Bored of Islam blah blah blah...

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #90 - May 27, 2010, 02:29 PM

Quote from: ateapotist on May 27, 2010, 01:06 PM
What I find interesting is that those who engage in dawah/evangelising activities are the ones most likely to have their beliefs/views challenged. So dawah is a double-edged sword for Islam (and other religions). Bring it on! Here in Leicester, there was a dawah stall every Saturday in the city centre. Obviously, as an apostate I would not go. But atheists/secularists who have never been Muslim should be encouraged to challenge these guys. It should be easy because most of these guys are Salafis. So you can go to http://www.salafimanhaj.com and check out the intolerant/irrational dogma, before you go and challenge them.

Those street dawah-ists don't debate and discuss though. They use evasion, ad hominem, tu quoque, and when that gets cut through, they tend to just raise their voice, and become declarative, declaiming that this is the truth because it is, blah blah blah

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #91 - May 27, 2010, 02:35 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 02:16 PM
During a feeding frenzy a piranha will not attack other piranhas, that's group survival. But if there is an ultimate good/bad why is it not obvious? Why does the answer to "Is this good or bad" depend on which social group you ask? If it were an absolute truth from god it would be obvious and we would all agree with it.

That doesn't mean that there is no true proposition. You could ask one group how old the earth is, and they'd tell you it's 6,000 years old. You could ask another, and they'd say closer to 4 billion. One of these groups will be closer to the truth than the other.

Just because people disagree and dispute doesn't mean that there's no true answer to the question, or that one answer isn't closer than any other.
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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #92 - May 27, 2010, 02:36 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 02:20 PM
I already said we can use Qur'an and previous scriptures as examples of God telling us that he wants us to do good - but that it's from our God-given soul and intelligence that we instinctively know to do good and reject evil.

Previous scriptures? The Jews didn't eat pork. The Quran says that god didn't forbid anything for them and that they forbade it to themselves, but now pork is forbidden? In what way is that a clear message? In what way should one use their intelligence to understand that?

And what about those people who didn't have scriptures? To go back to the Hawaiians, why were there morals the opposite of those in Islam? If there were such a thing as absolute good/bad then surely god would just instill us with a gut feeling for which was which and then give us the free will to choose? Why is your gut feeling dependent on where you were raised and by whom?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #93 - May 27, 2010, 02:37 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on May 27, 2010, 02:35 PM
That doesn't mean that there is no true proposition. You could ask one group how old the earth is, and they'd tell you it's 6,000 years old. You could ask another, and they'd say closer to 4 billion. One of these groups will be closer to the truth than the other.

Just because people disagree and dispute doesn't mean that there's no true answer to the question, or that one answer isn't closer than any other.

The age of the Earth is not a question of morality. My point is that morality is ALWAYS subjective to where your culture, so how can there be an absolute truth, and if there is one why doesn't everyone know what it is?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #94 - May 27, 2010, 02:41 PM

lol, it's funny how this thread has turned into a serious debate about religion

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #95 - May 27, 2010, 02:44 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 02:41 PM
lol, it's funny how this thread has turned into a serious debate about religion

Yes, it's Islam, it infects us

My point in summary is this. Without a global sense of morality instilled within us naturally we need absolutely clear guidance. If the Quran is not 100% clear guidance then it is not a document defining morality.

Argue your way out of that one

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #96 - May 27, 2010, 02:58 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 02:37 PM
The age of the Earth is not a question of morality. My point is that morality is ALWAYS subjective to where your culture, so how can there be an absolute truth, and if there is one why doesn't everyone know what it is?

My point with the age of the earth example was simply to show that just because different groups have different opinions it doesn't mean that there's no answer that's any better or more consistent than another.

Different groups invariably believe different things, cultural and tribal prejudices and so forth. That doesn't negate the fact that some predisposition and prejudices will be ill-founded or utterly baseless.

Different groups have different moral standards for various reasons, but there are also human universals, like the prohibition of murder and theft.

The fact that there are these universals suggests that there are basic axioms of morality that all people, in all places have some kind of access to, or understanding of. It may therefore be possible to discern what these axioms are, and to expel the unjustified and arbitrary cultural assumptions.

See what I wrote in the 'right, wrong' thread if you want to know more about my opinions on this subject and have the time to read it

But also, if you're saying that morality is entirely subjective, then you must concede that no moral idea, no matter how utterly whacky and senseless, is any worse or better than any other.

Complete moral relativism is entirely unworkable and necessarily absurd, and runs completely contrary to human intuition.
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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #97 - May 27, 2010, 03:01 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 02:44 PM
Yes, it's Islam, it infects us

My point in summary is this. Without a global sense of morality instilled within us naturally we need absolutely clear guidance. If the Quran is not 100% clear guidance then it is not a document defining morality.

Argue your way out of that one

i honestly think we are on different pages dude - so let's stop driving each other crazy!

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #98 - May 27, 2010, 03:08 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 03:01 PM
i honestly think we are on different pages dude - so let's stop driving each other crazy!

If we are on different pages then let's get onto the same page.

If god didn't instill into us an absolute morality, and the Quran doesn't provide that, then what for is the Quran?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #99 - May 27, 2010, 03:11 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on May 27, 2010, 02:58 PM
My point with the age of the earth example was simply to show that just because different groups have different opinions it doesn't mean that there's no answer that's any better or more consistent than another.

Zebedee, the reason your example was incorrect is because the Earth does have an exact age whether we know it or not; whereas the purpose of my post is to demonstrate that there clearly is no such thing as absolute morality - so there is nothing to be closer to or further from.

Morality is completely objective, it's just that some morals are more successful than others. The ones where it was okay to kill your children when you were bored tended to be less successful, whereas the ones where you don't kill your own were more successful - but this proves that killing itself is not immoral, because a group which doesn't kill its own yet will kill members of another group during times of limited resources will prevail.

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #100 - May 27, 2010, 03:16 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 02:41 PM
lol, it's funny how this thread has turned into a serious debate about religion

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #101 - May 27, 2010, 03:20 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 03:08 PM
If god didn't instill into us an absolute morality, and the Quran doesn't provide that, then what for is the Quran?

Lesson in history?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #102 - May 27, 2010, 03:22 PM

I know he didn't argue for an absolute morality. What I am asking is this.

If the Quran is not absolutely clear which parts where for the time and which parts forever AND we obviously don't have a built in morality, how are we to know what is right or wrong, and more importantly what was the purpose of the Quran? Was it just a book for its time which should now be completely ignored?

Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 03:20 PM
Lesson in history?

If the lessons no longer apply then what?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #103 - May 27, 2010, 03:22 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 02:20 PM
I already said we can use Qur'an and previous scriptures as examples of God telling us that he wants us to do good - but that it's from our God-given soul and intelligence that we instinctively know to do good and reject evil.

So what does your God-given soul and intelligence tell you about eating a ham sandwich? Is it good or bad?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #104 - May 27, 2010, 03:24 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 03:22 PM
If the lessons no longer apply then what?

Then read philosophy & science instead.

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #105 - May 27, 2010, 03:26 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 03:08 PM
If we are on different pages then let's get onto the same page.

If god didn't instill into us an absolute morality, and the Quran doesn't provide that, then what for is the Quran?

I already said 2 million times that the Qur'an was meant to be a guidance only for the time and place it was revealed - a time and place where it's guidance was perhaps necessary. Since morality changes over time and humans learn for the better over time then that same guidance becomes no longer applicable. Perhaps humanity has learnt and evolved to the stage now where we can decide on what's right or wrong without the need for revelations and scripture - perhaps this is what God always intended.

I think humans do have an installed sense of what is right and wrong although I fully accept there are grey-areas. I agree with what Zebedee said:

Quote
The fact that there are these universals suggests that there are basic axioms of morality that all people, in all places have some kind of access to, or understanding of. It may therefore be possible to discern what these axioms are, and to expel the unjustified and arbitrary cultural assumptions.

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #106 - May 27, 2010, 03:30 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 03:26 PM
I already said 2 million times that the Qur'an was meant to be a guidance only for the time and place it was revealed - a time and place where it's guidance was perhaps necessary. Since morality changes over time and humans learn for the better over time then that same guidance becomes no longer applicable. Perhaps humanity has learnt and evolved to the stage now where we can decide on what's right or wrong without the need for revelations and scripture - perhaps this is what God always intended.

I think humans do have an installed sense of what is right and wrong although I fully accept there are grey-areas. I agree with what Zebedee said:

If god is real then I NEED guidance. I have no idea what god wants me to do, I don't even have a reason to believe in God, so why should those people get guidance and not me? Why were they more deserving than the billions of people who have lived after them?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #107 - May 27, 2010, 03:30 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 03:26 PM
I already said 2 million times that the Qur'an was meant to be a guidance only for the time and place it was revealed - a time and place where it's guidance was perhaps necessary.

I think what Rationalizer was asking was what is the use for the Quran now.

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #108 - May 27, 2010, 03:32 PM

Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 03:30 PM
I think what Rationalizer was asking what is the use for the Quran now.

My questions are twofold.

1: What use is the Quran now if it does not guide us?
2: Without guidance and with a lack of absolute morality how can we know what is right?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #109 - May 27, 2010, 03:34 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 03:30 PM
If god is real then I NEED guidance.  I have no idea what god wants me to do, I don't even have a reason to believe in God, so why should those people get guidance and not me? Why were they more deserving than the billions of people who have lived after them?

you do have the tools required for guidance - your brain and your soul - even though you think you don't have one (a soul that is, hehe).

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #110 - May 27, 2010, 03:36 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 27, 2010, 03:34 PM
you do have the tools required for guidance - your brain and your soul - even though you think you don't have one (a soul that is, hehe).

No, that's my entire point. I have a brain for certain, and for the sake of argument let's say I have a soul. But we don't have guidance. If we did then morality would be the same worldwide, and it isn't. So we don't have guidance do we? If you think we do then please explain the worldwide cultural discrepancies to me.

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #111 - May 27, 2010, 03:39 PM

Let us know your thoughts on these 2 questions please

1) What does your God-given soul and intelligence tell you about eating a ham sandwich?
2) What is the use for the Quran now?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #112 - May 27, 2010, 03:41 PM

You suck Islame, instead of asking about tangible things and suitable questions, you ask about sandwiches of all things?
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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #113 - May 27, 2010, 03:43 PM

Quote from: j4m3s2 on May 27, 2010, 03:41 PM
You suck Islame, instead of asking about tangible things and suitable questions, you ask about sandwiches of all things?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #114 - May 27, 2010, 03:43 PM

Quote from: j4m3s2 on May 27, 2010, 03:41 PM
You suck Islame, instead of asking about tangible things and suitable questions, you ask about sandwiches of all things?

It's an excellent question.

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #115 - May 27, 2010, 03:45 PM

Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 03:43 PM
From small acorns, great oaks trees grow

No genius, because what would really happen is he would feel confident by your stupid lame question, answer it comprehensively and then you would nit pick and choose some other small and retarded thing by his second answer. It would then turn into a debate of the petties (length subject to conditions) and it would end nowhere

Instead, you should have grabbed him by the balls in the first place with a serious and much more suitable question, he would struggle from the beginning and you would be the clear victor even before the debate started
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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #116 - May 27, 2010, 03:47 PM

Such as?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #117 - May 27, 2010, 03:50 PM

Quote from: j4m3s2 on May 27, 2010, 03:45 PM
No genius, because what would really happen is he would feel confident by your stupid lame question, answer it comprehensively and then you would nit pick and choose some other small and retarded thing by his second answer. It would then turn into a debate of the petties (length subject to conditions) and it would end nowhere

Instead, you should have grabbed him by the balls in the first place with a serious and much more suitable question, he would struggle from the beginning and you would be the clear victor even before the debate started

It's not about winning, it's about mutual understanding.

If the Quran was for the time, should we eat pork?

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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #118 - May 27, 2010, 03:51 PM

Quote from: IsLame on May 27, 2010, 03:47 PM
Such as?

Do your own homework
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Re: Bored of Islam blah blah blah...
Reply #119 - May 27, 2010, 03:52 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 27, 2010, 03:36 PM
So we don't have guidance do we? If you think we do then please explain the worldwide cultural discrepancies to me.

Same question as this I guess

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