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 Poll

  • Question: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year old daughters wear hijab?  (Voting closed: April 27, 2010, 09:09 PM)
  • Yes - 19 (82.6%)
  • No - 4 (17.4%)
  • Total Voters: 23

 Topic: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?

 (Read 17570 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     OP - April 22, 2010, 09:09 PM
    ..
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  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #1 - April 22, 2010, 09:26 PM

    I would like to see parents making girls wear face veils investigated for child abuse.

    The hijab, even if you don't like it, and as distasteful as it may be to force a child to wear it, does not cover the face and completely obliterate an individual and snuff them out.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #2 - April 22, 2010, 09:33 PM
    I'm very strongly opposed to any religious indoctrination of children. But what would be achieved by legislation against hijab specifically, ignoring all the other forms of indoctrination children are subjected to? It implies that all other forms of indoctrination are less significant in comparison. As for negative consequences, would banning hijab prompt some Muslim parents (the type who might make their young daughter wear hijab in the first place) to keep those children even more segregated from other children and adults? That's just off the top of my head, I'd like to hear some arguments.
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #3 - April 22, 2010, 09:34 PM
    Quote from: billy on April 22, 2010, 09:26 PM
    I would like to see parents making girls wear face veils investigated for child abuse.

    I see that as a whole separate matter, and as you say a matter for social services involvement, imho. I've never seen a child in the UK donning a face veil, though. I can imagine it might severly stunt their social development.
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #4 - April 22, 2010, 09:36 PM
    Quote from: thinkfree on April 22, 2010, 09:34 PM
    I see that as a whole separate matter, and as you say a matter for social services involvement, imho. I've never seen a child in the UK donning a face veil, though. I can imagine it might severly stunt their social development.

    I can see it being justified by the ummah on the grounds of paedophilia though yes
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  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #5 - April 22, 2010, 09:48 PM


    I've seen girls in niqab a couple of times in Birmingham. I have seen girls wearing a severe jilbab, ie, a sack with just their face open. But the face is the thing that keeps them alive.

    As obnoxious as I find a girl being made to wear a hijab, I wouldn't want legislation enforced against it. But just think about it for a second though - it is perverted. It assumes that girls have a modesty that has to be protected. But who apart from paedophiles thinks along those lines? So what are their parents thinking, that they have to almost be branded with this modesty cloth as kids, in their only time of true innocence, as children? In its very assertion of the boundaries of this, it almost sexualises girls in itself by making them objects for 'modesty'. Girls should be free to sun, skip, play, and feel the breeze in their hair. Its so fucking tragic.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #6 - April 22, 2010, 09:51 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 22, 2010, 09:36 PM
    I can see it being justified by the ummah on the grounds of paedophilia though yes

    In terms of anti-pedo armour: Vader > Burka
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #7 - April 22, 2010, 09:54 PM
    Quote from: billy on April 22, 2010, 09:48 PM
    As obnoxious as I find a girl being made to wear a hijab, I wouldn't want legislation enforced against it. But just think about it for a second though - it is perverted. It assumes that girls have a modesty that has to be protected. But who apart from paedophiles thinks along those lines?

    I dont think the parents see them as sexual beings at such a tender age.

    The parents want to ingrain the brand of Islam, and mark their unique & separate identity from an early age to avoid a possible backlash in the future.
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  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #8 - April 22, 2010, 10:06 PM
    I'm torn on this, partly because the poll is specifically about 5 years old. I think making your 5-year old girl wear Hijab is wicked but on the other hand, same can be said on ideological indoctrination.

    As for the Burka, hell yeah. Child protective services should get involved. And not only 5 year-olds; the Burka should be banned until you're an adult and even then, you're prohibited from covering your face in public buildings. Additionally, I would let private establishments reserve the right not to serve you.
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #9 - April 22, 2010, 10:08 PM
    Yeah I see that IsLame, but its just spooky. Its creepy. I know they want to groom and train the girls to think of their bodies in a certain way from the earliest age. But its so creepy because of the whole projection of modesty, the idea that a girl child has to be aware of how men are considering their bodies. Its just creepy.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #10 - April 22, 2010, 10:35 PM
    Quote from: billy on April 22, 2010, 10:08 PM
    Yeah I see that IsLame, but its just spooky. Its creepy. I know they want to groom and train the girls to think of their bodies in a certain way from the earliest age. But its so creepy because of the whole projection of modesty, the idea that a girl child has to be aware of how men are considering their bodies. Its just creepy.


    I voted yes it should be banned for young girls.

    But I don't think parents do it because they consciously think 'I want to train my daughter to think of her body in a certain way' - they think of it simply as "Islamic" and getting them used to wearing it.
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #11 - April 22, 2010, 10:37 PM

    Yeah, thats their primary idea, but behind that lies so much that is wrong to be imposing on a child.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #12 - April 22, 2010, 10:43 PM
    Quote from: billy on April 22, 2010, 10:08 PM
    Yeah I see that IsLame, but its just spooky. Its creepy. I know they want to groom and train the girls to think of their bodies in a certain way from the earliest age. But its so creepy because of the whole projection of modesty, the idea that a girl child has to be aware of how men are considering their bodies. Its just creepy.




    It's to the point in some cases (mine) that you're even made to feel uncomfortable around your brothers and dad....that's what it's like when you're young you don't know why, and then you're made to feel somehow you have to wear loose clothing etc. Mum would say things like 'what are you wearing, around your father and brothers too...' and give me that dirty look as if there's something wrong with me. If I wore trousers that were 'tight' quotes because they weren't tight, they were just trousers, but i managed to overcome her attempts to keep me wearing traditional clothes (or baggy and crappy western clothes) but I still feel somewhat uncomfortable (automatically) around my dad and older brother.
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #13 - April 22, 2010, 10:46 PM
    I think it's wrong to be imposing the hijab at such a young age. I think it's wrong to impose it at any age.

    I think kids don't think about the world in 'men and women' terms, so why should adult ways of thinking be imposed on children? Just let them be kids.
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #14 - April 22, 2010, 10:47 PM
    Quote from: billy on April 22, 2010, 10:37 PM
    Yeah, thats their primary idea, but behind that lies so much that is wrong to be imposing on a child.


    Yes, without doubt!
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #15 - April 22, 2010, 10:51 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 22, 2010, 09:36 PM
    I can see it being justified by the ummah on the grounds of paedophilia though yes


    Why should the victims adjust because of the criminals behaviour?
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #16 - April 22, 2010, 10:54 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 22, 2010, 10:06 PM
    I'm torn on this, partly because the poll is specifically about 5 years old. I think making your 5-year old girl wear Hijab is wicked but on the other hand, same can be said on ideological indoctrination.

    As for the Burka, hell yeah. Child protective services should get involved. And not only 5 year-olds; the Burka should be banned until you're an adult and even then, you're prohibited from covering your face in public buildings. Additionally, I would let private establishments reserve the right not to serve you.

    A lot of these girls who grow up to see men as seedy & sordid  grow up with an functional attitude to sex in later life.
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  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #17 - April 22, 2010, 10:55 PM
    Quote from: stardust on April 22, 2010, 10:46 PM
    I think it's wrong to be imposing the hijab at such a young age. I think it's wrong to impose it at any age.

    I think kids don't think about the world in 'men and women' terms, so why should adult ways of thinking be imposed on children? Just let them be kids.


    Exactly. It just takes on a really sad dimension when its imposed on children. Like I said, girls should be free to run, skip, play, and feel the breeze in their hair.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #18 - April 22, 2010, 11:04 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 22, 2010, 10:54 PM
    A lot of these girls who grow up to see men as seedy & sordid  grow up with an functional attitude to sex in later life.

    Did you mean "dysfunctional" ? If not, I don't understand.
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #19 - April 22, 2010, 11:19 PM
    I think he means functional in the sense of "Mechanical"
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #20 - April 22, 2010, 11:22 PM
    I think it's a disgusting practice that sexualises girls at an extremely young age, but I don't think we need to legislate against it. We may not like it, but it's only clothing, and parents should have the right to dress their kids as they see fit. If it's the full veil, I'd class it as child abuse and would want the authorities to step in, but I don't think we need an outright ban.
    You need to read this book.
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #21 - April 22, 2010, 11:29 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 22, 2010, 11:19 PM
    I think he means functional in the sense of "Mechanical"

    I see.
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #22 - April 22, 2010, 11:39 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 22, 2010, 10:54 PM
    A lot of these girls who grow up to see men as seedy & sordid  grow up with an functional attitude to sex in later life.

    The Victorians managed to instill similar attitudes in generations of women, without the aid of a piece of cloth. I think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that hijab is a largely symbolic piece of the puzzle in the greater problem of indoctrination. Even if it were to be banned in some alternate universe, secularists shouldn't get too excited because legislating against a single item of clothing (which merely exacerbates an underlying problem of repressive socialisation) sidesteps the real problem whilst feeding into Muslim victimhood complexes.

    ps. Also, I think it would only be fair to ban any clothing which might potentially sexualise young girls. I don't even want to think about cracking the lid on that pandora's box.
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #23 - April 23, 2010, 08:25 AM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 22, 2010, 11:04 PM
    Did you mean "dysfunctional" ? If not, I don't understand.

    A functional attitude to sex.  Their only reason behind having sex is to produce babies, as opposed to enjoying it  astaghfirullah!
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  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #24 - April 23, 2010, 08:36 AM
    Quote
    A functional attitude to sex.  Their only reason behind having sex is to produce babies, as opposed to enjoying it  astaghfirullah!

    That does depend on what you define "function" as.
    The function of sex in humans differs from other animals in that it also has a bonding function.  Part of that is recreational - from a purely reproductive perspective a number of human sex traits serve no purpose.  For example, human females have orgasms, human male penises are larger than needed, humans have sex during pregnancy, menstruation etc.
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #25 - April 23, 2010, 08:44 AM
    Quote from: hupla on April 23, 2010, 08:36 AM
    Part of that is recreational - from a purely reproductive perspective a number of human sex traits serve no purpose.

    I disagree, they all are there for a reason, and Darwin would confirm that..
    Quote
    For example, human females have orgasms,

    thats so they enjoy sex & have more babies, despite the 9 month and future effort that ensues as a result
    Quote
    human male penises are larger than needed,

    I thought they were a perfect fit
    Quote
    humans have sex during pregnancy, menstruation etc.

     
    thats just an unnecessary consequence of everything else being in working order, rather than proving something in its own right

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  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #26 - April 23, 2010, 08:52 AM
    I voted for a ban bacause:

    a) IMO, it's a human rights issue.  THese are children we're talking about.  Children do not view their bodies or the opposite sex in the sam way as adults do.  Depriving young girls of the freedome to have the sun on their heads and the wind in their hair is a human rights abuse.

    b) Islamically, women do not have to veil until they reach puberty.

    c) It will throw a spanner in the works of the Salafi mission here in the U.K. which seeks to indoctrinate girls with an extreme sense of shame from the moment they are born.

    Mainly though, I see it as an issue of children's right to just be children.

    I cringe every time I see a young girl in hijab.  I have noticed this is prevailant amongst the Somali community and it becoming more popular amongst Asian Muslims.  This is a disturbing trend.
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  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #27 - April 23, 2010, 09:17 AM
    Quote from: thinkfree on April 22, 2010, 11:39 PM


    ps. Also, I think it would only be fair to ban any clothing which might potentially sexualise young girls. I don't even want to think about cracking the lid on that pandora's box.


    Oh but we do:  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/7591205/Primark-padded-bikini-row-other-high-street-chains-caught-sexualising-children.html

    I think the hijab is an oppressive part of islam, so it should be a choice on the part of the person wearing it.

    Much like voting, it's a tough choice and one best left until someone is an adult, for that reason I would ban it.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #28 - April 23, 2010, 09:20 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 23, 2010, 08:25 AM
    A functional attitude to sex.  Their only reason behind having sex is to produce babies, as opposed to enjoying it  astaghfirullah!

    Well I agree but that's the least of many drawbacks of wearing Hijab from an early age.
  • Re: Should there be a law against parents making their 5 year olds wear hijab?
     Reply #29 - April 23, 2010, 10:31 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 23, 2010, 08:44 AM
    I disagree, they all are there for a reason, and Darwin would confirm that..thats so they enjoy sex & have more babies, despite the 9 month and future effort that ensues as a result

    No - it is for the purposes of bonding. Bonding in humans ensures that humans stay together to raise children. Human children have a particularly long childhood and are particularly helpless as babies.  There are reasons for this - e.g. because humans walk on 2 legs, human females have narrower hips than would be possible in a quadruped. This reduces the size of a baby's head (and therefore brain) that could be passed through the birth canal.

    The "Darwinist" bit is that having 2 parents care for the offspring increases the the likelihood of the offspring reproducing.

    Quote
    thats just an unnecessary consequence of everything else being in working order, rather than proving something in its own right

    Animals who only use sex for reproduction do not exhibit this behaviour. Animals such as dolphins exhibit a similar trait - where it is also used for social bonding.
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