Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #210 - May 10, 2010, 06:47 AM

There's no doubt there are nice parts, but there's also no doubt there are dull and clumsy parts. Once you lose the awe that faith inspires, you see the Qur'an for what it is - the work of a human being.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #211 - May 10, 2010, 06:57 AM

So which of your Lord's blessings do you then deny?

I loved surat al-rahman, and then i read it as a non-muslim, loved the first part, but then got disgruntled when reading the hell verses in that sura.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #212 - May 10, 2010, 07:00 AM

Yes I loved that Sura and it was my fathers favourite. I recited it at his funeral.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #213 - May 10, 2010, 07:03 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 10, 2010, 06:47 AM
There's no doubt there are nice parts, but there's also no doubt there are dull and clumsy parts. Once you lose the awe that faith inspires, you see the Qur'an for what it is - the work of a human being.

I like Abas AbulNoor's analysis of the Nice VS Bad parts of the quran. He says that in Muslim comunities, Schools, Media, Religious institutions, Dawwa centers, and individuals tend to recite only the good nice powerful parts and tend to ignore the worset parts. As a result, the whole Quran got diluted and you remember only the strong parts and you would get the impression that the Quran as a whole is an owesome strong miraculos book.

Now I would like to see someone who would collect the horrible parts with the grammer mistakes, discripencies, scientific mistakes and awful poetery and put them in one book and see if we look at the Quran the same way!

...
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #214 - May 10, 2010, 07:08 AM

I'll try to be that someone one day!

I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
Can't it be, can't it be mine

https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #215 - May 10, 2010, 07:10 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 10, 2010, 07:00 AM
Yes I loved that Sura and it was my fathers favourite. I recited it at his funeral.

:(
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #216 - May 10, 2010, 07:13 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 10, 2010, 06:47 AM
Once you lose the awe that faith inspires, you see the Qur'an for what it is - the work of a human being.

If I wrote my apostasy story again in one sentence, this would be it.

I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
Can't it be, can't it be mine

https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #217 - May 10, 2010, 07:19 AM

Yeah for me it was the abrogation parts, the obsession over Jews, Zaynab and Zayd, the Jinn and black magic. I had hard time accepting the change of qibla. I mean why wouldn't God know about it? And there were other similar abrogated parts in the Quran that only made sense from an apologetic sense. Don't remember them, I do remember reading about in Jeffery Lang, I had the same doubts and then saw the same questions in his book from other people. I read his explanations and at first thought OK that explains it, but a few days passed and I still had doubts. I finally went online and I'm not sure what I searched for but I ended up on Hassan's blog. And well, here I am now
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #218 - May 10, 2010, 08:25 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 10, 2010, 06:47 AM
Once you lose the awe that faith inspires, you see the Qur'an for what it is - the work of a human being.

Quote from: MoeAlharbi on May 10, 2010, 07:13 AM
If I wrote my apostasy story again in one sentence, this would be it.

I dont think I ever felt that awe, was I missing something? I only 'did' Islam because I felt I had to, and felt I wasnt programmed to work in any other way, if you know what I mean

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #219 - May 10, 2010, 08:38 AM

No you weren't, I would've been like you if I haven't gone back to Saudi when I was 12. Before that, Islam only meant praying and fasting, and I didn't really think about my religion that much.

I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
Can't it be, can't it be mine

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #220 - May 10, 2010, 08:38 AM

what the fuck am I doing at 4:38 in the morning?

I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
Can't it be, can't it be mine

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #221 - May 10, 2010, 09:00 AM

Quote from: IsLame on May 10, 2010, 08:25 AM
I dont think I ever felt that awe, was I missing something? I only 'did' Islam because I felt I had to, and felt I wasnt programmed to work in any other way, if you know what I mean

Like Hassan said. The key element here is faith. If looked through those eyes, the quran will feel that way to the believer. Again. like with all religions, one may ask whether "faith" itself is a satisfactory presumption. It really is a double-edged sword. Either you have faith to begin with, in which case you will have made the ascent and accepted it as true. Or you would have lined it up alongside all the other claim and examined it rationally to arrive at your conclusion.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #222 - May 10, 2010, 09:16 AM

So were you in awe, or did you feel like me, that Islam was your preordained destiny. Its what I was, and questioning it as simply not on the table for discussion, because its who I was.

I almost didnt care if it made sense to me, as long as others could see the sense in it. My primary focus seemed to be stopping others from thinking less of muslims.

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #223 - May 10, 2010, 09:26 AM

During my final few days as a Muslim all alone in a room just after I finished submitting my MPhil thesis, the power of faith had seemingly vanished and I felt as if I were stuck some place that felt free and scary at the same time.

It was during that period I remember talking to myself (which I do a lot when I need some time alone distraught over something) and saying something like that despite the destruction of the façade of faith, I was 'happy being a Shia Muslim'.....

Lol...I was probably still getting over the last days of denial I had about my last remnants of faith. I was troubled but I strictly NEVER told my troubles to anyone. It was my own personal fight, and I kept it hidden from whatever friends and family I had.

Apart from my family and close relatives, who are either concerned or trying to be indifferent from me, none of my close friends from Uni years know that I am an apostate. Though I get the feeling that I will have to eventually tell someone someday.

Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #224 - May 10, 2010, 09:30 AM

You havent told your close university friends in the UK, yet you have told you family in Pakistan Why ever not?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #225 - May 10, 2010, 09:34 AM

Quote from: IsLame on May 10, 2010, 09:16 AM
So were you in awe, or did you feel like me, that Islam was your preordained destiny. Its what I was, and questioning it as simply not on the table for discussion, because its who I was.

Islame, the issue for me ran much deeper than the details within the Quran itself. You have to remember that the three abrahamic faiths rest on the presumption of God. Whether the Quran/Torah/Bible was his word came way after the presumption. If I had doubts about God, then what use was trying to convince myself that the Quran is the word of the very being about which I am having doubts!

Quote
I almost didnt care if it made sense to me, as long as others could see the sense in it. My primary focus seemed to be stopping others from thinking less of muslims.

You are getting warmer, the key element again is faith. Once that is stripped away, then the arguments don't make sense. What should be looked at is this, is there anyway that the Quran, Sira or Hadith collection can be looked at purely through secular explanations that are coherent? The other thing which helped me was the word epistemology. It's the theory of knowledge, what it is and how we get it. If you are that way inclined, I would suggest that you read up on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #226 - May 10, 2010, 09:44 AM

Read the bit about epistemology but dont get you/fail to see the connection?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #227 - May 10, 2010, 09:50 AM

Quote from: IsLame on May 10, 2010, 09:30 AM
You havent told your close university friends in the UK, yet you have told you family in Pakistan Why ever not?

Mainly because I didnt know when and how to tell them. By the time I had reconciled to my atheism I was already busy sorting my stuff out to leave for home in what felt like not more than a week after I had admitted to what I had now become. I didnt want to tell the now-Salafi buddy of mine back then because I didnt want to. The other fellow I was really close to had some of his own girlfriend problems and exams to worry about and I thought it was best to not disclose it to him.

And ever since I came back, my contact with him has been VERY limited and infrequent. He is busy with job in London and comes online almost never. But I get the feeling if and when I meet him, I will tell him about my transition over the last 18 months.

My family, since I live with them and interact with them, I felt I had to say something. Its weird, that most people are scared what their parents would say but I was the first to come out to them....months before I even decided to join CEM last year.

Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #228 - May 10, 2010, 09:53 AM

I think what Omar is saying is that how do we know what we know? Since Omar had problems with faith, belief in God I think it reflected on how do we know scripture is true? If there is no Divinity then how in the world can scripture be divine?

I had the same issue when I read about epistemology in Uni, it led me to the belief that all we have aquired are human constructs, that includes hard sciences but especially soft sciences. There was no certain truth in this sense. Since I was a theist I had to believe there was an outside truth, God's truth. Whatever was outside our human construct had to be true. I think if I hadn't grown up with faith I would have included faith in this idea of mine. At the time I had to concede that religion was true and not a human construct. Everything else though was truth as defined by humans.
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #229 - May 10, 2010, 10:01 AM

I have heard back from Maryam Namazie and other members of the CEMB management committee who are all very supportive of what we are doing and would like us to draft a short overview of the project to put up on the CEMB website.

RIBS could you do this perhaps? It doesn't have to be long?
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #230 - May 10, 2010, 10:05 AM

Ribs if you need help let me know
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #231 - May 10, 2010, 10:06 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 10, 2010, 10:01 AM
I have heard back from Maryam Namazie and other members of the CEMB management committee who are all very supportive of what we are doing and would like us to draft a short overview of the project to put up on the CEMB website.

RIBS could you do this perhaps? It doesn't have to be long?

Yes sure Hass, but you will have to proof read it for me. I am still not very confident of my English. Alternatevily, we can borrow from IsLames post few weeks ago when we first started this project. He did similar thing, I think!

...
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #232 - May 10, 2010, 10:21 AM

Quote from: RIBS on May 10, 2010, 10:06 AM
Yes sure Hass, but you will have to proof read it for me. I am still not very confident of my English. Alternatevily, we can borrow from IsLames post few weeks ago when we first started this project. He did similar thing, I think!

By all means use what has been written by others then post it here or PM it to me and I will proof read it and send it Maryam - thanks
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #233 - May 10, 2010, 10:26 AM

RIBS - your English is fine, sounds like somebody form the UK. In fact had I not known, I would have assumed you were from here!

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #234 - May 10, 2010, 11:13 AM

Quote from: IsLame on May 10, 2010, 10:26 AM
RIBS - your English is fine, sounds like somebody form the UK. In fact had I not known, I would have assumed you were from here!

Thanks for the compliment, I stayed in London for 6 years. That could be a reason. LOL

Although for over 11 years I have not spoken a single word in English, but thanks to this forum, my English has improved a little

...
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #235 - May 11, 2010, 12:16 PM

I don't know if anyone already posted something on the Arab Atheist Forum about our project - but I have just made a post saying we are translating this and if anyone can help to register at CEMB forum.

This is the link to my post:

http://www.el7ad.com/smf/index.php?topic=109343.0
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #236 - May 11, 2010, 12:55 PM

Lol...your avatar being mirrored to look at the right-left orientation of Arabic

Great going Super Hass

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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #237 - May 11, 2010, 12:56 PM

Quote from: atheist.pk on May 11, 2010, 12:55 PM
Lol...your avatar being mirrored to look at the right-left orientation of Arabic

lol... well I turned it around before uploading it as I wanted it facing the posts
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #238 - May 11, 2010, 12:59 PM

btw the more I read of this book the more I realise what an massively important thing we are doing - thanks RIBS for bringing this to our attention!
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Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
Reply #239 - May 11, 2010, 01:08 PM

Yeah, RIBS, thanks mate

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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