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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 313615 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #120 - April 30, 2010, 09:31 AM

    Will it be possible to post the translations here too as well though, so we can comment on them if anything proves of interest?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #121 - April 30, 2010, 10:33 AM

    btw RIBS the second pdf file you posted a link to has the chapters mixed up. So just to be clear I will start translating: Chapter 2  The Methodology of Examining the Qur'an



  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #122 - April 30, 2010, 11:35 AM

    Uploaded the bigger PDF file to our server:
    My Ordeal With The Qur'an

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #123 - April 30, 2010, 01:04 PM

    Thanks, Hassan.

    Can everyone else translating also indicate which part(s) they're working on? I need to compile a list of what's being translated and by whom so that everything is clear.

    I'll translate some as soon as I'm done contacting people and compiling the list.

    Also, thanks Aziz. I've used the other file while contacting others though simply because it's much smaller.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #124 - April 30, 2010, 04:37 PM

    I analyzed the book with ReadIRIS 11 the Middle Eastern version and the results turned out much better than IsLame's (his was pretty much gibberish), but still not good enough to directly translate from. There's a LOT of cleanup required. I though you guys might want to use it.

    http://www.mediafire.com/?zdjw1jymiz2

    I heard about another software called Sakhr's Automatic Reader, I might try it out and post the results here if they were any better.

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #125 - April 30, 2010, 04:53 PM

    Thats good, how did your translation work out so much better?  

    Can you copy & paste the section that RIBS translated here (not sure which bit it was), and I will try & use it using google translate and compare how well it does against IraqiAtheists..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #126 - April 30, 2010, 05:13 PM

    Thanks for the effort Infidel  Afro

    It's still barely intelligible though. I think I will stick with the original PDF file. 
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #127 - April 30, 2010, 05:17 PM

    Thats good, how did your translation work out so much better?  


    Maybe you didn't have Arabic installed in your Windows (By in your Windows I don't mean being able to view it in web browsers, that's different).
    Can you copy & paste the section that RIBS translated here (not sure which bit it was), and I will try & use it using google translate and compare how well it does against IraqiAtheists..

    I doubt that'll be a good idea. The text itself is almost impossible to understand as it is (in Arabic), there are still loads of mistakes in spelling. I just thought it might help since I noticed people asking about an Arabic OCR.


    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #128 - April 30, 2010, 06:45 PM

    OK just just did the first bit of Ch 2 - I haven't checked it - so there will be some mistakes - I will check it later.

    I enjoyed reading it btw and the guy seems to know what he's talking about.

    I'm sorry I don't have a lot of time to spare on this right now but will try and do a bit more next week.

    Chapter 2

    The Methodology of Examining the Qur'an.

    There are two methods to understand the Qur'an. They are: The Methodology of Transmission, that gives precedence to revelation over reason, the unquestioning acceptance of the veracity of the text and the inability of reason to comprehend it's ultimate aims and objectives, and the Methodology of Reason that gives precedence to reason over revelation and it's ability to comprehend the truth without need for reference to the text. For text is the last concern of the mind that is in itself free, independent and believing.

    For that reason I will employ, in this book, the Methodology of Reason, that Descartes established at the beginning of the modern age even though he did not always abide by it and in particular in understanding religious texts but manoeuvred, twsited and distorted the neck of Reason to stop the rot that fills Revelation and that which Revelation contains of garbage that diseases minds.

    See how this great man compromises for the sake of (divine) text. Descartes wasn't the first to compromise, not at all, and he will not be the last apart from those who believe in Reason and act according to it and trust that which Reason obligates - and they are few indeed! For (divine) text has such influence and power, few can withstand.

    The fundamental principle of the methodology of Reason is impartiality and objectivity and to approach the research with a mind free from prejudice and bias "Bias is Sickness" as they say.  In this spirit we must resolutely  proceed in studying the Qur'an and treat it as we would any other scientific research and subject it to examination and analysis and skepticism and rejection and contestation because that is what will make our examination fruitful and profitable and make it of universal benefit.

    Applying the methodology of Reason to the Qur'an is in my view a dangerous and massive event that will shake the earth below the feet of blind faith (Taqleed)  and inertia, and putrid decay. And it something that must be done the for the most extreme cure is cauterization.

    The Qur'an has deep roots in our cultural composition and if these roots are shaken then composition changes to a different composition and destiny changes to a different destiny and people changes to a different people and as a consequence a new generation emerges that wasn't in the reckoning.

    For that reason the first thing I will confront you with in this discourse is that I doubt the Qur'an and in the god of the Qur'an and in the teachings of the Qur'an and in the miraculous nature of the Qur'an and in the sublime language of the Qur'an.

    I insist on doubt, I embrace it on principle. For doubts - as Al-Ghazali says - leads one to the truth. So one who does not doubt cannot look and one who does not look cannot see and one who cannot see will remain in blindness and error.

    This is my method in doing the work and this is how I start examining, thinking, reading and reflect until the circumstances lead me to something resembling certainty.  That is because what we call the miraculous nature of the Qur'an and infallibility of the Qur'an is really only like any human piece of work containing error as well as correctness.

    I'm aware of the cosequencies which I have arrived at but that won't deter me from proving them and broadcasting them and expressing my opinion freely. I know in advance that it will lead to mortal dangers and grave confrontations that I perhaps  don't need. But no! For truth deserves to be followed. I will take refuge in a mountain that will protect me from the water
    (Hassan: "This is a reference to Noah's son")  as far as I am able and if not then martyrdom is better than I suffer incapacity and weakness to declare what I believe in and what many others besides me believe in, though they are waiting for the spark of light to set alight after that many sparks of light and sparks of light light up the dark tunnel that we are living in. So is there any other way to escape from a path?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #129 - April 30, 2010, 07:11 PM

    btw phrases and idioms in any language often sound nonsensical when translated literally into another, so in a couple of instances I avoided a literal translation in favour of an word that I felt would better convey the intent.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #130 - April 30, 2010, 07:21 PM

    btw phrases and idioms in any language often sound nonsensical when translated literally into another, so in a couple of instances I avoided a literal translation in favour of an word that I felt would better convey the intent.

    Yes, that is always going to be a problem.  But it needs to be readable, so its a good idea for the English reader.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #131 - April 30, 2010, 07:30 PM

    I can attempt translating a chapter. which one you guys want me to work on ?

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #132 - April 30, 2010, 07:52 PM

    Very nicely done Hassan  Afro
    I will go over it again when I get back from the gym.


    I can attempt translating a chapter. which one you guys want me to work on ?

    Terrific. You can start with chapter 3 The Quran in the Doctrine of Muslims
    القرآن في عقيدة المسلمين
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #133 - April 30, 2010, 07:55 PM

    alright will work on that

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #134 - April 30, 2010, 08:09 PM

    Quote
    OK just just did the first bit of Ch 2 - I haven't checked it - so there will be some mistakes - I will check it later.


    well done Hassan, very professional indeed. I can never translate with such profeciency. Iraqi Atheist is also doing great... You guys rock. Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #135 - April 30, 2010, 08:12 PM

    So we have:

    Chapter 1 - Iraqi Atheist

    Chapter 2 - Hassan

    Chapter 3 - Kod

    I'll be working on the intro.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #136 - April 30, 2010, 08:14 PM

    It is a fantastic thing to see this collective effort between people who are only in contact over the internet giving fruit. It is old news in the software development area, but to see it working well in the context of literature is wonderful.

    I so wish I had worked harder on my Arabic, and also kept it up to date. It hurts not to be able to lend a hand when something this important is done.

    Hats off to you all!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #137 - April 30, 2010, 08:30 PM

    how many chapters are there?

    Does anybody know any arabic translators that could help?

    In addition there are a number on FFI & ArabicAtheist network..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #138 - April 30, 2010, 08:55 PM

    I already contacted FFI and Arab Atheists Network.

    The book has five chapters. They're long though, so I dunno if people would be able to translate entire chapters.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #139 - April 30, 2010, 08:56 PM

    any joy?  can you link us to the thread please?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #140 - April 30, 2010, 09:00 PM

    I didn't actually start a thread. Just sent the admin a message. Didn't think it was appropriate to join just to publicize the project -- seems like spam.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #141 - April 30, 2010, 09:19 PM

    Its not spam.  Its a genuine post about the same cause.  I think you should start a thread  - admin might not do anything about a pm.

    I can do it on FFI, but I have an account with FFI, but a poor reputation there.  As a new user you might have better luck.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #142 - April 30, 2010, 09:48 PM

    Alright. I'll work on it.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #143 - April 30, 2010, 10:07 PM

    how many chapters are there?


    There are 5 chapters, but each chapter has sub-chapters or sections. Here is an image of the Table of contents. From the 32 MB file.

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #144 - April 30, 2010, 10:12 PM

    Note that the first Chapter is called "My Journey From Faith to Doubt" an obvious mock-up of the well publicized Islamic book by Dr Mostafa Mahfooz "My Journey From Doubt to Faith". The table of content has Dr Mahfooz's title (I think by mistake). It is correct in the book's body. This is a clear indication that the book was never proof read nor officially published, hence the lable "Trial Edition".

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #145 - April 30, 2010, 10:24 PM

    btw while I was translating that bit I was reminded of the Mu'tazilites who championed Reason over Revelation - although they agreed Revelation was necessary they believed it was possible to know truth (in their case they meant God) through Reason alone.

    Also the author of the book peppers his language with Qur'anic and other references like when he said "And few are they" قليلا ما هم

    Also I don't think those who are translating need to worry too much about it for now - but a great many of his words and concepts need to be understood in the light of both modern and historical trends in Islamic thought and some have a technical meaning that is quite different from the literal - but that is something that we (or others) can clean up later. Best to just push ahead regardless and not worry about that now - the task is daunting enough as it is lol
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #146 - May 02, 2010, 06:30 PM

    Next bit of chapter two. Again not checked it through.

    btw I really like the way this guy writes, he is clearly someone who knows the Qur'an and Islam inside out!


    Chapter 2 (cont...)

    As for the reasons that led me to doubt in the Qur'an, they are because of of it's contradictions, generalisations , popmous rhetoric, and fecetious phrases that have no meaning. The grammatical and stylistic errors  that the classical scholars were at their wits end trying to find explanations. And others, both scientific and historical that I consider the Lord of the worlds above making. Just as the Qur'an is full of rhetorical explosive charges , verbal bombs, that create such an extreme uproar that ears almost become deaf but after deep analysis and despite what it contains of sweetness and charm and alluring beauty, it is pale, emaciated, little content, lacking substance,  bubbles in the air, radiating beams of light like fireworks, except that they soon extinguish and fall to the ground spent, leaving behind it pitch dark.

    It is as though it is a bolt of lightening glistening with fury - then fizzles out and it is as though it never shone
    (a line from a poem by Ibn Sina)

    Many of the prose of the masters of eloquence (classical literati) and even the doggrel of soothsayers is better - a thousand times - than many of the Qur'an verses that are of nonsensical language, stuffed full of fairy tales, that the Qur'anic commentators - and strangely, amongst them Mu'tazilites - became masters at dealing with and defending.

    There remains another matter and it isn't the last. It is the matter of the indictment of the Qur'an upon the Qur'an. For the narrative of the Qur'an is confused - and how confused - for how abundant is the confusion of the Qur'an. "The Almighty" said: "And if this was from other than Allah you would have found a lot of contradiction."

    The Qur'an has passed the guilty verdict upon itself! For that which it contains of contradictions goes beyond the limit of 'a lot'. Nay it is  the centre of every disparity and contradiction. The amount of disparities and contradictions in any book in the world has never reached the level of the Qur'an. Yet despite this they want us to believe that there is no disparity nor contradiction in the Qur'an. We must ignore the evidence to believe that which does not agree with reason nor with the evidence in the manner of "Believe Allah and disbelieve the stomach of your brother" (Reference to a hadith where someone came to the prophet complaining of his brothers stomach/bowel problem, the prophet said 'give him honey' - but the guy returned saying it has got worse, so the prophet said 'give him honey' this happened twice more - finally the prophet said 'believe Allah and disbelieve the stomach of your brother'.) and if you don't (ignore evidence and reason) then you will see and hear that which will not please you.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #147 - May 02, 2010, 07:50 PM

    Wow.  You have an awsome translation style Hassan. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #148 - May 02, 2010, 08:38 PM

    Wow.  You have an awsome translation style Hassan.  


    Thanks but it's probably more to do with the authors flamboyant style - besides Arabic tends to be a bit more wordy (and somewhat grandiose) than English - why use one adjective when 2, 3 4 or 5 will do lol  grin12

    Come to think of it the Qur'an may be at fault for that lol
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #149 - May 02, 2010, 08:55 PM


    Hassan, everyone, thanks for your continued effort with this.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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