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 Topic: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...

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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #60 - May 27, 2010, 10:21 AM
    You got that from family guy
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #61 - May 27, 2010, 10:23 AM
    Quote from: j4m3s2 on May 27, 2010, 10:21 AM
    You got that from family guy


    I didn't, it's just how it makes me feel.  But it doesn't surprise me that it made other people feel the same.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #62 - May 27, 2010, 10:24 AM
    Okay mr handlebar.

    Whatever you say.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #63 - May 27, 2010, 10:26 AM
    Quote from: j4m3s2 on May 27, 2010, 10:24 AM
    Okay mr handlebar.

    Whatever you say.


    Nope, it's true; and the handlebars are gone Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #64 - May 27, 2010, 10:28 AM
    For that massacre of the moustache, I am unsubscribing

    Good day sir.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #65 - May 27, 2010, 10:30 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 10:19 AM
    Luke was an arrogant prick.  I remember some guy saying how it would be impossible to hit that target, and Lukes arrogant reply.  I can tell you, if I had been that guy next to Luke Skywalker the script would have gone differently

    Me: That's an impossible target to hit!
    Luke: It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.
    Me: Mate, fuck off!


     Grin
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #66 - May 27, 2010, 10:30 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 26, 2010, 08:31 PM
    I have to say that I have become bored of debating Islam. In fact I have been for a while. Islam is history for me - but wish no ill will at all to Muslims - in fact I see all human beings in the same boat - just groping in the dark as best they can and I have equal empathy for all - regardless.

    I am still pretty much addicted to the forum - but just for the banter really - with ppl I can identify with Smiley

    What about you?

    Here for the debate about Islam - or social chit-chat - or bit of both?

    I came here for the debate, but like yourself I'm bored of Islam too. I just wanna move on now.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #67 - May 27, 2010, 10:32 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on May 27, 2010, 10:30 AM
    I came here for the debate, but like yourself I'm bored of Islam too. I just wanna move on now.


    I know what you mean.  Whenever I see a new topic "What do you think of...." I think to myself, "It's Islam, I think it's bollocks" Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #68 - May 27, 2010, 11:00 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 26, 2010, 09:00 PM
    Bwig Huggie to everyone on CEMB  hugs


    Cheesy I am here for the social chit chat!  far away hug
    ...
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #69 - May 27, 2010, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: debunker on May 26, 2010, 09:58 PM
    btw Hassan, I would credit Abu's gigantic doubts to you... his discussions with you are what led him to this.... yet, you won't just finish him off, why is that?

    I KNOW you don't care to turn people against their religion, but the poor guy is like halfway slaughtered sheep... somebody must finish him off... I believe I can do it, but ...


    Quote from: debunker on May 26, 2010, 10:23 PM
    I know Hassan, you're not on a mission... I guess I'm just trying to find someone to encourage me to finish him off myself! I know I sound like a monster, and I probably need therapy, but seeing him like this, I feel so tempted to give him that final push towards apostasy, and all of this despite my liking him! Such a sick person I am.  wacko


    I was always a non-orthodox Muslim before I came on this site - I always believed that hadith and tafsir are nothing but conjecture and man-made BS, I always felt that hell is metaphorical and may not be forever and that people are not sent to hell just because of non-belief. However, I have still always had difficult questions about the consequences of these beleifs as well as doubts about other aspects of Islam. My discussions here with Hassan and others have made me think good and hard about these things - and I have gradually, and I think naturally,  come to the stage where I have reached the opinion that  the whole of the Qur'an was meant to be limited to its time and place. This is not something that Hassan or anyone else on here believes/believed as far as I'm aware.

    I know you debunker, have seen this to mean that I am moving closer to apostasy and you have said you could cause my apostasy if you wanted on a few occasions. Because I try to be modest in the way I say things or the way I don't say things, I didn't respond. But just for the record, apostasy has never once entered my head and I don't think anything you say could ever cause it to. Therefore I think a discussion regarding this would be a bit pointless - instead I think my time is better spent getting my ideas across for the sake of reform - if anyone wants to bother listen.

    In summary, I do not have negative doubts about Islam - although I once did when I first came on the forum. Instead the veiws I hold now have made me feel a lot more positive about Islam - sure you don't agree with some of my interpretations and views - but then again I definitely do not agree with some of your interpretations and views.

    Rant over  grin12
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #70 - May 27, 2010, 11:10 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 11:05 AM
    the whole of the Qur'an was meant to be limited to its time and place


    Which raises 2 points from me.

    1: What's the point in a message to all people of the time only for later generations to think "What does God want now?"
    2: If you believe in God but don't believe any religion tells you what God wants, that makes you a deist.

    Apostasy is admitting to yourself that religion doesn't tell you what God wants, looks to me like you've already done it.  It doesn't make you an atheist.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #71 - May 27, 2010, 11:18 AM
    Abu, you are almost Agnostic! I think!
    ...
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #72 - May 27, 2010, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 11:10 AM
    Which raises 2 points from me.

    1: What's the point in a message to all people of the time only for later generations to think "What does God want now?"
    2: If you believe in God but don't believe any religion tells you what God wants, that makes you a deist.

    Apostasy is admitting to yourself that religion doesn't tell you what God wants, looks to me like you've already done it.  It doesn't make you an atheist.


    Afro
    ...
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #73 - May 27, 2010, 11:20 AM
    yeah whatever, tossers  grin12
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #74 - May 27, 2010, 11:26 AM
    Agnostic is good, in case Budah or Rama turns out to the true gods!
    ...
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #75 - May 27, 2010, 11:55 AM
    You know what, I don't think I am necessarily bored with debating Islam. Its just I'm bored with debating it with you lot! Lol. I really would love to have a real life debate with a Muslim about Islam, but I am a long way off that yet.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #76 - May 27, 2010, 12:35 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 27, 2010, 09:50 AM
    I believe most of the motivation to debate others comes not from some altruistic desire to 'enlighten' them, but to convince oneself one is 'right' and to make oneself feel more secure.

    Certainly for new apostates this is true who are still in the throes of trying to feel comfort & solace after overthrowing their ingrained beliefs.  However not sure if that applies to the more 'mature' apostates and dont need to convince themselves they are right.  Most of them already know they are right Smiley.



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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #77 - May 27, 2010, 01:00 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 11:05 AM
    I was always a non-orthodox Muslim before I came on this site

    I think its a shame that the site was called council of ex-muslims to begin with, judging by its current membership it should be named Council for Ex-Theists & Heretics, who all suffer the same problems as ex-muslims and benefit from it for the same reason i.e. a safe sanctuary to openly discuss their non-orthodox views without being closed down by the religious mafia.  But then it is affiliated to CEMB and still provides that useful function for everybody, so thats where we are I guess.

    Quote
    where I have reached the opinion that  the whole of the Qur'an was meant to be limited to its time and place. This is not something that Hassan or anyone else on here believes/believed as far as I'm aware.


    I certainly didnt as this stance doesnt make sense to me, but not sure about others.  I just assumed Islam was right, and any doubts I had were due to satan or uneducated mullahs at play.  Although I thought Hassan said he did think this way towards his later stages as a Muslim, didnt he?

    While we are on this subject can you help me with the following:

    1) How do we even know if Allah wants us to be good?  Or not to slay people who are against Islam?  Or that we are to use our own intelligence to find the answers?
    2) Where does that leave you with things that are seen are characteristically Islamic e.g. consuming alcohol & pork, circumcision, having multiple wives?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #78 - May 27, 2010, 01:06 PM
    Quote from: Mixu Paatelainen on May 27, 2010, 11:55 AM
    You know what, I don't think I am necessarily bored with debating Islam. Its just I'm bored with debating it with you lot! Lol. I really would love to have a real life debate with a Muslim about Islam, but I am a long way off that yet.

    Mixu,
    For an ex-Muslim, unfortunately a real life debate with Muslims is going to be difficult, because of the apostasy ruling in Islam. Furthermore, many religious Muslims are taught to avoid debates with atheists. Cheesy
    Damn it! Cults and religions seem to have evolved all kinds of adaptations to survive.  Scientology also has many ways of lessening the influence of ex-members (blackmail etc).

    In real life, it seems to me that most Muslims only socialise with fellow Muslims, so their beliefs/views never get challenged.  They might meet atheists at work, but people never talk about religion at work (for good reasons, admittedly).  On the internet too, most Muslims only go to Muslim forums.  But there's one exception.  YouTube and facebook are increasingly becoming the real battleground of ideas.  Although, admittedly, there is still a significant proportion of Muslims who don't even use the internet.

    What I find interesting is that those who engage in dawah/evangelising activities are the ones most likely to have their beliefs/views challenged.  So dawah is a double-edged sword for Islam (and other religions). Afro Bring it on!  Here in Leicester, there was a dawah stall every Saturday in the city centre.  Obviously, as an apostate I would not go.  But atheists/secularists who have never been Muslim should be encouraged to challenge these guys.  It should be easy because most of these guys are Salafis.  So you can go to http://www.salafimanhaj.com and check out the intolerant/irrational dogma, before you go and challenge them.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #79 - May 27, 2010, 01:11 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on May 27, 2010, 11:18 AM
    Abu, you are almost Agnostic! I think!

    He believes he isnt, but doesnt know for sure.  

    He's said that already in a more roundabout fashion, and I could dig out the quotes if I could be bothered.  Which of course, by definition, means he is.  However I think a better definition currently would be an agnostic theist.

    Contrary to what others might think, I think he will stay there for some time yet.  Old AbuY is a tough nut to crack, and it takes a lot for him to budge an inch.  He's an independent honest thinker who's not afraid to do things his own way, and thats what I like about him  Afro
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #80 - May 27, 2010, 01:23 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 27, 2010, 09:50 AM
    I believe most of the motivation to debate others comes not from some altruistic desire to 'enlighten' them, but to convince oneself one is 'right' and to make oneself feel more secure.

    I can't speak for everyone, but I personally disagree. I usually view debating as a group effort to achieve enlightenment. I actually prefer being proven wrong than right. If I'm proven right, I feel like the debate was useless and I got nothing out of it. I stop debating something when I believe my beliefs on it are set in stone and there's no way of changing them. But, for example, as a vegetarian, I still try to make people people convince me that there's nothing wrong with eating meat.
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #81 - May 27, 2010, 01:36 PM
    Yes, and also debate here is not just about one-to-one arguments about proving who is right, its about the other silent readers who are coming to form their own opinions.  And there are more of those that you might think sometimes.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #82 - May 27, 2010, 01:38 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 01:36 PM
    Yes, and also debate here is not just about one-to-one arguments about proving who is right, its about the other silent readers who are coming to form their own opinions.  And there are more of those that you might think sometimes.


    For me the purpose of an argument is to reach an agreement, not to prove I am right.  If I am proven wrong I am happy, because I've just had some ignorance removed from my brain.  I typically won't argue unless I believe I am right though Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #83 - May 27, 2010, 01:42 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 01:00 PM
    I certainly didnt as this stance doesnt make sense to me, but not sure about others.  I just assumed Islam was right, and any doubts I had were due to satan or uneducated mullahs at play.  Although I thought Hassan said he did think this way towards his later stages as a Muslim, didnt he?

    While we are on this subject can you help me with the following:

    1) How do we even know if Allah wants us to be good?  Or not to slay people who are against Islam?  Or that we are to use our own intelligence to find the answers?
    2) Where does that leave you with things that are seen are characteristically Islamic e.g. consuming alcohol & pork, circumcision, having multiple wives?



    Yes I think Hassan, debunker and many other Muslims beleived/believe that some of the Qur'an was meant to be for the Prophet's time and some of it was meant to be for all-time. The problem I have with that is that if this were the case then the Qur'an would have clearly pointed out which was which to avoid confusion. The fact that it doesn't, and given the verses we came across in another thread stating that the Qur'an has been inspired so that Muhammad may warn those in Mecca and the cities surrounding it, it's possible that all of it was only meant to be for the Prophet's time and place.

    The Qur'an was an example of God telling the people that they should do good. It told them that they should forbid evil and do good. It told them that they should stop following the ignorant ways of the past and move forward. It gave a moral guidance that was suitable for that time but at the same time told us that we should always use our faculties of intelligence and reason. Indeed the Qur'an talks about God sending better revelations every now and then to replace the scripture that came before it - perhaps indicating that it is a progressive learning procress for mankind. I beleive that it was always God's intention that we evolve into beings who can think and judge what is right/wrong using what He has already given us (which is perhaps why He describes revelation as a 'mercy' in the Qur'an).  

    Therefore we know from these examples of Qur'an that it is God's wish that we do good - and that we must use the gifts he has given us (reason and intelligence), to realise what is good/bad. I beleive that all humans posess God-given souls - and it's from our souls that we posess the knowledge and drive to do good. Sometimes what is 'good' is a grey-area, but I don't think God would get upset if we get these wrong.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #84 - May 27, 2010, 01:43 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 01:00 PM
    I think its a shame that the site was called council of ex-muslims to begin with, judging by its current membership it should be named Council for Ex-Theists & Heretics, who all suffer the same problems as ex-muslims and benefit from it for the same reason i.e. a safe sanctuary to openly discuss their non-orthodox views without being closed down by the religious mafia.  But then it is affiliated to CEMB and still provides that useful function for everybody, so thats where we are I guess.

    And if truth be known, each of these groups here has a function in meeting imo the main objective of this forum, and that is counteracting the threat of religious bigotry.
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #85 - May 27, 2010, 01:58 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 01:42 PM
    we must use the gifts he has given us (reason and intelligence), to realise what is good/bad.


    Now you see, this is where you have a problem.  Good/bad is merely group survival.  Killing each other is bad because it is bad for the group, but what about things which aren't relevant to group survival?

    Is wearing a hijab good or bad?
    What about a Niqaab?
    What about a Burqa?
    What about theft? What about amputating the hands of thieves?
    What about pornography, or prostitution?
    Alcohol, drugs, cigarettes?
    What about lying? Sometimes it is good, sometimes it is bad.

    These are not "god given" truths we know about otherwise we would all be in agreement around the globe.  They are culturally dependent, what is good for one group is bad for another. Can you really believe that eating a pig is forbidden yet eating a baby chimp is okay?

    What in my opinion is certainly "bad" is training people to stop using their minds; getting them to delegate important decisions to a being they have no way of proving exists rather than making important decisions about what is moral/immoral based on an ever changing society.  And that is exactly why god would never create a set of immutable laws, because the scenario is ever changing.

    Is it okay to kill? Yes, sometimes it is, but I will avoid it at almost any cost.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #86 - May 27, 2010, 02:02 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 01:42 PM
    Yes I think Hassan, debunker and many other Muslims beleived/believe that some of the Qur'an was meant to be for the Prophet's time and some of it was meant to be for all-time. The problem I have with that is that if this were the case then the Qur'an would have clearly pointed out which was which to avoid confusion.

    OK, I'm with you so far

    Quote

    a moral guidance that was suitable for that time but at the same time told us that we should always use our faculties of intelligence and reason.

    Arent you contradicting yourself here?  If you are saying the Quran was a message for a time and a place, then why are you using the same scriptures to define what you should do now?  In which case your stance is no different to every other muslim?
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  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #87 - May 27, 2010, 02:11 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 01:58 PM
    Now you see, this is where you have a problem.  Good/bad is merely group survival.  


    I fundamentally disagree with you here. good/bad is much more than just group suvival. our opposing views here is what makes us different.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #88 - May 27, 2010, 02:16 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 02:11 PM
    I fundamentally disagree with you here. good/bad is much more than just group suvival. our opposing views here is what makes us different.


    I didn't say opposing views, I said good/bad.

    During a feeding frenzy a piranha will not attack other piranhas, that's group survival.  But if there is an ultimate good/bad why is it not obvious? Why does the answer to "Is this good or bad" depend on which social group you ask?  If it were an absolute truth from god it would be obvious and we would all agree with it.

    The Hawaiians used to have more laws about the distribution of food than they did about promiscuous sex, religion changed that the opposite way around.  If it was an inbred human truth why was it bad not to share food but good to share your sexual partner?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
     Reply #89 - May 27, 2010, 02:20 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 02:02 PM
    OK, I'm with you so far
    Arent you contradicting yourself here?  If you are saying the Quran was a message for a time and a place, then why are you using the same scriptures to define what you should do now?  In which case your stance is no different to every other muslim?


    I already said we can use Qur'an and previous scriptures as examples of God telling us that he wants us to do good - but that it's from our God-given soul and intelligence that we instinctively know to do good and reject evil.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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