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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 314104 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #690 - June 02, 2010, 01:42 PM

    1) Shakespeare's work was not miraculous.  Despite this flaw, his work is appreciated across the globe after it has been translated into hundreds of languages

    2) The Quran is miraculous.  Yet the transation is mostly appreciated by Muslims only.  If there was something miraculous in the language then it would be possible to explain & rationlise what that beauty was and how it manifested itself.  Here you say is it only not missing on non-Arabs, but Arabs also  Huh? The only people who could appreciate it were people around him?  Even people around him thought there were simply "stories of the old".

    Do you really believe there is some hidden poetry inside there  Huh?


    See my answer to therationalizer.

    Quote
    Why not?

    because I don't want to.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #691 - June 02, 2010, 01:43 PM

    Islame was an Ahmadi derelict


    are you serious?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #692 - June 02, 2010, 01:44 PM

    lol no im just kidding, i think he was a sunni muslim not sure what madhab though
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #693 - June 02, 2010, 01:45 PM

    yep, that sounds exactly like the same language I hear in Indian movies..

    by the way, you come from a Shia background, Islame?

    no, sunni - btw what makes you say Shia?

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #694 - June 02, 2010, 01:47 PM

    I repeat: appreciation of language, music, art, is largely subjective. That's the nature of these things. You cannot materialize *experience*.


    Agreeing something is well written is not the same as enjoying it.  I do believe it is possible to write text which everyone believes is well written even if it is not interesting.  For example "I am thirty six years old" is well written albeit completely uninteresting.

    I already explained... I'm convinced in the majority of verses, I'm confused by some of them and deeply disturbed by slavery... i look at slavery and think: this is definitely wrong... I look at numerous other verses and I feel as if God is speaking to me... so I decided it was foolish to discredit the whole book, just because I'm disturbed by a few verses in it.  


    Thanks for answering.

    It seems that you do what others seem to do.  They either justify them by pretending to themself they mean something else, or if they are unable/unwilling to do that they ignore them.

    You obviously believe very strongly in the Quran.
    2:2 - This is the Book whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn

    I'd have thought you'd come quite distinctly within this category.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #695 - June 02, 2010, 01:48 PM

    I already explained... I'm convinced in the majority of verses, I'm confused by some of them and deeply disturbed by slavery... i look at slavery and think: this is definitely wrong... I look at numerous other verses and I feel as if God is speaking to me... so I decided it was foolish to discredit the whole book, just because I'm disturbed by a few verses in it. 

    tbh I didnt find the slavery verses that bad, as a muslim or as an ex-muslim, particularly as M encouraged the releasing of slaves.  Which ones are you talking about, right hand possesseth ones?

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #696 - June 02, 2010, 01:54 PM

    tbh I didnt find the slavery verses that bad, as a muslim or as an ex-muslim, particularly as M encouraged the releasing of slaves.  Which ones are you talking about, right hand possesseth ones?


    He didn't only encourage people to release slaves, through his conquests he also encouraged people to take slaves.  The only places I have seen references to releasing slaves were in relation to people doing something wrong, so releasing their slave seemed to be a punishment to them rather than a pious act. 

    Disclaimer: That was only an impression I got, I haven't spent time researching it yet so if you know of exceptions I'd be grateful to see them as it will save me time looking for them Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #697 - June 02, 2010, 01:58 PM

    @ Islame

    Quote
    no, sunni - btw what makes you say Shia?


    the video you posted.

    Quote
    tbh I didnt find the slavery verses that bad, as a muslim or as an ex-muslim, particularly as M encouraged the releasing of slaves.  Which ones are you talking about, right hand possesseth ones?


    right hand possess is just another word for slave... no, what disturbs most is the idea of *sex* slaves. I can understand enslaving men in battle... after all, releasing them is a really stupid idea at the time... but enslaving women, even if they were used by the enemy as a tool in battle is just too much.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #698 - June 02, 2010, 02:02 PM

    He didn't only encourage people to release slaves, through his conquests he also encouraged people to take slaves.  The only places I have seen references to releasing slaves were in relation to people doing something wrong, so releasing their slave seemed to be a punishment to them rather than a pious act.  

    Disclaimer: That was only an impression I got, I haven't spent time researching it yet so if you know of exceptions I'd be grateful to see them as it will save me time looking for them Smiley


    no.. actually slaves are part of the people who deserve to receive alms (to free themselves)...

    and no... there are no verses "encouraging" slavery.. sanctioning it, yes... the only thing that was encouraged was emancipation (through charity)... and there was also enforced emancipation (through atonement for sin and paying alms).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #699 - June 02, 2010, 02:04 PM

    Disclaimer: That was only an impression I got, I haven't spent time researching it yet so if you know of exceptions I'd be grateful to see them as it will save me time looking for them Smiley

    No, thats all I have seen in the Quran too, but I could have missed something.  I think hadith go into more detail though.

    the video you posted.

    I see.  It was just a random youtube video I got after typing urdu..

    Quote
    right hand possess is just another word for slave... no, what disturbs most is the idea of *sex* slaves. I can understand enslaving men in battle... after all, releasing them is a really stupid idea at the time... but enslaving women, even if they were used by the enemy as a tool in battle is just too much.

    In that case just say it makes no sense to you yet.  It is as valid a stance as any  Afro

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #700 - June 02, 2010, 02:07 PM

    no.. actually slaves are part of the people who deserve to receive alms (to free themselves)...


    So slaves could just claim freedom?  I'm surely misunderstanding you, because they would just express their desire to be free.

    and no... there are no verses "encouraging" slavery.. sanctioning it, yes... the only thing that was encouraged was emancipation (through charity)... and there was also enforced emancipation (through atonement for sin and paying alms).


    No, I don't think there are verses encouraging the taking of slaves, I was referring to Muhammad's history where slaves were taken.

    Can you tell me where encouraged emancipation is?

    BTW, I appreciate your open responses on this subject.  I can't stand people who outright deny what they know for a fact is in their own minds Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #701 - June 02, 2010, 02:11 PM

    Quote
    So slaves could just claim freedom?  I'm surely misunderstanding you, because they would just express their desire to be free.



    Slaves, in Islam, can buy their freedom... and assuming they couldn't, if alms/charity are partly devoted to freeing slaves, then yes, of course they been freed.

    Quote
    Can you tell me where encouraged emancipation is?


    Sure.. I made a big post about this before.. I'll look it up and provide the link.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #702 - June 02, 2010, 02:13 PM

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8240.msg206760#msg206760

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #703 - June 02, 2010, 02:18 PM

    Slaves, in Islam, can buy their freedom...


    Yes, I saw those more as hostages available for ransom.

    and assuming they couldn't, if alms/charity are partly devoted to freeing slaves, then yes, of course they been freed.


    So the ones that could not pay could be paid for out of the Muslim charity pot and then freed?  In which case it wasn't an encouragement to free the slaves it was a payoff from a community charity fund?  Considering probably all of the slaves would have wanted freedom I wonder how they decided which slaves got freed first when there were limited funds?

    Other than freedom granted for ransom, punishment for sin, and being paid off from the community charity fund, are you aware of any places where people are just encouraged to release their slaves for no reason other than that they should be free?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #704 - June 02, 2010, 02:27 PM

    @ rationalizer

    see the link above.. .in the Quran, it's clear that the emancipation of slaves was considered a charitable act, encouraged, even part of the alms devoted to it, but sanctioned nevertheless.

    Again, the bit that I can't reconcile is the *sex* slaves.


    Quote
    So the ones that could not pay could be paid for out of the Muslim charity pot and then freed?

     
    Charity/Alms pot, yes OR you can go out and buy a slave and set him free.. thus specifying where your charity goes to.

    Quote
    In which case it wasn't an encouragement to free the slaves it was a payoff from a community charity fund?

    What does charity mean? it means it''s encouraged.

    Quote
    Considering probably all of the slaves would have wanted freedom I wonder how they decided which slaves got freed first when there were limited funds?

    How would I know... but perhaps people could start with their own slaves.


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #705 - June 02, 2010, 02:33 PM

    see the link above.. .in the Quran, it's clear that the emancipation of slaves was considered a charitable act, encouraged, even part of the alms devoted to it, but sanctioned nevertheless.


    We are seeing it from opposite angles.  You are seeing it from the point of view of the slave owner deciding to release a slave, whereas I am seeing it from the point of view of the slave wanting to be freed.

    So it seems that the slave owner could release a slave if he wanted to, and even receive money from the community charity pot as a reward for releasing them?  If so this is not an encouragement to make people free, it's a way of making some money.  Do you see what I mean?

    If my motive is cash then I have no problem with enslaving people in the future, if my motive is the wishes of my fellow human then I won't want to enslave people in the future.


    Again, the bit that I can't reconcile is the *sex* slaves.


    But doesn't it only say you MAY have sex with them?  It doesn't say the slaves have no choice does it?  You see, I am objective Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #706 - June 02, 2010, 02:56 PM

    Quote
    We are seeing it from opposite angles.  You are seeing it from the point of view of the slave owner deciding to release a slave, whereas I am seeing it from the point of view of the slave wanting to be freed.


    All slaves want to be free obviously... but the point is:

    1- ALL men must pay alms, part of the Alms goes to freeing slaves... which slaves to be freed first, I don't know.
    2- Charity is optional and can go to freeing slaves as well.
    3- atonement for sins is a must and one way to atone for sins is freeing slaves.

    Quote
    So it seems that the slave owner could release a slave if he wanted to, and even receive money from the community charity pot as a reward for releasing them?

     

    Like I said, a slave has the right to buy his freedom... (that's one way alms/charity can help).

    Quote
    If so this is not an encouragement to make people free, it's a way of making some money.  Do you see what I mean?


    No. what you're saying is absurd.... who's making money here? The owner of the slaves is simply getting recompensated... and the emancipator is losing money.

    Quote
    If my motive is cash then I have no problem with enslaving people in the future, if my motive is the wishes of my fellow human then I won't want to enslave people in the future.


    See above!

    Quote
    But doesn't it only say you MAY have sex with them?  It doesn't say the slaves have no choice does it?  You see, I am objective.


    Well, you're right... but by default, a slave has no choice, do they? Although, come to think of it, since according to Hadith, a slave has the right to work to free himself, then maybe slaves have more freedom than i thought?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #707 - June 02, 2010, 03:06 PM

    All slaves want to be free obviously... but the point is:

    1- ALL men must pay alms, part of the Alms goes to freeing slaves... which slaves to be freed first, I don't know.
    2- Charity is optional and can go to freeing slaves as well.
    3- atonement for sins is a must and one way to atone for sins is freeing slaves.

    Like I said, a slave has the right to buy his freedom... (that's one way alms/charity can help).


    Right, so it's the slave's choice?  This doesn't make sense to me because all of the slaves would want freedom.  So you either end up where nobody has any slaves, or where there isn't enough money for everyone to be freed and there is no longer any money left to feed orphans etc.

    That's why I thought it was the owner who made the decision to free the slave.  The slave surely cannot be freed without the owner's consent?

     
    No. what you're saying is absurd.... who's making money here? The owner of the slaves is simply getting recompensated... and the emancipator is losing money.


    I see the alms like tax.  I pay X% of my income in tax so I am used to not having that money.  If I release a slave I get a tax rebate, right?  If that is the case then I dismiss this as encouragement to release slaves for the reasons I gave above.  The purpose is money rather than the welfare of the human, which means it doesn't discourage the slave owner from acquiring more slaves in the future.

    Well, you're right... but by default, a slave has no choice, do they? Although, come to think of it, since according to Hadith, a slave has the right to work to free himself, then maybe slaves have more freedom than i thought?


    You say a slave has no choice, but I don't know if they did or not.  The Quran says that sex with slaves was lawful, I don't recall it saying whether or not they can refuse your sexual desires.  Is there a Quran rule which states whether or not *women* can refuse sex?  Unless otherwise stated I would assume that the slave would qualify for the rights of a woman.

    But that depends on whether the verse say "woman" or "wife". If it says "woman" then I assume slaves had the right to refuse, if it says "wife" the I assume the slaves had no right to refuse.  If it doesn't mention any woman's right to refuse then I have no idea at all, unless of course it says you can fuck a woman whenever you want whether she likes it or not Smiley

    Does that sound like a fair hypothesis?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #708 - June 02, 2010, 03:14 PM

    @ rational

    1- you did not read the link.
    2- you're re-asking questions i already answered.

    one last time:
    Quote
    I see the alms like tax.  I pay X% of my income in tax so I am used to not having that money.  If I release a slave I get a tax rebate, right? 

     
    No. wrong... if you release a slave as a charity, you get nothing. If you release a slave as a way of giving the alms, then you just gave alms.

    Quote
    If that is the case then I dismiss this as encouragement to release slaves for the reasons I gave above.  The purpose is money rather than the welfare of the human, which means it doesn't discourage the slave owner from acquiring more slaves in the future.


    you're driving me crazy.. I'm ending this right now!

    As for the sex slaves, it doesn't say whether you should take their consent or not, nor does it say anything about the consent of wives.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #709 - June 02, 2010, 03:27 PM

    1- you did not read the link.


    I read it all

    No. wrong... if you release a slave as a charity, you get nothing. If you release a slave as a way of giving the alms, then you just gave alms.


    I think I had already said that I was talking about the case in which you give a slave as alms.  In other words, instead of paying tax you release a slave, right?  What I am saying is that this is still the choice of the slave owner, the slave gets no choice at all?


    As for the sex slaves, it doesn't say whether you should take their consent or not, nor does it say anything about the consent of wives.


    Nor "women" or "slaves"?  I presume it doesn't say anything about taking sex without consent either?  So the Quran basically says it is lawful to have sex with slaves, but doesn't make it clear if it is necessary to obtain their consent first?  That's unfortunate as it leaves it unclear.

    The way I see it is this.  Muhammad made it up.  His views of what God would be like are very similar to yours.  But when it came to issues such as giving up your slaves Muhammad's God gave into human pressure.  The only reason for this that I can see is that asking too much of the people would cause objections, and the authoritarian was incapable of asserting its authority.

    They can be made to give up alcohol immediately.
    They can give up their gods immediately which they believed could make their lives a misery and even kill them.
    But they couldn't be expected to give up slavery?

    It looks to me as though Muhammad saw the releasing of slaves to be a nice act, but also thought it was perfectly fine to enslave people.  It's more than telling how Allah's will was so in tune to what people of the 7th century thought was acceptable and yet so out of tune with the people of the 21st century.

    I'm sorry if I frustrated you, it was unintentional.  I think we just find it difficult to understand each other's points at times.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #710 - June 02, 2010, 03:34 PM

    ok, I guess i had enough of you for one week  wacko

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #711 - June 04, 2010, 03:17 PM

    Like Soren said, beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.

    By the way, is this recitation in Urdu?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8guP5et4yw

    Its either Sanskrit or Prakrit....and no it doesnt sound the same as Urdu/Hindi at all. Maybe a few words borrowed here and there but its not the same at all.

    Urdu and Hindi are phonetically 95% the same just that Urdu prefers more Persian-Arabic words while Hindi prefers more Sanskrit words but terms can easily be interchanged.

    Punjabi is very similar to Urdu and Hindi though.

    This is a better version of an Urdu song:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nREzSIbNhk

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #712 - June 04, 2010, 03:36 PM

    The video is in Sanskrit. Vedas are always recited in Sanskrit.

    One thing I never quite understood is why Hindi and Urdu and considered separate languages. Wouldn't it be better to say that the two are simply dialects of the same language? Hindi and Urdu speakers can pretty much understand each other, although they can't read the other person's language.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #713 - June 04, 2010, 04:53 PM

    The video is in Sanskrit. Vedas are always recited in Sanskrit.

    One thing I never quite understood is why Hindi and Urdu and considered separate languages. Wouldn't it be better to say that the two are simply dialects of the same language? Hindi and Urdu speakers can pretty much understand each other, although they can't read the other person's language.

    Because there are deeper issues are play here (religious identity)

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #714 - June 04, 2010, 06:05 PM

    Because there are deeper issues are play here (religious identity)


    The heading says "My Ordeal With Quran"  so let me take back the thread to "My Ordeal With Quran"., that is My Ordeal

    Quote
    008.017
    YUSUFALI: It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).

    PICKTHAL: Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.

    SHAKIR: So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.


    Yes.. Yes.. I kill but it was not me  actually Allah Who slew them.,  Allah is behind all those killings..

    I don't know that is what the Quran says., So I have problem with Quran.  that is My Ordeal.  I literally looked 20 translations as I am not an Arabic guy with Arabic background.. All say  the same..

    Yes if I read verses like that, I have a problem.. A serious problem..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #715 - June 04, 2010, 07:46 PM

    If God wanted to slay them, he either not have created them in the first place or done the dirty work himself.   finmad

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #716 - June 05, 2010, 03:20 PM

    Chapter 4 (cont...)

    Part 3 - The Eloquence of the Qur'an (cont...)

    Despite all this they want us to believe that the Qur'an; "Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy" (4:82) but the patching-up of the Wafflers is a guarantor by which every conflict is reconciled and the reply to every objection and bestows on the Qur'an a fluent, harmonious unity free from defects so they can produce in front of them: "An Arabic Qur'an without any crookedness" (39:28).

    We shall discuss all that in the widest scope possible as well as detailing, clarifying and illustrating as the situation permits so we can open covered hearts and deaf ears and remove the veil over eyes (NB: Ironic references to Qur'an) that cannot see other than what they want to see, and let loose the tongues so that they do not say anything about the truth except the truth and express nothing but the truth.

    In this regard, and whatever our verdict on the Qur'an, it does contain bouquets of masterpieces and marvels that the fair-minded - regardless of where their loyalties lie or what their beliefs and convictions are - cannot fail to be moved by them and bow in prostration. But is the whole Qur'an like that? No and a thousand times no! For indeed these verses and those that surround them are spectrums of light and rings of radiance that captivate the mind, heart and emotions. But because of the ink they caused to be shed, pens they aroused, energies they let loose and passions they stirred - I say because of spotlights they were put under - these verses hid another portion of verses from sight and cast them into the dark. As a result we only see that which catches the sight and are blind to anything else. But if we remain in this state - whether we realise it or not - we will pass the same verdict on them both and how foolish is that! Thus we would put the dull verses in the same category as the glittering verses and be oblivious to the huge gap between them simply because they share the same name; Qur'an. Just like one who puts mud ( الثرى ) in the same category as the Pleiades stars cluster  ( الثريا ) because they share he same root ( ث ر ي ).

    So never think that the whole Qur'an is of the same quality, cast in the mold of these outstanding verses that we presented in the previous pages - certainly not. These are instances of pearls and gems being found amongst earth and pebbles. Like neighbouring pieces of land with a sprinkling of grape vines here and there while in other places grow poisonous shrubs, gum trees, flowers and date palms between sand dunes that are scattered with weeds, cane stalks, and harmful herbs. Are these the same, for example?

    This is what the Qur'an is like. It is - as we mentioned before and as we shall see in more detail - not on one level of quality, brilliance or splendour. but contains the poor as well as the rich and all that lies in-between that. Such a mixture of things that it is very difficult for the mind to see how to reconcile them. But they are reconciled by force and coercion and when concoction and waffling (of the mufassirin) gets involved in sewing together the tears, mending the cracks and plugging the holes, some of them easy to accomplish and some so intractable they require huge effort and resources and some are enigmatic mysteries as though the mind was fettered by them. We shall remove from you your covering, oh reader, so that your vision tomorrow will be sharp! (NB: Ref to Qur'an 50:22) and tomorrow is near for he who envisages it! (NB: Ref to a line of poetry that has become a saying).

    1. Look at this wonderful pearl where the Qur'an describes uncovering the secrets of the wrong-doers and exposing their affair in front of God who makes their body-parts speak on the day of Judgment. So that they bear witness against them about what they have committed of sins that they thought were been brushed under the carpet, never to return but they were recorded and able to articulate the truth:

    "On the Day that the enemies of Allah will be gathered together to the Fire, they will be marched in ranks. At length, when they reach the (Fire), their ears and their eyes and their skins testify against them as to what they used to do. They will say to their skins: "Why are you bearing witness against us?" They will say: "Allah who makes everything speak has made us speak: He created you for the first time, and to Him you are returned. You did not hide yourselves lest your ears and your eyes and your skins should bear witness against you, but you thought that Allah did not know much of what you did. But this thought of yours which you did entertain concerning your Lord, has brought you to destruction, and (now) have you become of those utterly lost!" (41:19-23)

    So if this is a "divine" masterpiece is of inimitable style, the like of which cannot be achieved - and that is true, then is it possible to achieve the same as this "human" masterpiece by al-Jahiz? (781-868) which he states in his unique and delightful style, in his book; "Squaring the Circle", which overflows with style, eloquence, clarity and illumination:

    "Nay why do their sayings concern you or or their dispute weigh upon you? Those of understanding and who speak from knowledge, know that the abundance of your width detracts from the height of your stature and what shows of your width absorbs what shows of your height. Although they differ about your height, they agree about your width, and since they spitefully concede to you a part and unjustly deny from you a part, you have gained what they conceded, while you stand by your claim regarding what they didn't concede. I swear that the eyes make mistakes and the senses lie and there is no conclusive verdict other than that given by intellect and no true enlightenment except by way of the mind since it is the rein for the limbs and the measure for the senses." (43)

    One cannot mention the princes of speech without mentioning Abu Hayyan al-Tawhidi (923–1023). For he wrote comprehensive works, and on his tongue wisdoms gushed forth and deep meanings swarmed, yet his age deprived him the acclaim he deserved. I present to you here this text which is from the beginning  of (his book) "Enjoyment and Conviviality" in which he describes the world, in the most briefest of ways, so full of meaning and in concise expressions as though he is describing his burning soul and faltering fortune:

    "Indeed this fleeting (world) is beloved, it's luxury sought after, and a place amongst those of high council is solicited by any means and manner. For this world is sweet and verdant, delectable and lush. He who is timid, his task will be arduous, while he who's pressing is passionate, his coming and going will advance continually, while he who is held captive by his expectations, his hardship will be long and his misfortune great, while he who's greed and desire are inflamed, his impotence and deficiency will be exposed." (44)

    Badi' al-Zaman (al-Hamadani) (967 - 1007) was intricate just as al-Jahiz and al-Tawhidi were (NB: Their work had layers of meaning), he was a master at delighting (the reader), words in his hands were obedient and compliant, redolent with fragrance and aroma, diffusing the scent of perfume. A great deal of his work has reached us that one never finishes contemplating. They are no less excellent and eloquent than many of the verses of the "Reminder of the Wise" (The Qur'an). But many of the readers take it (the writings of al-Hamadani) for granted. Let us read this beautiful artistic piece where he describes his hunger during a year of famine in Baghdad, and how all his hopes of obtaining food evaporated, and he ended up with nothing but pain and grief. He uses the (fictional character) 'Isa ibn Hisham to relate it:

    "'Isa ibn Hisham related to us and said: I was in Baghdad the year of famine, and so I approached a group, huddled like the stars of Pleiades, in order to ask something of them. Amongst them was a youth with a lisp in his tongue. He asked: 'What do you want?' (NB: Qur'anic ref to 20:95). I replied: 'There are two conditions in which a man prospers not; that of a beggar wearied by hunger, and that of an exile to whom return is impossible.' The boy then said: 'Which of the two gaps would you like me to fill first?' I answered: 'Hunger, for it has become extreme with me.' He said: 'What would you say to a loaf of bread on a clean table, picked herbs with sour vinegar, fine almonds with strong mustard, roast meat ranged on a skewer with a little salt, brought to you now by one who will not procrastinate with promises nor torture you with waiting, and who will afterwards follow it up with golden goblets of grape? Is that preferable to you, or a large company, full cups, variety of dessert, spread carpets, brilliant lights, and a skilful minstrel with the eye and neck of a gazelle? 'If you don't want this or that, then what do you say about some fresh meat, river fish, fried aubergines, the wine of Qutrubbul, freshly harvested apples, a soft bed on a high apartment, opposite a flowing river, a bubbling fountain, and a garden with streams in it?' 'Isa ibn Hisham related: So I said: 'I am the slave of all three (options you have given me).' The boy said: 'And so am I their servant, if only we had them!!' I said: 'May God not bless you! You have revived desires which despair had killed, then you snatched away the object of its relish?!"

    Can you see this captivating beauty that the Qur'an does not have a monopoly over? Al-Jahiz, al-Tawhidi, Badi' al-Zaman and many other greats of prose and poetry such as Ibn Muqaffa', Abu Nuwas, Abu al-'Ala al-Ma'arri from the classical literati and al-Mazini, al-Rafi'i, al-Aqqad, and Ta Ha Hussein from the moderns - they and their like have left us masterpieces that are as good as - if not better, at times, than some of the verses of the Qur'an. They left us a massive legacy full of profound wisdoms and clear signs (NB: Ref to the words for 'clear verses' in the Qur'an). But which one of them claimed that he is speaking under heavenly inspiration or that he encompasses the secrets of the Divine?



    (43) "Squaring the Circle", edited by Charles Pellat, p 5

    (44) "Enjoyment and Conviviality", edited by Ahmad Amin and Ahmad al-Zayn, Cairo, p 13.


    (To be cont...)
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #717 - June 05, 2010, 06:21 PM

    Hassan I love you and I love this author. And truly, truly  I say to you Islam has ruined Arab culture. We could have been great.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #718 - June 05, 2010, 07:10 PM

    I read it all

    I think I had already said that I was talking about the case in which you give a slave as alms.  In other words, instead of paying tax you release a slave, right?  What I am saying is that this is still the choice of the slave owner, the slave gets no choice at all?


    Nor "women" or "slaves"?  I presume it doesn't say anything about taking sex without consent either?  So the Quran basically says it is lawful to have sex with slaves, but doesn't make it clear if it is necessary to obtain their consent first?  That's unfortunate as it leaves it unclear.


    The Quran is clear on having sex with slavewomans. If muslim did not read hadith, they would have followed Allahs word in Quran, " Dont force your slavemaidens into prostitution against their will"

    Hadith on this topic is very crazy, and legalize rape with slavewomens, that has just lost their husband in war.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #719 - June 05, 2010, 07:20 PM

    Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" 

    Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."

    070.029
    PICKTHAL: And those who preserve their chastity

    070.030
    PICKTHAL: Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy;

    Qur'an (4:24) - PICKTHAL: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

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