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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why is there something rather than nothing?

 (Read 19216 times)
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  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #60 - April 14, 2010, 12:43 PM

    far away hug


    Come here you big cuddly hunk you  far away hug
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #61 - April 15, 2010, 07:19 AM

    Well the whole idea of ontology is to argue that God exists. Haven't seen much mention of God in this thread, and the univers


    Huh? That's the 'idea of ontology'. Oh man!

    It's I would say, approaching, a scientific form of enquiry, actually. As if ontology can't take place without the idea of god. Today it takes place under the condition of science. Way, way off, you are.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #62 - April 15, 2010, 07:22 AM

    My point was that the way the thread title is phrased shows that people implicitly assume that "nothing"(whatever that may be) would be the default state. We don't know that for a fact. It's an assumption that seems to make sense to us, but that's all. It may be incorrect.


    But it is the default state. Why? Because the universe is a void, and within us is a void... I relate it to the idea of a 'creative nothingness' ala Max Stirner.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #63 - April 15, 2010, 07:22 AM

    Hey, I'm just going off the formal definitions of the term. If you want to make another one, go for it. In any case, a priori reasoning is not in itself a scientific form of enquiry. Science is evidence-based, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #64 - April 15, 2010, 07:25 AM

    But it is the default state. Why? Because the universe is a void, and within us is a void... I relate it to the idea of a 'creative nothingness' ala Max Stirner.

    Nope. The universe isn't a void. It contains lotsa stuff. In fact the bits you think of as "void" are still part of the space/time continuum and that is a property of our universe, not a property of "nothing". A real void would not even contain space and time.

    So, how do you know "nothing" is the default state? You don't. It's just an assumption that feels right to you.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #65 - April 15, 2010, 07:25 AM

    Where did you get your formal definition from?

    Rejection God in no way denies categories of being and existence. Quite the opposite.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #66 - April 15, 2010, 07:26 AM

    Nope. The universe isn't a void. It contains lotsa stuff. In fact the bits you think of as "void" are still part of the space/time continuum and that is a property of our universe, not a property of "nothing". A real void would not even contain space and time.

    So, how do you know "nothing' is the default state? You don't. It's just an assumption that feels right to you.


    Space and time don't exist. They are pure intuitions.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #67 - April 15, 2010, 07:29 AM

    Space and time don't exist. They are pure intuitions.

    Sophistry. Tongue

    Space and time have observable, repeatable properties and are real enough to kill you. This means they are pure intuitions in the same way that a Mack truck is a pure intuition. If you want to stand in the middle of a freeway and argue with pure intuition, you go for it.  Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #68 - April 15, 2010, 07:32 AM

    They don't exist in themselves, only for us, and NIST seem to agree as well.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #69 - April 15, 2010, 07:34 AM

    They don't exist in themselves, only for us

    Evidence?

    Quote
    , and NIST seem to agree as well.

    Who?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #70 - April 15, 2010, 07:38 AM

    Evidence?


    My ability to disagree that they exist will suffice.

    Quote
    Who?


    Got the best clocks in the world.

    http://www.time.gov/

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #71 - April 15, 2010, 07:49 AM

    My ability to disagree that they exist will suffice.

    That is not evidence. That is opinion.

    Quote
    Got the best clocks in the world.

    http://www.time.gov/

    They may have the best clocks in the world but that page takes a ridiculous amount of time to load. I'll check it later.

    Anyway: time and space. If they only exist for us then how does the rest of the universe operate without them?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #72 - April 15, 2010, 07:51 AM

    Aristotle pointed out there is only motion of things instead of time.

    Leibniz later developed that observation.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #73 - April 15, 2010, 07:52 AM

    Oh and I got the definition of "ontological" from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. I wasn't familiar with the term so I looked it up. Go argue with Stanford. Tongue

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/

    Quote
    Ontological arguments are arguments, for the conclusion that God exists, from premises which are supposed to derive from some source other than observation of the world—e.g., from reason alone. In other words, ontological arguments are arguments from nothing but analytic, a priori and necessary premises to the conclusion that God exists.


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #74 - April 15, 2010, 07:54 AM

    Aristotle pointed out there is only motion of things instead of time.

    Leibniz later developed that observation.

    Aristotle made a number of mistakes. I'm not sure what Liebniz did offhand, but I am sure that modern physics says time and space are things that exist even when we aren't around to see them.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #75 - April 15, 2010, 08:02 AM

    That things exist when we don't see them is not the point.

    Not all of scientific opinion agrees that time and space really 'exist'. It's like saying numbers exist. Numbers are phenomenological categories.

    When you sleep time doesn't exist. Don't be fooled - it really doesn't.

    To return to nothing. No 'ness' is there. It is difficult to comprehened... to think of something about which you don't think.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #76 - April 15, 2010, 08:08 AM

    When you sleep time doesn't exist. Don't be fooled - it really doesn't.

    Provide something to back that assertion.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #77 - April 15, 2010, 08:11 AM

    Have you ever dreamed?

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #78 - April 15, 2010, 08:13 AM

    I don't know. I have no irrefutable evidence of it. My recollections of dreaming may just be an aberration of my brain when I am awake. Over to you. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #79 - April 15, 2010, 08:15 AM

    It's a very empirical thing.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #80 - April 15, 2010, 08:17 AM

    The aberrations of my brain?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #81 - April 15, 2010, 08:18 AM

    Why would it be an aberration, especially when you are experiencing it?

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #82 - April 15, 2010, 08:25 AM

    It was humour. Look it up. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #83 - April 15, 2010, 08:27 AM

    Hilarious.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #84 - April 15, 2010, 08:28 AM

    I thought so. Damned near pissed myself.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #85 - April 15, 2010, 08:29 AM

    hehe

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #86 - February 06, 2015, 08:24 PM

    I am not very sympathetic toward the "something from nothing" argument since the concept of "something" only makes sense within a spatio-temporal framework whilst absolute nothing has none of these properties. It is a weird sort of null set. But even if a set has cardinality zero, it is still something. There is a semantic barrier here which is hard to overcome, similar to "What came before the big bang?" We treat temporal events with respect to time, how do you treat the absence of time itself with respect to time?

    This is especially funny when some use it as a sort of "knock down" argument against atheism (*cough* Hamza Tzortzis *cough*). Until they demonstrate that creation ex nihilo is possible under standard assumptions about God's omnipotence (that he can't do the logically impossible), they are begging the metaphysical question. Apologists are very quick to talk about logical possibilities, I'd like to argue that the notion of something coming from absolute nothing is a logical impossibility. Similar to a square circle... it is not coherent, I can't even envisage it.

    Something coming from nothing assumes "absolute nothing" to be a normal, or a real state of affairs, but everything we know of comes from pre-existing material.

    I'd have to say that we just are.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #87 - February 06, 2015, 08:49 PM

    Nothing is the absence of something and something is the absence of nothing. Before I was born there was nothing, now everything exists and sometimes I wonder if this everything will cease to exist once I die.
    There's something because there's nothing to not be something. But if nothing is something, then something is nothing.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #88 - February 06, 2015, 10:41 PM

    Quote from: preposterousuniverse
    Grünbaum addressed a famous and simple question: “Why is there something rather than nothing?” He called it the Primordial Existential Question, or PEQ for short. (Philosophers are up there with NASA officials when it comes to a weakness for acronyms.) Stated in that form, the question can be traced at least back to Leibniz in his 1697 essay “On the Ultimate Origin of Things,” although it’s been recently championed by Oxford philosopher Richard Swinburne.

    The correct answer to this question is stated right off the bat in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: “Well, why not?” But we have to dress it up to make it a bit more philosophical. First, we would only even consider this an interesting question if there were some reasonable argument in favor of nothingness over existence. As Grünbaum traces it out, Leibniz’s original claim was that nothingness was “spontaneous,” whereas an existing universe required a bit of work to achieve. Swinburne has sharpened this a bit, claiming that nothingness is uniquely “natural,” because it is necessarily simpler than any particular universe. Both of them use this sort of logic to undergird an argument for the existence of God: if nothingness is somehow more natural or likely than existence, and yet here we are, it must be because God willed it to be so.

    I can’t do justice to Grünbaum’s takedown of this position, which was quite careful and well-informed. But the basic idea is straightforward enough. When we talk about things being “natural” or “spontaneous,” we do so on the basis of our experience in this world. This experience equips us with a certain notion of natural — theories are naturally if they are simple and not finely-tuned, configurations are natural if they aren’t inexplicably low-entropy.

    But our experience with the world in which we actually live tells us nothing whatsoever about whether certain possible universes are “natural” or not. In particular, nothing in science, logic, or philosophy provides any evidence for the claim that simple universes are “preferred” (whatever that could possibly mean). We only have experience with one universe; there is no ensemble from which it is chosen, on which we could define a measure to quantify degrees of probability. Who is to say whether a universe described by the non-perturbative completion of superstring theory is likelier or less likely than, for example, a universe described by a Rule 110 cellular automaton?

    It’s easy to get tricked into thinking that simplicity is somehow preferable. After all, Occam’s Razor exhorts us to stick to simple explanations. But that’s a way to compare different explanations that equivalently account for the same sets of facts; comparing different sets of possible underlying rules for the universe is a different kettle of fish entirely. And, to be honest, it’s true that most working physicists have a hope (or a prejudice) that the principles underlying our universe are in fact pretty simple. But that’s simply an expression of our selfish desire, not a philosophical precondition on the space of possible universes. When it comes to the actual universe, ultimately we’ll just have to take what we get.

    Finally, we physicists sometimes muddy the waters by talking about “multiple universes” or “the multiverse.” These days, the vast majority of such mentions refer not to actual other universes, but to different parts of our universe, causally inaccessible from ours and perhaps governed by different low-energy laws of physics (but the same deep-down ones). In that case there may actually be an ensemble of local regions, and perhaps even some sensibly-defined measure on them. But they’re all part of one big happy universe. Comparing the single multiverse in which we live to a universe with completely different deep-down laws of physics, or with different values for such basic attributes as “existence,” is something on which string theory and cosmology are utterly silent.

    Ultimately, the problem is that the question — “Why is there something rather than nothing?” — doesn’t make any sense. What kind of answer could possibly count as satisfying? What could a claim like “The most natural universe is one that doesn’t exist” possibly mean? As often happens, we are led astray by imagining that we can apply the kinds of language we use in talking about contingent pieces of the world around us to the universe as a whole. It makes sense to ask why this blog exists, rather than some other blog; but there is no external vantage point from which we can compare the relatively likelihood of different modes of existence for the universe.

    So the universe exists, and we know of no good reason to be surprised by that fact. I will hereby admit that, when I was a kid (maybe about ten or twelve years old? don’t remember precisely) I actually used to worry about the Primordial Existential Question. That was when I had first started reading about physics and cosmology, and knew enough about the Big Bang to contemplate how amazing it was that we knew anything about the early universe. But then I would eventually hit upon the question of “What if they universe didn’t exist at all?”, and I would get legitimately frightened. (Some kids are scared by clowns, some by existential questions.) So in one sense, my entire career as a physical cosmologist has just been one giant defense mechanism.


    Just came across this, my views are almost identical to this.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #89 - February 07, 2015, 10:00 AM

    Maybe "nothing" is an invention, you know, like that other invention "god"?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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