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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 314160 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #360 - May 24, 2010, 03:36 PM

    Yeah good idea, Debunker and Abuyunis should translate a chapter each. Afro


    me no arab. i have to google and use online arabic translators to find the meanings of words i want to know - pretty pathetic, lol. but i agree with what debunker said on another thread - to keep it more 'professional' it should be translated by someone who not only is an expert in arabic language (since language within Qura'an is a major topic of the work) but also someone who has a deeper understanding of what the original author is talking about, so that it can be translated in the correct context and if we're even luckier, with relevant references and commentary - as Hassan has already done so brilliantly.

    it also in general makes much more sense if only one author translates the whole thing so that the style of translation appears more consistent and natural and flows better.

    sorry Hassan.......all members on here should buy you a drink





    (of orange juice)

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #361 - May 24, 2010, 03:41 PM

    Without doubt Hassan is "fit for purpose" and will do the best job, but he cant do it all by himself - its an unfair expectation to put on him. 

    We stand the risk of it never reaching completion, like so many projects before it and need to compromise.

    We need more translators.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #362 - May 24, 2010, 04:17 PM




    That's not a bad looking goat!

    *sniffs beard*

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #363 - May 24, 2010, 04:41 PM

    Can somebody photoshop it, stick a muslim hat & give it a henna-dyed beard.  Just wondering if it can get anymore Mullah like that it already looks!

    If you dont, then I'm afraid your going to be tortured with another of my Microsofit cut & paint jobs

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #364 - May 24, 2010, 05:29 PM

    me no arab. i have to google and use online arabic translators to find the meanings of words i want to know - pretty pathetic, lol. but i agree with what debunker said on another thread - to keep it more 'professional' it should be translated by someone who not only is an expert in arabic language (since language within Qura'an is a major topic of the work) but also someone who has a deeper understanding of what the original author is talking about, so that it can be translated in the correct context and if we're even luckier, with relevant references and commentary - as Hassan has already done so brilliantly.

    it also in general makes much more sense if only one author translates the whole thing so that the style of translation appears more consistent and natural and flows better.

    sorry Hassan.......all members on here should buy you a drink





    (of orange juice)


    Hassan is a true scholar! I could see this after reading the translations... I have read some translations of other books before, they suck!

    The reason I want Hassan to do the whole thing is that it's really unfair to spoil his hard fine work by combining laughable efforts at translation with it! What a waste!

    Please guys, even if Hassan is nice enough to pretend that your efforts are meaningful, please don't spoil his work by participating.

    If you want to help, you could proof-read Hassan's work for typos and such...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #365 - May 24, 2010, 05:39 PM


    Amazing stuff!

    This line Hassan:

    Quote
    In the same way as Ibn al Rawandi used the Brahmins as a vehicle by which to disguise his views


    Is he referring to the Hindu brahmins or is that term being used in the general sense of 'religious elite'?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #366 - May 24, 2010, 05:55 PM

    Sorry just realised I missed a bit - will update it and re-pots it in a bit!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #367 - May 24, 2010, 06:39 PM

    3. Abu Bakr Al Razi (d. 311 H / 923 AD)

    Al Razi is the second of the two who, without rival, courageously barged their way over the red line. Many before them hovered close but never quite hit the mark. Either because of their fear or lack of resources. As for al Razi and before him, Ibn al Rawandi, they are the indisputable masters of the field. Indeed all those who attempted to reply to them could not match them. Not at all! They were not on their level. They were dwarfs that cannot be compared to either of them. No way! No way!

    Each one was a revolutionary, rebellious visionary, who revealed the concealed (thoughts), brought out the pent-up (feelings) and freed the suppressed (minds). They thought the thoughts that were not thought about. No! That were not allowed to be thought about. Each one of them would not accept anything less than making the most holy of holies the object of their criticism, and delving into it to uncover it's flaws, and disgrace it's myths and illusions. Exposing what it contains of threats, claims and hearsay on account of which man is crushed, and paralyzes his abilities and enslaves him to supernatural powers and invisible entities. To rob and intimidate him like an unsheathed sword hanging over his head, not allowing him any room to move to see what is beyond his nose or know what is going on around him. Thus he must live his life, hostage to the fears, anxieties, whisperings and misgivings that come between him and achieving his best potential. Destroying all his ambitions of self realization and personal freedom.

    Al Razi was a philosopher, doctor and alchemist of the highest order just as he was the pillar of the dissident and heretical movement during his age and the following centuries.

    If there was a difference between him and Ibn al Rawandi then it was in the degree of depth and widening of the details and (his) ability to generate new ideas from old ones, but both believed and relied upon Reason and both base their judgments and conclusions upon Reason.  In their opinion, Reason was to the yardstick to measure everything.

    If Ibn al Rawandi, in his heretical and irreligious meditations, worked within a similar atmosphere to that of the Muslim theologians, then: "Al Razi attacked and criticised the shortcomings of Religion from the perspective of Philosophy." (27)

    In the same way as Ibn al Rawandi used the Brahmins as a vehicle by which to disguise his views, and to place on their tongues what was really in his own mind regarding the invalidation of prophethood and virtues of Reason, al Razi also did likewise, in that he attributes to it (Reason) not just the (ability to arrive at) ethical behaviour, as Ibn al Rawandi did, but attributes to it (knowledge) of divine matters also. For he said, indeed we: "Through it (Reason) arrive at knowledge of the Creator, Mighty & Glorified is He." (28)

    This proves that there is no justification for Prophethood as long as Reason is able to lead us to all that is ethical and unethical. In any case Ibn al Rawandi : "Moved in Theological and Religious field of study, where as al Razi moved in the Scietific field." (29)

    In summary, there is no doubt that Ibn al Rawandi blazed the trail, and opened the way, but al Razi watered it and boarded it with palm trees and beautified it with flowers and scented herbs and raised upon it a lofty edifice.

    Al Razi praised Reason "using language which surpasses that used by the great rationalists of all ages, even in the modern age," as Abd al Rahman confirmed in his aforementioned book.

    By virtue of Reason, man is in no need of Prophethood, nor Religion, nor all the Divine Books and as a consequence; nor the Qur'an. By virtue of Reason and Reason alone, we can know good from bad and truth from falsehood. There is no authority other than the authority of Reason, nor any belief other than belief in Reason... and if this is it's magnitude then we must never minimise it's value, nor reduce it's status, and never make it a subject when it is the master.

    Prophethood was al Razi's overriding concern, he demolished it on the basis that Reason has no need for it. He said: "From whence did you make it necessary that God singled out a people for Prophethood instead of another? Preferring them over (other) people? Giving them evidences and forcing others to be in need of them (in need of these people)? And from whence did you allow in the wisdom of the Wise that he chooses that for them and raises some over others confirming enmity between them, increasing wars and with that annihilate people?" (30)

    We are not so concerned here that al Razi heaps criticism and abuse on prophethood & prophets, and elaborates in great detail on that. What concerns us is his criticism of Religions, so we can arrive, in that way, at his opinion on the Qur'an. For that reason we see him turning his attention to "Revealed" Religions and the books they brought which they ascribe divinity to. He analyses them without bias, favouritism, or discrimination. For all of them are of equal importance. (31)

    For the disbelief of al Razi was not aimed at a specific religion without another, in other words it was not aimed at Islam alone. That highlights the objectivity of al Razi and the soundness of his opinion. For all religions were subject to attack and abuse. For they do not say the same things. They contradict one another despite the fact they claim to come from the same source and (claim) they are free from defect and lies. But how can that be the case when they contain absurdities and contradictions.

    Here the adversary poses the question: If religions are as you say, then how can we explain the adherence of the masses to them?

    al Razi responds to this objection by (saying) that the followers of (the various) religions have taken the religion from their (religious) leaders by way of imitation. They  are prevented from questioning or scrutinizing the foundations, and tales are related to them that discourage them from questioning these foundations. Whoever contravenes that is accused of Kufr (disbelief). If the (religious) leaders are asked to prove the truth of what they say they fly into a rage and spill the blood of one who demands that of them.

    Then came (a period of) long familiarity, the passing of time, acquaintance and deception of the people by the goat-bearded (clergy) who stand at the front of religious gatherings and shriek out lies and gibberish while around them the weak-minded men, women and children (listen) until it all roots itself deeply within the people and becomes a predisposition and habitual. (32)

    Then al Razi returns to his charge of contradictions in the "Holy" books as proof of their falsehood. For the contradiction of religions leads to contradiction of revealed books that brought them. He begins with the Torah and the Qur'an and the prophetic Hadith and what they contain of anthropomorphic and human-like qualities (of God). He mentions what is in the Torah of putting the fat on the fire so that the Lord can smell it's scent. Also how it depicts an image of an old man with white hair and beard. This human-like and anthropomorphic description contradicts impassive and impervious nature of God to things like smells etc... All this announces that God is constructed, fabricated, reacting to things like the rest of creation.

    Likewise Al Razi attacks Christianity and its claim of the existence of an uncreated ancient being by the side of God; the Messiah his son, which leads to associating a partner with God. Furthermore how can we reconcile his saying that he came to fulfill the the Torah with his abolishing its laws and changing it's rulings? Strangely, during his criticisms of Christianity, he did not mention - in the texts we have - the passages in the Qur'an about corruption of the Gospels. (33)

    Anthropomorphism and contradictions are not only limited to Judaism and Christianity but also envelop the the sayings of the prophet and the Qur'an... and that is exemplified by what is related from the prophet when he said" "I saw my Lord in the best of forms. He put his hand on my shoulders until I felt the cold of his fingertips on my chest." (34) and his saying "Beside the throne by the shoulder of Israfeel, and he will be groaning the groan of a young camel being saddled." (35) (NB: Israfeel is the angel who blows the trumpet twice on the day of judgment. Once to destroy everything and a second time to bring humans back to life and summon them for judgment.)

    It's also obvious that many of the verses of the Qur'an demonstrate anthropomorphism and no-one can deny that apart from the arrogant. For example His saying, mighty and glorified is he: "The Compassionate One is firmly established on the Throne." (20:5) and He also said: "And eight (angels) will carry the Throne of your Lord above them on that Day" (69:17) and His saying: "Those who carry the Throne and those around him..." (40:7) So how can this his make sense, be sound, correct in light of the fact that God is completely and utterly free from all the attributes of the profane as made clear in His - Most High - saying: "There is nothing whatever like unto Him..." (42.11)

    Likewise how can we reconcile verses about predestination with others about free-will? And perhaps al Razi borrowed these questions from the books of Theological Discourse as Abd al Rahman Badawi noted. (36)

    As for the view that these verses require "Esoteric Interpretation" (Ta'wil) in other words taking them to have a hidden meaning that is not the plain meaning of the words, that was of no interest to al Razi, he rejected it utterly and paid no regard to Ta'wil, not taking it seriously at all. Because Ta'wil in his opinion and the opinion of his like, was just interpolation and deceitful pretense - or in my own expression: "patching up" - the intent of which was to rescue the text, however one can, and give it an acceptable meaning. For al Razi and his like approached religions as it appeared plainly in it's texts and not as is it is (claimed to be) wrapped up in hidden meanings. (37)

    Al Razi criticised the Qur'an also on the basis of what it said that contradicted Christianity and Judaism. He said: "Indeed the Qur'an contradicts that which the Jews and Christians believe regarding the death of the Messiah - upon him be peace. Since the Jews and Christians say the Messiah was killed and crucified, but the Qur'an says he was not killed and not crucified and that God raised him up to himself." (38)

    Thus does al Razi use religions and divine books to undermine each other to arrive at the result that they are all false! Because the contradictions between them declares their falsehood in total as long as they claim that they come from the same divine source.

    After this attack on all religions Al Razi comments also, saying "Indeed, by God, we are amazed at what you say that the Qur'an is a miracle when it is full of contradictions. It is the narration of ancient myths, it has no benefit nor is it proof of anything." (39)

    And this is a view that is completely sound, for in the Qur'an are conundrums and riddles - ambiguities and mysteries, that the greatest scholars of Tafseer until today, haven't been able to arrive at any conclusive conclusions on. Despite all the ink they have spilled, and the efforts they spent in meaningless summations, tedious disputations, and nonsensical prattle with the sole obsession of rescuing a text that cannot be rescued except through sophistry, interpolation, prevarication, nonsense  and legends. (40)

    Just as the Qur'an challenged Mankind and Jinn to bring the like of it, likewise al Razi challenged the Arab Scholars of eloquence to bring the like of that which is in the book of "Elements" (by Euclid) or Almagest (by Ptolemy) and others. Al Razi says: "Indeed we demand from you the like of that which you claim we are not able to do," (41) and with this he threw the burden of proof back to the adversary. In other words with this challenge he showed that the proof itself must lie with the adversary (making the claim), since it is not within the ability of man to bring the same that another man has brought, no matter how great is his ability in copying and perfecting the art of imitation.

    Furthermore indeed these books and their like are more useful and of greater benefit than the Qur'an and all the divine books, because they contain knowledge that benefits people in their livelihoods and situations in the real world, while the Torah, Gospels and Qur'an benefit nothing. And if one must discuss Miraculousness and Proof then these useful books are more deserving of having such things ascribed to them. In this respect, al Razi says: "By Allah, if he wanted a book to be a Proof the books like the "Elements" or "Almagest" that lead to understanding of the movement of the stars and planets, or the books of logic, or the books of medicine that is of benefit to the body, would be more deserving of being (called) Proof than those (divine books) that are of no benefit or harm." (42) Meaning the Qur'an and it's like.

    In any case I am not the first to present criticism of the Qur'an. I cannot claim that honour. No! Nor will I be the last, for indeed my work here has precedence, but it differs from that which preceded it in respect of the method of treatment, and in respect of the level and terms and fields of knowledge. But it is the duty of the pioneer to always acknowledge those who blazed the trail and opened the way before them. As for the right of the one who went before upon the one who comes after, it is that no-one will deny him other than the arrogant fool. For if the one who comes after had not found assistance and clarification from the one who was before, things would not go right for him and he could not complete his intent, and his efforts would be futile and his aim confounded and thus is the blade blunted and the mind become dull and aspiration fails. "And those who went before are the foremost. They are the ones who will be drawn near." (56:10-11) (NB: There is of course irony in that quote from Qur'an.)

    ___________________________

    (27) Quote from the previous reference. p 127.

    (28) Quote from the previous reference. p 203.

    (29) Quote from the previous reference. p 217.

    (30) Quote from the previous reference. p 205.

    (31) Quote from the previous reference. p 208-211.

    (32) Quote from the previous reference. p 211-212.

    (33) Quote from the previous reference. p 213-214.

    (34) Quote from the previous reference. p 214. (الثَنْدَوَة is the flesh between the nipples.)

    (35) Quote from the previous reference. p 214.

    (36) Quote from the previous reference. p 218.

    (37) Quote from the previous reference. p 214-215.

    (38) Quote from the previous reference. p 215.

    (39) Quote from the previous reference. p 216 and 218 in two different versions.

    (40) Whoever wishes to compose an approximate picture - even if it is not precise -  of these prattlers and nonsense-talkers, then let him listen to the recordings of Sheikh Mutawali Sha'rawi, who's voice reverberates all over Arab radio. He explains the Qur'an with a sharp tongue that erupts like a flood that he uses to delight the masses and ignorant amongst the scholars, while the idiots sitting around him roar out the words: "Allah! Allah!" or "Allah is great! Allah is great!" and grow in zeal and impulsiveness. If they weren't in the mosque in a solemn religious gathering they would fill the world with shouts and clapping as they do at public rallies and I have complete confidence that they don't understand a thing that's going on. This is an example that is emulated by the ignorant amongst the scholars and the religious teachers and preachers and Imams of mosques and the rest of this type.  He (Sha'rawi) is regarded by his followers and admirers, to be amongst the greatest (scholars) of Tafseer in this day and age - even a unique phenomenon amongst the phenomena of this age. He is even considered by his pupils to be amongst those who the prophet alluded to in the famous hadith: "Indeed God will send to this Ummah (Nation) at the beginning of every 100 years he who will renew/reestablish their religion for them!"

    (41) Quote from the previous reference, p 218.

    (42) Quote from the previous reference, p 219.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #368 - May 24, 2010, 06:41 PM

    Good job. You crazy mofo. Cheesy

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #369 - May 24, 2010, 06:45 PM

    Amazing stuff!

    This line Hassan:

    Is he referring to the Hindu brahmins or is that term being used in the general sense of 'religious elite'?




    No it is the Hindu Brahmins - Ibn Rawandi used them as an example of people whose utterances all Muslims would agree are delusions and should not be taken on faith but rejected using reason.

    In that way Ibn Rawandi was saying, 'hey, well you know what... let's look closer to home - know anyone else who came out with utterances that people take on faith? Well let's use Reason here as well' Wink
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #370 - May 24, 2010, 06:47 PM

    Good job. You crazy mofo. Cheesy


    Well i know you appreciate what a pain in the backside translating can be, Aziz as you often translate from German - but although it's a pain it's kinda fun too and I really love this book  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #371 - May 24, 2010, 06:50 PM

    btw for those not used to the style of Arabic may find the text a little flowery, with grandiose descriptions, affectations and somewhat pompous style of saying things. But that's Arabic - at least that's what Arabic became.

    I remember Mustafa Aqqad (who made the Message) saying that when he made both an Arabic and English version of the film - using two completely different sets of actors - he found that the Arabic version overran the English version by a long way and had a hard time cutting it down. (It still overran the English version though.)
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #372 - May 24, 2010, 06:52 PM

    No it is the Hindu Brahmins - Ibn Rawandi used them as an example of people whose utterances all Muslims would agree are delusions and should not be taken on faith but rejected using reason.

    In that way Ibn Rawandi was saying, 'hey, well you know what... let's look closer to home - know anyone else who came out with utterances that people take on faith? Well let's use Reason here as well' Wink


    Very interesting - this book is amazing. His strategy was very clever. I am learning so much!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #373 - May 24, 2010, 06:59 PM

    I wonder what the muslim world would have looked like had we let our scholars speak freely? I wonder what the Arab world would have been like? And the middle-east?

    :(

    It's a crying shame.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #374 - May 24, 2010, 07:03 PM

    (40) Whoever wishes to compose an approximate picture - even if it is not precise -  of these prattlers and nonsense-talkers, then let him listen to the recordings of Sheikh Mutawali Sha'rawi, who's voice reverberates all over Arab radio. He explains the Qur'an with a sharp tongue that erupts like a flood that he uses to delight the masses and ignorant amongst the scholars, while the idiots sitting around him roar out the words: "Allah! Allah!" or "Allah is great! Allah is great!" and grow in zeal and impulsiveness. If they weren't in the mosque in a solemn religious gathering they would fill the world with shouts and clapping as they do at public rallies and I have complete confidence that they don't understand a thing that's going on. This is an example that is emulated by the ignorant amongst the scholars and the religious teachers and preachers and Imams of mosques and the rest of this type.  He (Sha'rawi) is regarded by his followers and admirers, to be amongst the greatest (scholars) of Tafseer in this day and age - even a unique phenomenon amongst the phenomena of this age. He is even considered by his pupils to be amongst those who the prophet alluded to in the famous hadith: "Indeed God will send to this Ummah (Nation) at the beginning of every 100 years he who will renew/reestablish their religion for them!"


    This footnote really made me laugh as back in the late 70s and early 80s I was a huge fan of Sha'rawi - he was everywhere in Egypt - had a prime-time TV slot and was on the radio and even blared out of Taxis. It's true he had a style that Egyptians loved but was really all bluster and drama - he stopped and looked at the audience "Kidda walla mish kidda?" and they had to affirm - he mixed his style so common people would understand.

    btw this also places the book in the 70s (or possibly 60s - not sure how far Sha'rawi goes back) - I'm assuming the author wrote the footnotes - though they could have been added later.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #375 - May 24, 2010, 07:05 PM

    Grin

    Looking back Hassan @ Sha'rawi would you agree with the description given by the author?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #376 - May 24, 2010, 07:16 PM

    Grin

    Looking back Hassan @ Sha'rawi would you agree with the description given by the author?


    Yes absolutely - 100% - but I had just turned 20 then and full of zeal and enthusiasm and swept along by cries of "Allah! Allah! Ya Gada'"  Cheesy
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #377 - May 24, 2010, 07:19 PM

    I remember listening to Abdul Basit and you'd hear all the Egyptians in the background Grin
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #378 - May 24, 2010, 07:36 PM

    They get really emotional - coming from England I always felt a little awkward.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #379 - May 24, 2010, 07:41 PM

    This footnote really made me laugh as back in the late 70s and early 80s I was a huge fan of Sha'rawi - he was everywhere in Egypt - had a prime-time TV slot and was on the radio and even blared out of Taxis. It's true he had a style that Egyptians loved but was really all bluster and drama - he stopped and looked at the audience "Kidda walla mish kidda?" and they had to affirm - he mixed his style so common people would understand.

    btw this also places the book in the 70s (or possibly 60s - not sure how far Sha'rawi goes back) - I'm assuming the author wrote the footnotes - though they could have been added later.


    Cheesy that's so true!

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #380 - May 24, 2010, 07:50 PM

    Hassan you might find this video funny!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXk0NzX021c&feature=youtube_gdata

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #381 - May 24, 2010, 07:59 PM

    Al Razi says: "Indeed we demand from you the like of that which you claim we are not able to do," (41) and with this he threw the burden of proof back to the adversary. In other words with this challenge he showed that the proof itself must lie with the adversary (making the claim), since it is not within the ability of man to bring the same that another man has brought, no matter how great is his ability in copying and perfecting the art of imitation.


    @Aziz I saw you already uploaded it onto wiki - but I made this change after you did that.

    Could correct the wiki?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #382 - May 24, 2010, 08:13 PM

    @Aziz I saw you already uploaded it onto wiki - but I made this change after you did that.

    Could correct the wiki?


    Done.
    (Btw, I don't think you mean the wiki. I guess you're talking about my repository at github.com.)

    Note to everybody: All files related to this project can be found here:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/docs/My_Ordeal_With_The_Quran/

    Updated PDF file: My_Ordeal_With_The_Quran-en-2010.5.24-v2.pdf
    Improvements: nicer paragraph spacing; linkified footnotes and ToC items; PDF bookmarks.
    Known issues: faulty page numbering.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #383 - May 24, 2010, 08:29 PM

    Important: If somebody wants to proofread the text, please download the latest PDF file. I already corrected many mistakes here and there.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #384 - May 24, 2010, 08:37 PM

    Great work Hassan.

    Like Debunker said. You have to not only be fluent in both Arabic and English but also to be very familiar with the Quran, Tafseer and Arabic poetry. In addition you have to have at least some basic knowledge with English literature and poetry.

    I feel very ashamed that I haven't translated anything since the author's biography specially that I have no job or study at the moment.

    I promise to give it a go and start with chapter 1. I will then post it so that we compare my work with yours. I'm certain yours is superior but I would like some honest feedback to see if my contribution to this project is worthwhile. If it's not I will stick with proof-reading.

    Once again, thanks for your tremendous effort.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #385 - May 24, 2010, 08:44 PM

    btw it's interesting to note that al Razi who was at the forefront of Islamic philosophy, science and medicine - and was well aware of all the works of the other Muslims scholars as well as the Greek scholars of the past - and of course well aware of the claims of the Qur'an - clearly regarded Ptolemy's work in the book Almagest (arabicised as it was translated and used by the Arabs) as being very sound - which it was for the time.

    But it of course put forward a geocentric view of the universe. The Earth in the middle - and everything rotating about the earth.

    Of course I already know modern claims to scientific miracles are nonsense - and always did even when I was a Muslim - but for those Muslims who claim this, then here is a question for them.

    If Al Razi and all the other Muslim scientists and astronomers had absolutely no problem with the Geocentric view of the universe - despite intimate knowledge of the Qur'an.

    Then how can one claim the Qur'an rejects the geocentric model?

    If these guys couldn't see what so many modern idiots who can barely string two Arabic words together can so "plainly" see - then there is something wrong - no?

    lol Wink
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #386 - May 24, 2010, 08:49 PM

    Great work Hassan.

    Like Debunker said. You have to not only be fluent in both Arabic and English but also to be very familiar with the Quran, Tafseer and Arabic poetry. In addition you have to have at least some basic knowledge with English literature and poetry.

    I feel very ashamed that I haven't translated anything since the author's biography specially that I have no job or study at the moment.

    I promise to give it a go and start with chapter 1. I will then post it so that we compare my work with yours. I'm certain yours is superior but I would like some honest feedback to see if my contribution to this project is worthwhile. If it's not I will stick with proof-reading.

    Once again, thanks for your tremendous effort.



    No worries.

    I guess the years I wasted on a silly old book and the never ending wrangling over meaningless minutiae paid off.

    Well my life has been worth it after all lol  grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #387 - May 24, 2010, 08:50 PM

    Question: Can we standardise the spelling of the Arabic article in English? I see too many variations: "al Kindi", "al Razi", "Al Razi", "al-’Ijaaz" etc.

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #388 - May 24, 2010, 08:54 PM

    Shall we say: al-Razi

    etc...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #389 - May 24, 2010, 08:56 PM

    Shall we say: al-Razi
    etc...

    Everywhere just "al-" without exceptions? I can correct all instances. No problem. Smiley

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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    CEMB-Chat
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