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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1350 - August 20, 2014, 05:15 PM
    Yep I think Wansbrough was right about that, but I disagree with his theories about when and how slowly it was assembled (though in fairness he writes in such a complex way that it's not easy to tell what he's arguing).

    My suspicion is that the core Qur'an, as a collection of surahs, was probably compiled in the context of the Second Fitna.  Starting with 685 AD, we see the first coins mentioning Muhammad, and then starting 691 we have the first inscriptions referring to Muhammad as the messenger of Allah.

    Compilation of the Qur'an would have been a substantial endeavor, and likely would have required state support.  I suspect it was done for political reasons around this time, as the political utility of wielding a canon of the Prophet's sayings in the context of internecine Arab conflict became apparent.   This is probably also the time when these texts began being read in "bedouin" Arabic from Central Arabia, in connection with claiming a pure Arabic origin for the religion, rather than the urban Northern dialects that the underlying source material texts were originally composed in.

    But even at that late date, it would have been compiled from a broad range of preexisting texts, via selection and rearrangement, with ongoing editing.  There is relatively little evidence of blatant anachronism in the Qur'an; some monkeying, certainly (see the Sanaa lower palimpsest text for example), but its contents were obviously not just fabricated from whole cloth in a simple way.  What you seem to see are several different stages of modifying and ordering the texts, beginning with a core of genuinely archaic materials that probably emerged anonymously in the context of monotheistic Arab preaching.  And even after the first recognizable 'Qur'an' manuscripts were assembled, I think it took a couple more decades for all of the 'canonical' later surahs to be added; they are missing from all the earliest Qur'anic manuscripts. 

    What is of course interesting about all of this is how nobody seems to have heard of the Qur'an until very late, there are no Qur'anic inscriptions until the Dome of the Rock, and it does not seem to have played a significant role in the initial development of Islamic law or religious ritual (which requires strikingly little recitation).

    Of course all of this is hard to know because so much of early Islamic history is a void.  Since no contemporary evidence refers to the Qur'an, and we have no Qur'anic inscriptions until the 690s, I believe it is likely not to have been compiled and distributed until shortly before then ... but by the same token, since it did not exist, there is no direct evidence of its nonexistence.  Only evidence that nobody seems to have heard or cared about it; there were neither widespread texts nor widespread recitation.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1351 - August 20, 2014, 05:40 PM
    Do you think that it was a sect of either Christianity or Judaism that eventually got re-labelled Islam around the 690s with the codification in written text of a Qu'ran from various sources?
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1352 - August 20, 2014, 05:46 PM
    Just speculation of course, but if anything then a sect of Judaism - which if I remember rightly was what Cooke & Crone said way back when I was at SOAS.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1353 - August 20, 2014, 06:16 PM
    Donner says the tent was very wide, early Islam was a general movement of 'believers'

    Quote
    According to Donner, Mohammed built a movement of devout spiritualists from many faiths who shared a few core beliefs: God was one, the end of the world was near, and the truly religious had to live exemplary lives rather than merely pay lip service to God’s laws. It was only a century after Mohammed founded his ’’community of believers” and launched the great Islamic conquest that his followers started to define their beliefs as a distinct religious faith.


    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/05/02/islams_beginnings/
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1354 - August 20, 2014, 06:44 PM
    At the end of the day, all this is just speculation and we have to deal with the Islamic myth as Muslims today believe it to be and critique what's in front of us.

    For example, I strongly doubt that what is attributed to Musaylimah is actually his work. But I will treat it as if it is according to what Muslim scholars have related and compare it on that basis.

    And on that basis alone, I honestly could not say that God's literary skills are that much better Wink

    At least Musaylimah had a sense of humour  grin12
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1355 - August 20, 2014, 09:18 PM
    I think the believers were best described as indeterminate monotheists following an older tradition of judaic christianity ... as such not exactly what we think of nowadays as jews or christians.  However I think the Crone thesis that they were primarily "Jewish" is clearly incorrect.  The Qur'an itself presupposed a distinctively Syriac christian background; almost all of its language and references are specifically Syriac christian in derivation.  Almost none of the Qur'an's language or references derives from Jewish sources, by comparison.  There is so much Christian material in the Qur'an that I find it almost impossible to believe that its origins were not within a primarily Christian context.  This makes it very unlikely, in my mind, that it was just a sect of Judaism.  The other issue, of course, is that the Qur'an frequently attacks Jews.

    So I think the believers probably reflected a background of Judaizing Christianity (which is what Christianity originally was, prior to hellenization and imposition of the Nicene/Chalcedonian creeds), or retention of earlier Judaic Christianity against Hellenic innovations, more than the reverse.  Donner's description is pretty good -- it was a group of those who shared belief in impending judgment and the last day, as well as there being only one good.  Basically apocalyptic monotheism, likely centered on Jerusalem, in an Arabic context.  Which did not discriminate too closely beyond that.

    Crone has criticized Donner for not taking into account the Qur'an's frequent screeds against Jews, and I think she is right to do so, but that's largely because Donner does not consider the believers to have been as Christianized as I personally think they were.

    Abu Ali is totally right, however, that we have very limited historical sources prior to Islamic mythologizing, and so most of this is just speculation.  There are certain key insights that scholars have come up with, but they are like beams of light in an ocean of dark obscurity.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1356 - August 20, 2014, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: Zaotar on August 20, 2014, 09:18 PM
    .......... The other issue, of course, is that the Qur'an frequently attacks Jews..........

    well Zaotar, Quran actually attacks New Testament /Christianity more than the Jewish texts.. In fact  it questions the ROOTS of Christianity that "Christ is NOT son of god"  It is true Early Muslims attacked/killed Jewish tribe of Arabia more than Christians(during Muhammad's life time).  

    But most your posts support the idea of "that there was no historical Muhammad" and all of Islam until that  Marwan I (684–685)  or Abd al-Malik (685–705) is nothing but cock & bull stories including Quran.  Correct me if I am wrong Zaotar.. So the possibility of Much of Quran text comes from some Jewish sect than  the New Testament is higher than other way around..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1357 - August 20, 2014, 10:13 PM
    The Qur'an spends comparatively little time attacking Christians; Jews get it much worse.  The Qur'an disagrees with *orthodox trinitarian Christianity* about the status of Jesus's divinity, of course, but so did many early Christian groups.  The Nicene Creed took a long time to develop, and rejecting the Nicene Creed doesn't mean you aren't Christian.  Because people nowadays aren't familiar with non-trinitarian Christianity, we forget this, and so the Qur'an reads far more anti-Christian than it actually was back around 600 AD -- when there were many other Christianities still, particularly lingering in marginal areas such as Arab Syria.

    So granted that the Qur'an bitterly disputes orthodox Christology, but .... that's itself a Christian issue.  Early Christianity bitterly disputed Christology as a matter of course, particularly in Syria (think of the Nestorians/Jacobeans). The *Jewish* position on Jesus, on the other hand, is quite different still.

    As for the New Testament, the Qur'an rarely mentions the Gospels, and when it does it seems to think of them as one single book, called in Arabic the "Injil," which scholars have argued (I think rightly) reflects a knowledge of the "Diatessaron," a Gospel harmony that was for a long time the primary New Testament Christian text which circulated in Syria, until it was later replaced (slowly!) by the Peshitta translation of the New Testament.  But when the Qur'an does mention the Gospel (more properly "Injil"), it is almost always in a positive light, that I can recall.  The Qur'an's theological quarrel with Christians is not over the Injil or over Jesus, it is over their alleged *perversion* of the Injil and Jesus, attributing divinity to him, when Allah has no associates, and Jesus was just a prophet.  Christians have misunderstood and perverted the Injil.  Muhammad, via the Qur'an, will explain the true message of the holy scriptures correctly to us.

    Btw I don't hold there was no historical Muhammad, I think there was, just that he was very different than the Muhammad of the sirah.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1358 - August 20, 2014, 10:26 PM
    Quote from: Zaotar on August 20, 2014, 10:13 PM
    .................  Muhammad, via the Qur'an, will explain the true message of the holy scriptures correctly to us.

    well I do have to agree with some of your points  but tell me something about those words  "  Quran explains the true message of the holy scriptures correctly to us"??  

     with the exception of that statement Jesus was a not son of god but a prophet   which is not per se "Holy".,    what holy scripture do you see in Quran?

    Quote
    Btw I don't hold there was no historical Muhammad, I think there was, just that he was very different than the Muhammad of the sirah.

    Oh I see., you mean to say there was an historical Muhammad..

      How about these guys??    Abu Bakr ibn Qhuhafah (632–634).,  Umar ibn al-Khattab (634–644).,  Uthman ibn Affan (644–656)., Ali ibn Abi Talib (656–661) .. did they exist or whole thing about them was silly stories from Early Muslims?

    And what can you  say about Muhammad Prophet of Islam  and those four guys above without that SIrah and without hadith?? ,

    quransmessage.com
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1359 - August 21, 2014, 02:38 PM
    There is a not-so-well known book on how Musaylima is represented in Islamic texts. Anyone know anything about it or have a PDF copy?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/3631608624/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_SON1tb08MVHSNYYV
    http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
    http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
    https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1360 - August 21, 2014, 03:02 PM
    Quote from: captndisguise on August 21, 2014, 02:38 PM
    There is a not-so-well known book on how Musaylima is represented in Islamic texts. Anyone know anything about it or have a PDF copy?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/3631608624/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_SON1tb08MVHSNYYV



    well that guy who wrote that book is from Indonesia

    Quote
    Dr Al Makin obtained his PhD in Philosophy/Islamic Studies from the University of Heidelberg, Germany, MA in Islamic Studies from McGill University, Montreal and BA in Islamic Studies from the State Islamic University, Sunan Kalijaga, Yogyakarta. He is currently a Lecturer at the State Islamic University Sunan Kalijaga, Yogyakarta

    Or..or did he move to Australia??  anyway  you can read his article on  Musaylima to the Kharazites .. I am sure he dded that to his book/thesis..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1361 - August 27, 2014, 10:51 PM
    I do remember Jamal Badawi telling a story about Musaylimah and how is attempt to produce a surah was such a lousy piece of work, further ''strengthening'' the argument that the Quran supposedly was inimitable. I think alot of archeological research needs to be done on the early days of Islam. One thing I wonder is if there are ayahs in the Quran which are literally copied from other literature. Imagine finding just ''Alif laam meem. Dhalik al-kitabu la raybah feeh'' in a text carbon dated to year 350.


    A bit offtopic but this seems to be another ordeal with the quran....is there someone who understands arabic who can comment, its unrelated though. Its starts after 32+ sec and it seems to be a person wrongly trying to correct the Imam on a verse.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGgDUSyG_zE&feature=youtu.be
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1362 - August 27, 2014, 10:53 PM
    Archaeological research in Saudi Arabia? You'll be lucky mate. Most of the historical enviornment has been PURPOSELY DESTROYED by those idiots!
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1363 - August 27, 2014, 11:09 PM
    You're right, most of the historical sites have been destroyed. But that which is beneath the surface can be salvaged. If they can find ancient christian or jewish literature in arabic, just one ayah is enough. Essentially, muslims would in that case have to turn against carbon dating like some christians are doing . Btw, have you watched the video after 32 + sec. Its about a person who's trying to correct an imam, but that person seems to be wrong ...its a bit hilarous
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1364 - August 27, 2014, 11:15 PM
     Afro  Cheesy
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1365 - August 28, 2014, 12:57 AM
    Quote from: Jedi on August 27, 2014, 10:53 PM
    Archaeological research in Saudi Arabia? You'll be lucky mate. Most of the historical enviornment has been PURPOSELY DESTROYED by those idiots!


    It was not purposefully destroyed.  It never existed.   All archaeological work in the Hijaz always comes up blank, because the area was almost completely uninhabited until after the rise of Islam.

    Only in the North and in the region bordering Yemen in the South was there appreciable pre-Islamic archaeology to be had.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1366 - August 30, 2014, 12:25 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on August 30, 2014, 11:55 AM
    Chapter 4
    Part 14

    The Qurʾān & the Belief in the Unseen

    We must use our mind rather than traditions. Knowledge and intellect rather than magic and hidden secrets. On humanity rather than an invisible creator. But most of all, before anything else, we must abandon the world of the unseen and start living in the real world. We must strive to achieve our utmost using reason and logic rather than surrendering to apathy(84) that places faith in the unseen hoping that after we die we will have a happy and bountiful life full of the delights of paradise such as the Houris, palaces, soft couches, gardens, and rivers.

    Without doubt the most pernicious disease that has become deeply rooted in our cultural mentality is belief in the unseen. It is this that has seduced our minds and emotions since the dawn of Islam. Since Allah made it a condition of faith by saying: "Aif Lam Meem, that book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the pious who believe in the unseen and establish prayer and spend from that which we provide for them." (2:1-3)

    Nothing can be more indicative of the importance of the unseen in Islam than the fact that the word appears 48 times in the Qur'an. This wretched word has - and continues - to dominate us. It has bedevilled our history and collective consciousness, it has held our willpower hostage, and shackled our mind in chains that cannot be broken. It is has provided support for every good-for-nothing, incompetent, deadbeat, idle-loafer and such like from custodians of the temple and those who kindle other people's fire.

    In as much as the Qur'an was a factor behind the rise of the Arabs and their appearance on the world stage and participation in science and civilisation, it has become, since the beginning of  the age of decline, a source of backwardness. It's role in advancing the Arabs has finished. It has spent and exhausted it's usefulness in make us progress, and has now turned back in on itself and takes us backwards and propels us into the arms of the past and the world of the unseen.

    Religion, by definition, directs your attention towards the unseen; God, angels and the next life. That is it's primary function. When a religion is new it can be a force for change. It can be dynamic and innovative. But in later years it becomes the opposite. It becomes a force of stagnation, looking backwards to the past, reactionary and regressive. The religious person cannot ever forget the past - whether Muslim, Christian, or Jew. The Qur'an, however, more than any other religion makes faith in the unseen a firmly established principle. It placed it before all other acts of worship. That is how it is placed within the heart of the previously mentioned verse. It specifies the "Muttaqeen" (pious) as being "those who believe in the unseen" first! Then after that, "those who establish prayer."


    (84) An example of where this sort of apathy takes place is during the month of Ramadan, where work often takes second place to prayers, fasting and staying up making Du'a.



    Excellent stuff going on here.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1367 - August 30, 2014, 12:55 PM
    Yes, thanks Lily - I love this last bit.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1368 - August 30, 2014, 02:15 PM
    Me too very concise yet detailed.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1369 - August 30, 2014, 02:21 PM
    yes, that is a wonderful extract. Again, thanks for doing this,  Abu Ali
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • My Ordeal With The Quran - Actual Translation
     Reply #1370 - August 30, 2014, 03:28 PM
    Beautiful hassan Smiley
    It says it all
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1371 - August 30, 2014, 03:41 PM
    confusedagno, I moved your comment to the discussion page so that we can keep the original topic only for the translation itself.  Smiley
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1372 - August 30, 2014, 05:28 PM
    cool Smiley
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1373 - August 30, 2014, 08:19 PM
    Quote from: confusedagno on August 30, 2014, 03:28 PM
    Beautiful hassan Smiley
    It says it all


    Yes, thanks - it is an awesome book.

    I have taken liberties at times in the translation - but only to preserve what he is trying to say. Smiley
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1374 - September 03, 2014, 11:35 PM
    Hey Teapot, when you get the chance could you change two chapter titles in the contents page of the PDF latest version.

    These:

    Chapter 4

    Part 15

    Inhumanity of the Qur'an

    Chapter 5

    God in the Qur'an.

    Introduction

    The Existence & the non-Existence of God is the Same Thing!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1375 - September 04, 2014, 12:00 AM
    Ah man, this was one of the most beautiful things I've ever read. It's like humanity is finally starting to wake up.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1376 - September 04, 2014, 12:21 AM
    Yes, it can't be said enough, how good this book is.  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1377 - September 04, 2014, 10:58 AM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on September 01, 2014, 09:40 PM
    Firstly this says nothing about which God this is? Secondly if this God has no cause then the premise is wrong - not everything has a cause.


    Which is why P1 has been changed to: "Everything which begins to exist has a cause of its existence."

    Slippery apologetics at their finest.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1378 - September 04, 2014, 11:58 AM
    Quote from: Qtian on September 04, 2014, 10:58 AM
    Which is why P1 has been changed to: "Everything which begins to exist has a cause of its existence."

    Slippery apologetics at their finest.

    It is OK to live in their slippery mud as long as they don't drag other innocents in to it..

    But Qtian  I will give  these  apologists whatever they want w.r.t that statement ., they can work freely and run in circles  to prove that "Everything which begins to exist has a cause of its existence."   I hope and insist that  they must  include  their god/gods and allah in inquiring/researching/investigating that statement

    But..But I WILL NOT GIVE A millimeter space to these stupid religious books and to their rules and to the gods.. allah whatever from  these stupid books written by  some cave dwellers some 1000s of years ago..  

    But here I bow to Abu Ali for his fantastic   work on that book
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1379 - September 04, 2014, 12:08 PM
    And therein lies the problem Yeez.

    The Theistic God is posited as being eternal. Monotheists will not grant the idea that their God could have been brought into existence. In asking a Muslim,Christian or Jew to explain what caused their God, you are misunderstanding their position.

    http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6113







    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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