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 Topic: Who is still muslim?

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  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #60 - May 14, 2010, 12:46 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 14, 2010, 12:00 PM
    Debunker doesn't fuck around  cool2

    DB

    You believe in Theory of Evolution. How do you square that with Islam and Creationism?



    People are moved by their biases... in my case, I'm biased too.. I keep looking for valid or at least somewhat plausible escape routes to what seems like problems in the Quran... For example, when it comes to the creeation story, there are two different escape routes... either the dust, referred to in the Quran, is the stardust, which later became a whole chain of life, until man was created OR man was created spontaneously, in a perfect form, and part of his punishment and outcasting of paradise is to asume this very humiliating animal-like form.... when you were a Muslim, did you ever thought that Adam needed to *relieve* himself in paradise?

    Like I said, many verses are vague enough (or very short on details) providing a lot of escape routes...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #61 - May 14, 2010, 12:47 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 14, 2010, 11:42 AM
    hello JK, i is a fellow Muslim. I think i initialy came on here just because there is no reason why Muslims/ex-Muslims can not be friends (i think this is important given the death for apostasy views  a lot of Muslims hold). although we  may have very different views and interpretations of Islam - honest and open debate is always a good thing - so this is a good place to be. i guess i stuck around because i find the discussions/people here interesting. in addition since i am not an orthodox Muslim i find some of the views very useful, and on occasion, even enlightening with regards to my own position.

    you sound like a nice guy so i hope you will stick around and make more contributions. ps don't worry about debunker - he wants to exterminate all Muslims except for himself  Cheesy


    Abu Yunus smells funny Smiley
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #62 - May 14, 2010, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 14, 2010, 12:38 PM
    I dont think we should commit to anything until we have proof. At best we should remain ambivalent, what you say Debunker?


    I think, in the case of *Hassan*, he wants to committ to a God of his own imagination, but regardless of how he imagines his God to be, this God always falls short, given the unmaginable suffering in this world He created!

    As for me, it only makes sense God exists!  Now you might argue that even if He does exist, then it's not the Quranic God, but that's a different topic altogeather.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #63 - May 14, 2010, 12:51 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 14, 2010, 12:01 PM
    Smiley wellcome back bro, and good luck with your phd viva.


    thanks, Abu!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #64 - May 14, 2010, 12:53 PM
    I meant more about being commital rather than making sense.  Its part of the reason I choose to remain agnostic, as opposed to being an atheist, so hope you can see I am not being hypocritical about it.
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  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #65 - May 14, 2010, 12:56 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 14, 2010, 12:46 PM
    People are moved by their biases... in my case, I'm biased too.. I keep looking for valid or at least somewhat plausible escape routes to what seems like problems in the Quran... For example, when it comes to the creeation story, there are two different escape routes... either the dust, referred to in the Quran, is the stardust, which later became a whole chain of life, until man was created OR man was created spontaneously, in a perfect form, and part of his punishment and outcasting of paradise is to asume this very humiliating animal-like form.... when you were a Muslim, did you ever thought that Adam needed to *relieve* himself in paradise?

    Like I said, many verses are vague enough (or very short on details) providing a lot of escape routes...




    When I was muslim I believed Evolution was some kind of propaganda and which said that we came from apes. I read about evolution from anti-evolution sites which of course are biased from the get go. Of course there are holes in the theory but thats how life works. What I dislike is lies or false assumptions.

    Reading the Quran I came to believe everything popped into existence at once. Somehow God had sent down Adam and Eve from Heaven which was in another plane. I simply had to accept all this. It also meant God designed everything in one go.

    Questions I wondered about

    Why then was the universe not created in one go? Why 6 days (periods). And why was there such a long time between the formation of universe and earth and then arrival of mankind? Was designations as bronze age etc just something made up? Why didn't the history of mankind correspond to Adam and Eve? What about the rest of the world? Americas? Australia? etc etc

    Just too many questions that were difficult to answer so I had to take everything on faith.
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #66 - May 14, 2010, 12:56 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 14, 2010, 12:50 PM
    I think, in the case of *Hassan*, he wants to committ to a God of his own imagination, but regardless of how he imagines his God to be, this God always falls short, given the unmaginable suffering in this world He created!

    As for me, it only makes sense God exists!  Now you might argue that even if He does exist, then it's not the Quranic God, but that's a different topic altogeather.


    Does God answer prayers DB?
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #67 - May 14, 2010, 12:59 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 14, 2010, 11:42 AM
    I think i initialy came on here just because there is no reason why Muslims/ex-Muslims can not be friends (i think this is important given the death for apostasy views  a lot of Muslims hold).


    Are you sure?

    5:57: O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).

    Edit: Another verse:

    5:55: Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
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  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #68 - May 14, 2010, 01:01 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 14, 2010, 12:56 PM
    Does God answer prayers DB?


    I did answer that question before, I even elaborated, but in short, yes He does (seemlessly).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #69 - May 14, 2010, 01:02 PM
    Aziz DB would say that means protectors and not friends but Hassan can you comment on that? Is it indeed friends or is it protectors?

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #70 - May 14, 2010, 01:03 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 14, 2010, 01:01 PM
    I did answer that question before, I even elaborated, but in short, yes He does (seemlessly).


    So can he regrow my limbs if I lose them?
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #71 - May 14, 2010, 01:05 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 14, 2010, 01:01 PM
    I did answer that question before, I even elaborated, but in short, yes He does (seemlessly).

    In that case shouldnt theists who pray have better cancer survival rates than atheists that dont?
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  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #72 - May 14, 2010, 01:13 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 14, 2010, 01:02 PM
    Aziz DB would say that means protectors and not friends but Hassan can you comment on that? Is it indeed friends or is it protectors?

    Does it really matter that much? What is meant by protector? Does that include the police forces? Are you not allowed to befriend police officers then? And what about being a protector of your own family members? Should Muslims never trust ex-Muslim relatives with their kids for example??
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #73 - May 14, 2010, 01:21 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on May 14, 2010, 01:13 PM
    Does it really matter that much? What is meant by protector? Does that include the police forces? Are you not allowed to befriend police officers then? And what about being a protector of your own family members? Should Muslims never trust ex-Muslim relatives with their kids for example??


    In the end those verses seperate people. Friend/protector, Allah is asking people to take sides. If you are not muslim then you can't be fully trusted. And no of course not, people would not agree with non-muslims being untrustworthy, in fact many of my non-muslim friends when I was a muslim took care of me and helped my family. And they did so out of the kindness of their hearts and not for any gains.

    This was a verse I had major issues with back when. I just couldn't understand why Allah would say this? Especially when I had some very dear friends. I guess the defence would be context of Mecca and Medina, but the Quran does not state that its a context verse, and even then wtf why would you seprate families and friends over matter of faith?

    Its still wrong, I guess I'm trying to see it as DB sees it.

    DB imagine if I took this verse and implemented it now, as a non-muslim. Can I not be friends with you? Can you not be my protector (lol)? Or Abu Yunus for that matter? If I acted in this manner would you not feel slighted? Or even insulted?
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #74 - May 14, 2010, 01:21 PM
    @ BD

    Quote
    So can he regrow my limbs if I lose them?

     

    He could, but He won't... much like He won't bring a dead relative to life no matter how hard you prayed.

    @ Islame

    Quote
    In that case shouldnt theists who pray have better cancer survival rates than atheists that dont?


    You're repeating a question I answered in many posts before and you ended up insulting me twice.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #75 - May 14, 2010, 01:24 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 14, 2010, 01:21 PM
    @ BD
     

    He could, but He won't... much like He won't bring a dead relative to life no matter how hard you prayed.



    Why? Does he not have the powers over life and death? He has done so in the past, brought people back from the dead.

    There are children who lost their limbs in the Iraq/Iran war. They were sent out to the minefields for the sake of Allah. And they would for the rest of their lives be crippled.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #76 - May 14, 2010, 01:27 PM

    So basically debunker, you're saying that God doesn't give a shit when you pray to him, and he only wants the ass kissing to continue and thats it.

    Why does he need to have his ass kissed so much?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #77 - May 14, 2010, 01:29 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 14, 2010, 12:53 PM
    I meant more about being commital rather than making sense.  Its part of the reason I choose to remain agnostic, as opposed to being an atheist, so hope you can see I am not being hypocritical about it.

    and this?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #78 - May 14, 2010, 01:45 PM
    Quote from: billy on May 14, 2010, 01:27 PM
    So basically debunker, you're saying that God doesn't give a shit when you pray to him, and he only wants the ass kissing to continue and thats it.

    Why does he need to have his ass kissed so much?



    billy, first of all, I'm not sure if by your question you're saying that God, if He exists, should even bring back limbs and dead loved ones, if smeone prayed hard enough.

    Now, as for God "seeking attention", I answered this many times before, even quoted verses from the Quran, where it plainly says God does not care if the entire world disbelieved... anyway, let me quote an atheist member in this forum regarding this:

    Quote
    Well, technically, if a god existed and it were perfect and blah blah, it would not NEED our attention.
    But it could still demand it.
    And being transcendent and whatnot, its goals or desires would be quite alien to us.

    So asking why is a nonsense, whether you believe in god or not.

    Its equivalent to asking as why god would NOT want our attention.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10213.msg263495#msg263495

    So even our atheist friend doesn't think that's a meaningful question.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #79 - May 14, 2010, 01:45 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 14, 2010, 12:21 PM
    Hell = Eternal Torture.

    It's indefensible, contradicts reason, mercy and justice. It leads to fear as a motivation for submission  and obedience - appealing to baser instincts and giving no value to reason - the mind God gave us - which although limited - is all we've got! If it isn't sufficient then whose fault is that?

    On top of that obedience/worship motivated by fear (or reward for that matter) is profoundly immoral per se.
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #80 - May 14, 2010, 01:46 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 14, 2010, 01:29 PM
    and this?


    I thought that was a comment, not a question... could you reformulate it as a question?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #81 - May 14, 2010, 01:49 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on May 14, 2010, 12:59 PM
    Are you sure?

    5:57: O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).

    Edit: Another verse:

    5:55: Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).



    ‘’God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.’’ 60:8

    ‘’God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.’’ 60:9

    I would guess that the verse you quoted Aziz is context dependent. If you are at conflict with a people and they start mocking your religion and basically start taking the piss, then it's forbidden to 'take them as protectors' - given the verses I quote above I would argue that it's perfectly fine to have non-Muslims as 'friends or protectors' when you are not being persecuted by them.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #82 - May 14, 2010, 02:07 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 14, 2010, 01:45 PM
    Now, as for God "seeking attention", I answered this many times before, even quoted verses from the Quran, where it plainly says God does not care if the entire world disbelieved...


    debunker, the question is asked in order to uncover the absurdity of prayer, and the belief in prayer being a means by which to display and register fealty to God - this is a very meaningful and profound question, because it renders the conception of god held by the religious as absurd and petty, and further displays how god is actually a projection of human insecurity and male vanity.

    Now, as to your point above - it really is sophistry to suggest that the god of Islam is indifferent to his worship. Why is he such a jealous, covetous being, then, and why do his emissaries expend so much energy on appointing him on earth?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #83 - May 14, 2010, 02:23 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 14, 2010, 01:45 PM
    billy, first of all, I'm not sure if by your question you're saying that God, if He exists, should even bring back limbs and dead loved ones, if smeone prayed hard enough.

    Now, as for God "seeking attention", I answered this many times before, even quoted verses from the Quran, where it plainly says God does not care if the entire world disbelieved...


    Then why does he punish people for not disbelieving?
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #84 - May 14, 2010, 02:26 PM
    @ billy

    Quote
    debunker, the question is asked in order to uncover the absurdity of prayer, and the belief in prayer being a means by which to display and register fealty to God - this is a very meaningful and profound question, because it renders the conception of god held by the religious as absurd and petty, and further displays how god is actually a projection of human insecurity and male vanity.

    Now, as to your point above - it really is sophistry to suggest that the god of Islam is indifferent to his worship. Why is he such a jealous, covetous being, then, and why do his emissaries expend so much energy on appointing him on earth?


    I agree with you that the vast majority of the religious, including way too many Muslims, believe that God works according to a system of *Quid pro quo*.. "you pray to Me, I'm all happy and I'll surely pay you back!"

    Look, I don't deny that there are verses in the Quran that seem, when taken at face value, to say exactly that. But there are too many other verses explaining these verses to mean something else... According to Quran (and I can show you verses, if you're interested, but I know you aren't)

    1- God does NOT need, nor care for our worship/prayer/gratitude.
    2- It is the universal law, a fact of the cosmos, that every creation is owned by the Creator, and thus the created are slaves to their Creator.
    3- It is thus, the creation's *duty* to worship (acknowledge) God's ownership of the creation, regardless.



    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #85 - May 14, 2010, 02:29 PM

    debunker - don't you think you should be on about a hundred thousand Islamic websites informing them of this then?

    Why defend it to us, you should be assaulting your fellow Muslims for their misunderstanding.

    (On the low down, I think they are closest to the spirit of Islamic prayer though dude  Afro)

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #86 - May 14, 2010, 02:31 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on May 14, 2010, 02:23 PM
    Then why does he punish people for not disbelieving?


    I answered this in detail, here:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8392.0

    But the short answer is: because He does NOT care... if He shall make my suffering any less horrible than the utmost grusome infinite torment, then He should care for me first, at least a little.... His infinite mercy is what might make Him care for an infinitely insignificant creation like myself.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #87 - May 14, 2010, 02:34 PM
    Quote from: billy on May 14, 2010, 02:29 PM
    debunker - don't you think you should be on about a hundred thousand Islamic websites informing them of this then?

    Why defend it to us, you should be assaulting your fellow Muslims for their misunderstanding.

    (On the low down, I think they are closest to the spirit of Islamic prayer though dude  Afro)



    yeah, you said this before, and i replied that I can't bother posting on Islamic sites (banned more than once)... I said that I'd build my own site... but since I'm mainly here to socialize and I'm on a brief break, I don't think I can build my site now... in any case, I didn't start the religious questioning...you guys did, and you're repeating yourselves too.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #88 - May 14, 2010, 02:34 PM
    Quote
    It is the universal law, a fact of the cosmos, that every creation is owned by the Creator, and thus the created are slaves to their Creator.


    Who very conveniently has a bunch of appointed emisarries to dispense guidance to these slaves on earth and in society, who wield the whip with relish  Afro

    And hey, talking about slaves, did you read my posts about Massah Allah and his plantations? Islam is a slave - slave master - plantation overseer and the dynamics of this model?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Who is still muslim?
     Reply #89 - May 14, 2010, 02:36 PM
    Quote from: debunker on May 14, 2010, 02:34 PM
    yeah, you said this before, and i replied that I can't bother posting on Islamic sites (banned more than once)... I said that I'd build my own site... but since I'm mainly here to socialize and I'm on a brief break, I don't think I can build my site now... in any case, I didn't start the religious questioning...you guys did, and you're repeating yourselves too.


    You love ex Muslims - they're the only ones who respect you  Wink

    What does that tell you, debunker?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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