree is already proving controversial, with some scientists arguing the species may well be a Homo itself.

    The Malapa creatures lived right on the cusp of the emergence of Homo species. Indeed, there are some fossils from East Africa thought to be Homo that are slightly older than the new specimens.

    A. sediba has a fascinating mix of features - some archaic, some modern.

    Its small teeth, projecting nose, very advanced pelvis, and long legs throw forward to more modern forms. And yet its very long arms and small brain case might echo the much older Australopithecine group to which Professor Berger and colleagues have assigned it.

    The Malapa fossils were unearthed in the famous Cradle of Humankind World Heritage Site, which has yielded many fine fossils down the years.

    They were pulled from a pit - what is left of a cave complex that has lost its roof through erosion over time.

    The bones were located within a metre or so of each other, suggesting they died at the same time or very soon after one another. It is entirely possible they were mother and son, says Professor Berger's group. At the very least, it seem reasonable to assume they knew each other and belonged to the same troupe, the team adds.

    The scientists speculate the creatures either fell into the cave complex or became stuck in it. It is likely their bodies were then swept into an underground lake or pool, perhaps during a rainstorm.

    Their bones were laid down with the remains of other dead animals, including a sabre-toothed cat, antelope, mice and rabbits. The fact that none of the bodies appear to have been scavenged indicates that all died suddenly and were entombed rapidly.

    "We think that there must have been some sort of calamity taking place at the time that caused all of these fossils to come down together into the cave where they got trapped and ultimately buried," said team-member Professor Paul Dirks from James Cook University in Queensland, Australia.

    All were preserved in the hard calcified clastic sediment that formed at the bottom of a pool of water.

    Vigorous debate about the significance of finds in the field of palaeoanthropology is common, and A. sediba has already generated much comment within the scientific community.

    Professor Colin Groves, from the Australian National University, said his assessment of the Malapa hominids led him to conclude that they were actually a new species of Homo, not Australopithecus.

    "In fact, the authors themselves pointed to certain similarities with early Homo, seeming even to admit that the predominance of its features were with Homo, only the small cranial capacity being really an "australopithecine" feature," he commented.

    "But we now know of [the Indonesian 'Hobbit' species] Homo floresiensis with the cranial capacity more or less the same as the new species."

    The richness of the fossil finds means the Malapa cave complex is likely to keep scientists busy for many years.

    In addition to the two hominids reported in the journal Science, the remains of two further individuals are in the process of excavation.

    The site was found by the team thanks to the "virtual globe" software Google Earth, which allowed the group to map and visualise the most promising fossil grounds in the World Heritage Site.

    The first discovery of A. sediba remains was made in August 2008. The very first bone was picked up by Professor Berger's nine-year-old son, Matthew.

    "I turned the rock over and I saw the clavicle sticking out - that's the collar bone. I didn't know what it was at first; I thought it was just an antelope," the youngster told BBC News.

    "So I called my dad over and about five metres away he started swearing, and I was like 'what did I do wrong?' and he's like, 'nothing, nothing - you found a hominid'."

    The scientists say they will hold a competition in South Africa to give the juvenile specimen a name, to help people identify better with the species, just as they can with the 3.2-million-year-old Australopithecus afarensis creature found in Ethiopia and known to the world simply as "Lucy".

    The name "sediba" means "fountain" or "wellspring" in the Sesotho language spoken in South Africa

    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #1 - April 08, 2010, 07:44 PM


    Expect to see explanations about which part of the Quran predicts these skulls and bones sometime this month.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #2 - April 08, 2010, 09:00 PM

    @billy...
    oh that's truth if i ever heard it... soooo right!!.. lol Cheesy
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #3 - April 08, 2010, 09:03 PM

    Expect to see explanations about which part of the Quran predicts these skulls and bones sometime this month.



    Never!  That would be admitting evolution is true

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #4 - April 08, 2010, 09:08 PM

    Quote
    Never!  That would be admitting evolution is true


    They will be explained as solidified djinns from a verse about something completely unrelated.

    They were frozen by a lightning bolt as they did something naughty.

    There will be a complex mathematical formula to explain how the location they were found in is predicted therein.

    Remember, Allah is even responsible for the farts of a solitary donkey one afternoon in the year 1863 lolling by the banks of the River Tiber. He not only knows best, he knows all!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #5 - April 08, 2010, 09:10 PM

    They will be explained as solidified djinns from a verse about something completely unrelated.

    They were frozen by a lightning bolt as they did something naughty.

    There will be a complex mathematical formula to explain how the location they were found in is predicted therein.

    Remember, Allah is even responsible for the farts of a solitary donkey one afternoon in the year 1863 lolling by the banks of the River Tiber. He not only knows best, he knows all!



     Cheesy

    I actually remember an article in Arabic which says that the Large Hadron Collider was used to proove that Jinns exist  Cheesy

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #6 - April 08, 2010, 09:14 PM

    Yeah this will definitely be used to prove how wonderful allah is. And most of the Muslims I know believe in evolution, so that won't even be an issue.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #7 - April 08, 2010, 09:15 PM

    Quote
    I actually remember an article in Arabic which says that the Large Hadron Collider was used to proove that Jinns exist

      

    Grin

    This is a hoax article or image with scientific mumbo-jumbo that HAS to be done!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #8 - April 08, 2010, 09:46 PM

    And most of the Muslims I know believe in evolution, so that won't even be an issue.


    Which is odd considering the Quran says
    1: Adam was created in a form where he could converse and memorise the names of animals.
    2: All humans are created from a single person (i.e. Adam)

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #9 - April 08, 2010, 09:51 PM

    Which verse are you referring to?

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #10 - April 08, 2010, 09:54 PM

    Which verse are you referring to?


    I'll tell you tomorrow when I bring my Kindle downstairs, it has my digital notes in it Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #11 - April 08, 2010, 09:59 PM

    I'll tell you tomorrow when I bring my Kindle downstairs, it has my digital notes in it Smiley

    You have a Kindle. Cool.

    So how does reading on it feel like, I was thinking of getting one but thought it might suck.

    Sorry for being OT.

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #12 - April 08, 2010, 10:43 PM

    Lol there is a verse already!!

    I dont know which one it is but it talks about people being "apes and monkeys". it was in reference to muslims acting like the kuffar but i have had muslims tell me it talks about evolution!!!!

    Amazing book the quran is seriously. its perfectly ok to take something out of context when u need to support a positive argument for the quran but wrong if it is negative.

    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #13 - April 08, 2010, 10:50 PM

    Nice find. I wonder how complete the skeletons are. Probably oretty good if they were found unscavenged.

    Anyway this is funny:
    Quote
    "So I called my dad over and about five metres away he started swearing, and I was like 'what did I do wrong?' and he's like, 'nothing, nothing - you found a hominid'."


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #14 - April 08, 2010, 10:52 PM

    Cheesy

    I actually remember an article in Arabic which says that the Large Hadron Collider was used to proove that Jinns exist  Cheesy

    Grin

    This is a hoax article or image with scientific mumbo-jumbo that HAS to be done!

    You betcha. That one would rock. What would be even better is if we could get it onto an Islamic site as a serious contribution, then publicly pull the pin.  grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #15 - April 09, 2010, 08:17 AM

    Which verse are you referring to?


    4:1 You, you the people, fear and obey your Lord who created you from ONE SELF (a single person - Adam) and He created from it ITS SPOUSE (and his wife EVE), and He scattered/distributed* from them many men and women, and fear and obey God who you ask each other/make oath to each other with Him, and the wombs/uteruses, that God was/is on you observing.


    I don't care how Muslims might try to dress this one up to fit reality, it says that we were all created from a single person and its spouse.  To have a spouse you have to be socially advanced - single celled organisms etc obviously do not have spouses.  I assume زَوۡجَهَا (Zawjahaa) here means spouse although I would have expected it to be Zawjahu.

    But anyway, to have a spouse you need an advanced society. If it means "sexual partner" then it is wrong again because sexual reproduction evolved after asexual reproduction.

    So, have I made my case or is there something I don't know? Because to me this looks like a straight forward rip off of Adam/Eve in the Bible.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #16 - April 09, 2010, 11:54 AM

    I don't care how Muslims might try to dress this one up to fit reality, it says that we were all created from a single person and its spouse.  To have a spouse you have to be socially advanced - single celled organisms etc obviously do not have spouses.  I assume زَوۡجَهَا (Zawjahaa) here means spouse although I would have expected it to be Zawjahu.

    But anyway, to have a spouse you need an advanced society. If it means "sexual partner" then it is wrong again because sexual reproduction evolved after asexual reproduction.

    So, have I made my case or is there something I don't know? Because to me this looks like a straight forward rip off of Adam/Eve in the Bible.


    It's zawjahaa because it is 'its spouse,' the spouse of the aforementioned self, or 'nafsin.' If it said 'his spouse,' then it would be zawjahu, I believe.
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #17 - April 09, 2010, 11:59 AM

    And in any case, I'd have thought that Islam ruined its chances of being reconciled with evolution after Muhammad claimed that people used to be 60 cubits tall.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #18 - April 09, 2010, 12:21 PM

     Smiley

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #19 - April 09, 2010, 12:29 PM

    And in any case, I'd have thought that Islam ruined its chances of being reconciled with evolution after Muhammad claimed that people used to be 60 cubits tall.  Roll Eyes

    And I'll bet not even Zakir Naik can find enough science in the Quran to explain the biomechanics of that. grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #20 - April 09, 2010, 12:34 PM

    And in any case, I'd have thought that Islam ruined its chances of being reconciled with evolution after Muhammad claimed that people used to be 60 cubits tall.  Roll Eyes


    That was a hadith though not in the Quran, wasn't it?

    Inconvenient ahadith are constantly dismissed by Muslims as "just a story that probably isn't true".

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #21 - April 09, 2010, 01:05 PM

    And I'll bet not even Zakir Naik can find enough science in the Quran to explain the biomechanics of that. grin12


    That was a hadith though not in the Quran, wasn't it?

    Inconvenient ahadith are constantly dismissed by Muslims as "just a story that probably isn't true".


    Cue the 'it's a weak hadith' cop out.

    But, having discussed it with Muslims, I know that there are in fact those who actually believe it.
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #22 - April 09, 2010, 01:53 PM

    Cue the 'it's a weak hadith' cop out.

    But, having discussed it with Muslims, I know that there are in fact those who actually believe it.


    My Dad was telling me that the receptionist at his doctors' was talking about how tall Noah used to be - he told her she was talking crap and that it is shocking she has any association with medical science.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #23 - April 09, 2010, 11:49 PM

    o shit! it could be the jews Smiley

    7:166 But when even after this they disdainfully persisted in that from which they were forbidden, We said to them, "Become apes—despised and disgraced!"

    2:65 And you know well the story of those among you who broke Sabbath. We said to them: "Be apes—despised and hated by all." 66 Thus We made their end a warning to the people of their time and succeeding generation, and an admonition for God-fearing people. (Maududi)

    believe it or not muslims have argued with me saying this is about evolution!! Sigh....

    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #24 - April 10, 2010, 01:08 AM

    4:1 You, you the people, fear and obey your Lord who created you from ONE SELF (a single person - Adam) and He created from it ITS SPOUSE (and his wife EVE), and He scattered/distributed* from them many men and women, and fear and obey God who you ask each other/make oath to each other with Him, and the wombs/uteruses, that God was/is on you observing.


    I don't care how Muslims might try to dress this one up to fit reality, it says that we were all created from a single person and its spouse.  To have a spouse you have to be socially advanced - single celled organisms etc obviously do not have spouses.  I assume زَوۡجَهَا (Zawjahaa) here means spouse although I would have expected it to be Zawjahu.

    But anyway, to have a spouse you need an advanced society. If it means "sexual partner" then it is wrong again because sexual reproduction evolved after asexual reproduction.

    So, have I made my case or is there something I don't know? Because to me this looks like a straight forward rip off of Adam/Eve in the Bible.

    Well, Muslims would explain evolution as god's method of choice for creating the first humans (Adam and Eve). And they would laugh at the idea of needing an advanced society in order to be married -- everyone knows it was only Adam and Eve there, just the two. That verse is very clear about there being only Adam to begin with. And they were obviously married because god created Eve for the sole purpose of being Adam's wife, kind of like a gift. Which is how we know what a woman's purpose in life is.

    And of course it's a rip off of Adam and Eve in the bible, just a more correct version, as Muslims will claim. Christians didn't get it all wrong. They had the true religion to start off with, they just messed most of it up.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: South African fossils could be new hominid species
     Reply #25 - April 10, 2010, 08:03 AM

    7:166 But when even after this they disdainfully persisted in that from which they were forbidden, We said to them, "Become apes—despised and disgraced!"


    The guy down the road actually used that to try to prove that the Quran explained evolution.  I pointed out that humans and apes share a common ancestor, humans did not turn into apes.  The ignorance is amazing.  I sometimes suspect that "Allah did it" is all that some people are capable of understanding.

    Well, Muslims would explain evolution as god's method of choice for creating the first humans (Adam and Eve). And they would laugh at the idea of needing an advanced society in order to be married -- everyone knows it was only Adam and Eve there, just the two. That verse is very clear about there being only Adam to begin with. And they were obviously married because god created Eve for the sole purpose of being Adam's wife...


    Sure they CAN say that, but then it isn't difficult to point out
    1: Early life from which we evolved didn't have sexual reproduction
    2: At the point sexual reproduction evolved there were already FAR more than two reproducing entities.

    I love it when people try to reconcile bullshit religious beliefs with science.  I think that's why I enjoy Islam so much, because every Muslim I meet believes the Quran is 100% perfect - whereas with Christians they just say "Those two verses were added by humans later and are not genuine".

    PS: The latter is what was said to me when I pointed out a verse in Matthew which states that when Jesus arose from the dead all of the pious people in the cemetery came back to life, went home, and chatted with relatives.  He couldn't explain why not a single independent historian of the time mentioned this slightly unusual occurrence Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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