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 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1050 - June 29, 2010, 06:25 PM
    Okay. I see it. Like I said it's right below the escape key.
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1051 - June 29, 2010, 06:36 PM
    Actually my keyboard is a bit different - but I have found them

    The key next to shift = ````````

    and "option" + "E" = ´´´´´´´´´´

     Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1052 - June 29, 2010, 06:40 PM
     dance
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1053 - June 29, 2010, 06:50 PM
    Quote
    Throughout fourteen centuries not one voice was raised to rectify this defect, just as in India not one voice was raised in protest over bathing in the holy river at religious festivals or seeking healing, even though it's a filthy river that increases the sickness of the sick. Likewise no voice was raised in complaint against the cows who are let free to come and go as they please, grazing in the streets and public places, wandering between houses and shops without anyone being allowed to touch them, in a country where the starving see his livestock assets destroyed in front of him but silently does nothing. This despite that my comparison with Hindus is not a precise one.


    LOL all religions  Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1054 - June 29, 2010, 06:52 PM
    Quote
    Yes the Qur'an was once a a revolution, but, like all revolutions, it is a revolution for a limited time only.


    Abuyonus will love this part of the book  Afro
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1055 - June 29, 2010, 06:55 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 29, 2010, 10:15 AM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an.

    Clarity of speech comes from clarity of vision and clear vision is formulated by lucid thought and expression. But ambiguous expression only leads to ambiguous meaning. Many verses in the Qur'an are the constructed of ambiguous material and so it doesn't appeal to the mind or become clear to the intellect. Enigmas that strut about in front of you without you knowing what they are about. Words transformed into unintelligible cryptic messages that baffle the mind. They opened the door wide to folk tales, mythical fantasies, Isra'iliyat (NB: Tales originating from Judeo-Christian traditions), the study of secret knowledge and all manner of weird meanings, and strange accounts. Every commentator who dived in to discover their meaning came out with a precious pearl of wisdom!!

    1. The first of these puzzles are the the Abbreviated Letters (al-Muqatta`at) at the beginning of some of the Suras.

    Alif, Lam, Mim. (The Cow, The Family of 'Imran, the Spider, the Romans, Luqman, the Prostration.)

    Alif, Lam, Mim, Sad. (the Heights)

    Alif, Lam, Ra'. (Jonah, Hud, Joseph, Abraham, The Rocky Tract,)

    Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra'. ( Thunder)

    Kaf, Ha', Ya', 'Ain, Sad. (Mary)

    Ta', Ha'. (Ta Ha)

    Ta', Sin, Mim. (The Poets, The Stories.)

    Ta', Sin. (The Ant.)

    Ya', Sin (Yasin)

    Sad (Sad)

    Ha', Mim, 'Ain, Sin, Qaf. (The Consultation)

    Faa Qaf (Qaf)

    Ha', Mim. (Forgiver, Expounded, the Ornaments, the Smoke, the Crouching, The Winding Sand-Tracts.)

    Nun. (the Pen.)

    What are these puzzles? Is this part of the Qur'an 'whose verses have been expounded in a clear Arabic tongue' ? (Qur'anic ref). Where is the clarity, Oh people? Is it in the conundrums? Has eloquence in the Qur'an been transformed into a collection of letters that don't mean anything to us, or perhaps He got confused - May He be Glorified - and thought that we are like Him and encompass all things with knowledge as if we are Him and He is us? Is miraculousness to baffle people? One of the most important conditions of eloquence is that people must understand what you are saying. Perhaps the one who revealed this has an opposite opinion to that? Enlighten me, please, if you can?



    Fixed Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1056 - June 29, 2010, 07:21 PM
     Cheesy
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1057 - June 29, 2010, 10:21 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 29, 2010, 04:42 PM
    You know I said a similar thing quite a while ago.


    Any revolution is flawed. Even the American revolution (which was not a totalitarian movement like the Islamic one) was still limited by the ideas of its founders. It is precisely for that reason that amendments to the constitution were made possible.

    The Islamic revolution doesn't really have such a redeeming feature. How hard is it now to jettison the laws of the medieval shariah? I can't imagine some new madhhab coming along and abrogating a load of the stuff in the four schools.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1058 - July 01, 2010, 04:33 PM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an. (cont...)

    2. The matter doesn't stop there. For if the ambiguity here surrounds letters, we shall see, shortly, that it surrounds the "clear" verses also. Indeed I have tried to read certain verses and just pure reading is quite pleasurable, but it is also a burden. For the words come in a constant stream that don't relate to each other, but instead hop over one another and clash with each other. Converging and diverging, corrsponding and contrasting and contradicting, halting and then resuming.

    Narratives that end abruptly, and then look! Here they are suddenly returning! Wonders of expression and manipulation of words that draws before your eyes what looks like an elaborate embroidery covered in ambiguity.  The words are able to create from letters something that more closely resembles an intangible vision and visions have no clear boundaries. For the rhetorical art has the power to turn the narrative into an ambigious melody that has no precise significance but is able to take you out of reality and it's burdens and horrors and transport you to the garden of Eden.

    This is the power of words. For words can be insidious, devious and multi-faceted. They thrill with their interplay, interaction, and clashing... They are an overflowing flood, either you drown in them or either you swim like a proficient swimmer who saves himself by detaching himself from the dominating power of words.

    In my opinion, this is what explains the strange effect of the Qur'an on the minds and souls of the general populace. Nay, even the minds of the elite and the elite of the elite, and upon the scholars and literati and poets and philosophers and their like who cannot swim well. But instead come out with - on a daily basis - scientific discoveries that the Qur'an was the first to discover fourteen centuries ago on the tongue of an illiterate man who cannot read or write and grew up in a remote desert far from the centres of learning and civilisation. This is what seduces the general populace and increases their faith in the miraculousness of the Qur'an.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1059 - July 01, 2010, 04:45 PM
    Quote
    Hassan: 1. The first of these puzzles are the the Abbreviated Letters (al-Muqatta`at) at the beginning of some of the Suras.

    Alif, Lam, Mim. (The Cow, The Family of 'Imran, the Spider, the Romans, Luqman, the Prostration.)

    Alif, Lam, Mim, Sad. (the Heights)

    Alif, Lam, Ra'. (Jonah, Hud, Joseph, Abraham, The Rocky Tract,)

    Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra'. ( Thunder)

    Kaf, Ha', Ya', 'Ain, Sad. (Mary)

    Hassan: Ta', Ha'. (Ta Ha)

    Ta', Sin, Mim. (The Poets, The Stories.)

    Ta', Sin. (The Ant.)

    Ya', Sin (Yasin)

    Sad (Sad)

    Ha', Mim, 'Ain, Sin, Qaf. (The Consultation)

    Faa Qaf (Qaf)

    Ha', Mim. (Forgiver, Expounded, the Ornaments, the Smoke, the Crouching, The Winding Sand-Tracts.)

    Nun. (the Pen.)

    Quote from: RIBS on June 29, 2010, 06:55 PM

    Fixed Cheesy


    Just a comment., for a naive reader  the names of Surahs that are in brackets  appears as if they are the meaning for those meaningless sounds.  It would be nice just to add Chapter number in the brackets.
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1060 - July 02, 2010, 10:29 PM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an. (cont...)

    3. It is strange that the Qur'an often launches into unnecessary details that have no meaning, while it lacks details in other places where they should be clarified without hesitation. Take this verse as an example:

    And mention in the Book, Moses, he was one purified, and he was a messenger, a prophet.
    And we called him from the right side of the Mount, and drew him near to Us, in communion.
    (19:51-52)

    I can't understand any meaning for the word "right" in connection to an expansive mountain terrain that has no distinguishing marks and everything in it could be described as on the right or the left of something else. For direction is subjective, it has no objective meaning but is relative. It's meaning is defined in relation to something else.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1061 - July 04, 2010, 04:02 PM
    Maybe Muhammad just had a weird fixation with the right side of things... hence why he always used his right hand to do anything, or why he would always start doing things from the right side, like coming his hair.

    It's funny, but sometimes you can see little bits of Muhammad's character that overlap in the Qur'an and ahadith.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1062 - July 06, 2010, 09:12 AM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an. (cont...)

    4. Likewise when the Qur'an presents the story of the People of the Cave and their faithful dog, we see it listing details to a ridiculous extent, despite not settling on a specific number for them. So it says - just as we human beings would when unable to specify something precisely - "Some say seven and some say eight" even though God is the knower of the unseen!

    5. In this respect it hasn't escaped me to mention also these verses - the puzzles related from Moses after he descended from the Mount and found his people worshiping the calf. He lost his temper and grabbed his poor brother, Harun's neck:

    "So Moses returned to his people in a state of anger and sorrow. He said: O my people! did not your Lord promise you a goodly promise: did then the time seem long to you, or did you wish that displeasure from your Lord should be due to you, so that you broke (your) promise to me?

    They said: We did not break (our) promise to you of our own accord, but we were made to bear the burdens of the ornaments of the people, then we threw them, and thus did the Samiri suggest.

    So he brought forth for them a calf, a (mere) body, which had a mooing sound, so they said: This is your god and the god of Musa, but he forgot.

    Could they not see that it did not return to them a reply, and (that) it did not control any harm or benefit for them?

    And certainly Haroun had said to them before: O my people! You are only being tested by it. Surely your Lord is the Merciful One, therefore follow me and obey my order.

    They said: We will by no means cease to keep to its worship until Musa returns to us.

    He (Musa) said: O Haroun! what prevented you, when you saw them going astray,

    So that you did not follow me? Did you then disobey my order?

    He said: O son of my mother! Seize me not by my beard nor by my head; surely I was afraid lest you should say: You have caused a division among the children of Israel and not waited for my word.

    He said: And what do you have to say, O Samiri?

    He said: I saw something they did not see, so I took a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and so I threw it; thus did my soul commend to me

    (20:86-96)

    These verses are a collection of puzzles. As in the case of the abbreviated letters, the exegetes were forced to bring out all their reserves of myths and legends and waffle according to their desires to decipher these mysterious inscriptions and sweep away the ambiguity which surrounds them. Yet it is obvious that in the field of eloquence, brevity in the wrong place impairs the meaning, just as over-elaboration spoils the meaning.

    What is the meaning of:

    "But we were made to bear the burdens of the ornaments of the people, then we threw them." (20:87)

     Where did they throw them? The exegetes say that they threw them in the fire. How do they know that if it wasn't for the stories from the Torah which the Qur'an says is corrupt? What would be the harm in mentioning the word "fire"? Why make us resort to a "corrupt" book to understand one that is not corrupt?

    But the big puzzle is the one that stands out in the last verse where the disorder reaches it's height:

    "I saw something they did not see, so I took a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and so I threw it." (20:96)

    What is this handful? And which prophet is it talking about? What fertile ground is this to resurrect the isra'illyat (NB: Narrations from the Bible) and pile myths in layers upon layers, and as a result, the myth of those who believe in an Arabic Qur'an "That has no crookedness in it, that they may fear God." (39:28)
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1063 - July 06, 2010, 09:21 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on July 04, 2010, 04:02 PM
    Maybe Muhammad just had a weird fixation with the right side of things... hence why he always used his right hand to do anything, or why he would always start doing things from the right side, like coming his hair.

    Apart from when you wash your backside, afaik its sunnat to use water and your left hand  cool2
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1064 - July 06, 2010, 09:38 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 02, 2010, 10:29 PM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an. (cont...)

    I can't understand any meaning for the word "right" in connection to an expansive mountain terrain that has no distinguishing marks and everything in it could be described as on the right or the left of something else. For direction is subjective, it has no objective meaning but is relative. It's meaning is defined in relation to something else.



    Very nice observation for the meaningless myths.... I think we need a Muslim version of the "Mythbusters"... Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1065 - July 06, 2010, 09:51 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 06, 2010, 09:12 AM
    ..."But we were made to bear the burdens of the ornaments of the people, then we threw them." (20:87)

     Where did they throw them? The exegetes say that they threw them in the fire. How do they know that if it wasn't for the stories from the Torah which the Qur'an says is corrupt? What would be the harm in mentioning the word "fire"? Why make us resort to a "corrupt" book to understand one that is not corrupt?

    But the big puzzle is the one that stands out in the last verse where the disorder reaches it's height:

    "I saw something they did not see, so I took a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and so I threw it." (20:96)

    What is this handful? And which prophet is it talking about?...



    This is an excellent point too!

    This story - as it stands in the Qur'an - doesn't make sense.

    You have no choice but to refer to the Bible.

    Yet the Bible is supposed to be corrupt and the Qur'an came to tell the truth.

    Like many stories in the Qur'an we are dependent on the Bible to know what the hell it's talking about.

    The Qur'an is supposed to correct the mistakes in the Bible - yet it leaves so much without comment. So are we supposed to believe that everything not explicitly contradicted in the Qur'an is true?

    So the Bible says they threw it in the fire - and we must assume the Bible's account is true as the story is incomplete otherwise. But if that is the case, then everything else in the Bible - not specifically referred to in the Qur'an must also be true by that reasoning.

    If we cannot assume that - then we cannot resort to the Bible to explain this story and it remains incomplete and ambiguous.

    And would it have hurt Allah to say the word "fire"?

    And that last verse really is just unbelievably ambiguous - just look at this - you just can't help saying WTF??

    "I saw something they did not see, so I took a handful from the footsteps of the messenger, and so I threw it." (20:96)

    What the hell is that all about?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1066 - July 06, 2010, 10:01 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 06, 2010, 09:12 AM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an. (cont...)


    Reading that part of the story of Musa made my brain hurt. Damn, it's confusing.

    Quote from: IsLame on July 06, 2010, 09:21 AM
    Apart from when you wash your backside, afaik its sunnat to use water and your left hand  cool2


    I have a sneaky suspicion that Muhammad was just winding people up with these bizarre and anal-retentive instructions.  wacko
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1067 - July 06, 2010, 10:05 AM
    btw Zeb - what is the Biblical account of this story?

    In the Qur'an it says it was some guy called Samiri who made them worship the cow - but doesn't the Bible say it was Aaron?

    Also what is this handful? and who is this messenger? Is this mentioned in the Bible?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1068 - July 06, 2010, 11:03 AM
    LOL! How the hell should I know? You've probably read more of the Bible than I have. You really do think I'm a Christian missionary, don't you? Alright, I'll play along  grin12

    But lemme just get ma King James out....

    Hehe, while searching around in Exodus I found this:

    22:19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

    Let's see... a lot of stuff about gold and silver...  Hm, ligures, agates and amethysts...

    34:14: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    Is that in the 99 names, by any chance?

    35:2: Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

    Ah, so that's where it comes from.

    32:27: And he said unto them, thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

    Another pearl of Biblical wisdom, there.

    And here's the pertinent verse:

    32:4: And he (Aaron) received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

    Didn't find any mention of someone called Samiri, no idea about the other stuff.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1069 - July 06, 2010, 11:12 AM
    Actually, come to think of it the 'handful' may be the gold jewellery that the people give Aaron to make the Calf out of, and his 'throwing it' may refer to his throwing it into the fire to forge the Calf...

    32:24: And I (Aaron) said unto them, Whosoever has any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1070 - July 06, 2010, 11:48 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on July 06, 2010, 11:03 AM
    LOL! How the hell should I know? You've probably read more of the Bible than I have. You really do think I'm a Christian missionary, don't you? Alright, I'll play along  grin12


    LOL... I realise now I have you mixed up with deusvult who actually used to be a Christian Missionary and so I thought he would know about this.

    But thanks for humouring me lol  Afro
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1071 - July 06, 2010, 11:51 AM
    I think Samiri means he was a Samaritan - or at least I think I read that somewhere.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1072 - July 06, 2010, 12:49 PM
    Probably.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1073 - July 07, 2010, 12:16 PM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an. (cont...)

    6. If you would like more of these puzzles in the verses of the Qur'an, then here is this verse:

    And certainly We tried Sulaiman, and placed on his throne a body. Then did he repent. (38:34)

    There's nothing like a good old fable to bestow meaning on this verse. Oh joy! Oh joy! At these verses that nothing can be compared to in respect of feeding the minds of Muslims with myths, and crippling their intellect, and diverting them from the world that is turning around them. So that they swim along in the world of the invisible far away from, the world of the visible!! Do you know what is this body which God placed on Sulayman's throne? He was a Jinn who appears to be an Arab because his name is "Sakhr" and sat on the throne of Sulayman who had married a woman he desired but worshipped idols. His kingdom was contained in his famous ring. One time he removed it when he wanted to go to the toilet and gave it to his wife to hold. Then that Jinn came in the form of Sulayman and took it from her and sat on this throne. Then Sulayman came out (of the toilet) but in an appearance that was different from his real form which the Jinn had stolen from him, and he saw the Jinn on his throne and said to the people "I am Sulayman so reject him (the Jinn)." Then he repented to God and his kingdom was returned after a few days!!
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1074 - July 07, 2010, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 06, 2010, 09:12 AM

    What is this handful? And which prophet is it talking about? What fertile ground is this to resurrect the isra'illyat (NB: Narrations from the Bible) and pile myths in layers upon layers, and as a result, the myth of those who believe in an Arabic Qur'an "That has no crookedness in it, that they may fear God." (39:28)


    [/b]


    CORRECTION: (NB: Narrations from Christians and Jews)

    The Isra'ilyyat are not narrations from the bible but are the narrations that are said to be from Christian and Jews at Muhammad's time.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1075 - July 07, 2010, 08:07 PM
    Come on, Hassan. PatchPad, please?
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1076 - July 08, 2010, 12:17 PM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 6 - Ambiguity in the Qur'an. (cont...)

    7. It is as though this huge seam of ambiguity that surrounds the Qur'an, and which puts the concept of its miraculousness in serious doubt, is not enough and so it adds another handicap. For amongst that which burdens the Qur'an with ambiguity and adds more ambiguity on top of it's ambiguity, is it's frequent usage of conflicting words. Words that contain two opposing meanings at the same time, even in doctrinal matters and legislative verses, even though this should be amongst those things are are totally off-limits in a book that is supposed to be inimitable.

    Take the verb (غَبَرَ "Ghabara") for example. It has two conflicting meanings: "To go" and "To stay". Yet this word appears seven times in seven verses that talk about the wife of Lot:

    And when Our messengers came to Ibrahim with the good news, they said: Surely we are going to destroy the people of this town, for its people are unjust. He said: Surely in it is Lut. They said: We know well who is in it; we shall certainly deliver him and his followers, except his wife; she shall be of the Ghaabireen. (29:31-32)

    "Thus the angels of punishment did indeed take Lot and his family out from the village and made his wife to remain, for she was of the Ghaabireen, meaning, 'those who remained' in the village to earn her portion of the punishment."

    8. Perhaps using this word that reflects two conflicting meanings is unimportant here because it doesn't concern a matter of faith. But the situation is quite different regarding another word that also has two completely contradictory meanings and in this case it pertains to a fundamental matter of faith. I am referring to (ظَنّ "Thanna"). This verb can give a meaning of doubt and also give a meaning of certainty. Despite this, the Qur'an has no problem using it:

    "And seek help through patience & prayer, and indeed it is a hard task except upon the humble, who know (يظنون) they will certainly meet their Lord and to him they shall return." (2:45-46)

    Is it right to use the word (ظَنّ "Thanna") in this case? Perhaps the meaning here is that it is not necessary for one to have complete conviction in the Day of Judgment? Perhaps Allah is content for the servant in this case to have doubt and weak faith? So what is to stop the meaning of this verse being like that, for the text doesn't exclude that.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1077 - July 08, 2010, 12:25 PM
    I wonder if I should just transliterate الله as just: Allah instead of God?

    For the reason that Allah conveys the specific Qur'anic concept of God - whereas "God" is a more general term.

    What do you think?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1078 - July 08, 2010, 12:48 PM
    +1 God also includes the pantheistic definition which we're not arguing against here, whereas Allah comes specifically with the Quran
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1079 - July 08, 2010, 03:15 PM
    Yea, I think you should use Allah instead of God. But I'm not gonna blindly replace all the occurrences of God with Allah, because I guess in some cases it will make more sense to write God. One example I can think of is the section title: "5.10 God. An Ineffective God"
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