Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #300 - June 03, 2010, 10:01 PM

Sorry I don't understand Urdu, but I think I get the gist.

Just reviewed military spending table: Israel's annual budget = 2.86~ x Pakistan's

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #301 - June 03, 2010, 10:06 PM

Why Some Conflicts Are Ignored

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People tend to think Palestine matters. Irish nationalists paint Palestinian flags onto street murals in Belfast. Spanish school children send the Israeli embassy letters demanding an end to ‘murders’ in Palestine. People with no personal connection to Palestine care deeply about events there.

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In politics commentators wonder aloud if the Israel-Palestine conflict could spawn others or spread out of control into a wider Middle Eastern war. Al Qaeda have already blamed American support for Israel for inspiring the 9/11 attacks, and US national security advisor James L Jones said that if President Obama were to solve just one problem it should be this conflict. Media tend to agree; The Australian newspaper devoted more coverage to Israel-Palestine than to the entire African continent in 2007.

So while there is great disagreement on solutions to the Israel-Palestine conflict, there is a consensus that it is a conflict of global importance.

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In terms of actual destruction, however, it is not. Over the last decade political violence in Palestine has killed almost 6,000 people. With a population around 4 million, this gives Palestine an average total death rate from political violence of roughly 17 deaths per 100,000 population every year. This is lower than the murder rate of Miami; peacetime New Orleans managed to clock up 55 murders for every 100,000 population in 2008.

Of course Palestine experiences occasional bursts of severe violence. The 2008-2009 winter invasion of Gaza killed 1,385 people in a few weeks, giving a shocking death toll of 338 per 100,000 in Gaza.

This, while disturbing, is still insignificant compared with a number of contemporary conflicts. In the months following the Gaza invasion, around 15,500 people were killed in Sri Lanka as the government defeated the Tamil Tigers. Almost seven times as many people have been killed in Sri Lankan political violence since 2000 than Palestine.

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Sri Lanka is hardly alone, there are examples of military conflict worse than Israel-Palestine all over the world. A civil war in Nepal from 1996-2006 cost the country around 12,700 lives. Burma has had on-off ethnic rebellions since 1948, with hundreds of thousands of people displaced in the last fifteen years. Tens of thousands have died in Chechnya’s independence struggle with Russia. Mexico has lost 22,700 people in four years just from fighting drug gangs in their own country.

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And then there is Africa. A 2008 UN estimate put the number killed in Darfur over the previous two years at 300,000. The Liberian civil war killed 150,000. The Algerian civil war killed another 150,000. Eritrea and Ethiopia fought until 2000 with unknown tens of thousands dead. The Somali civil war destroyed its entire state structure, killing up to 400,000.

All these pale by comparison with the Second Congo War, a gigantic conflict spilling across boundaries, absorbing eight different African countries and killing more than have died in any single conflict since World War II. One estimate puts the death toll as high as 5.4 million, others estimate under 3 million.

Suddenly Palestine’s little flashes of violence seem rather insignificant.

Still, the conflict over Palestine is not just about the number killed in combat, but also matters of justice, and the poor living conditions created by the conflict. Justice is a little difficult to measure but poor living conditions produce measurable numbers; Palestine has quite a high infant mortality rate for example, 23.6 deaths for every 1,000 live births, compared with 20 in Egypt, 12 in Lebanon and only 4 in Israel. The Democratic Republic of Congo, on the other hand, has an infant mortality rate five times worse than Palestine – 126 per every 1,000.

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Palestinian life expectancy is actually fairly good, higher than Egypt, Turkey or Iran, and about two decades higher than DR Congo. But life in Palestine causes outrage around the world, while Congo does not. Minor clashes in Palestine fill newspapers; outright carnage in Congo does not. What causes this discrepancy?

............................

The middle three of Hawkins’s six factors – ability to identify and sympathise, and simplicity – are related to media’s ability to interpret conflicts in terms of wider, simple narratives. The ideal conflict for journalists has an obvious bad guy oppressing a peaceful, familiar underdog. This, perhaps, partly explains why Tibet’s national struggle attracts such positive attention while China’s Muslim-majority province Xinjiang does not. Communist China was already considered suspicious, while Buddhism had avoided the negative press increasingly associated with Islam.

..............................
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‘It has been shown that people tend to filter and interpret incoming information to fit in with and reinforce their pre-existing views (thus, a newspaper article can somehow manage to attract cries of bias from both sides of a conflict),’ says Hawkins. ‘When the information is already pre-filtered in such an extreme way (so much coverage on a particular conflict and so little on others) this makes it all the more easy for people to see that that particular conflict is the only one that happens, or that matters.

‘In this sense, I think it not only feeds back to extremists, but also that it helps to ‘create’ extremists on the issue, who, without such saturation coverage, may not have felt so strongly about the issue. This is one major reason I think that there is such an active online debate scene on the Israel-Palestinian conflict.’

By focusing on Israel, Iraq and Afghanistan, media and commentators are giving strength to disturbing simplistic narratives that emphasise a perceived chasm between Muslims and Westerners. The extremists are benefiting from this, while moderates find it impossible to explain the complexity of global events.
..........................................................

If we want to end conflict in Palestine, perhaps we need to start discussing conflict in Congo.

Shane Leavy - writes at http://globalpolitician.com/26439-wars I only pasted part of it read it all at the link.,

I can add to that 100 or so Ahmadi Muslim brutally murdered last week by Allah loving Muslim soldiers in the land of pure. Off course no one talks that on international level.. 100 people killed in Mosque is insignificant but 9 red neck brain dead Muslims got killed on that Loilta ship by trying to fight of those 25 year old IDF soldiers in dark in high seas and every one is crying with

Freedom Viva lolita.. titilato freedom..freedom..

You need to have big mouth to do that., And Muhammad's Islam does the best job of generating big mouth and big beards..

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #302 - June 03, 2010, 10:07 PM

Interesting table, surprised at how low Pakistan is and how high Oman is @ 10.7% (after rearranging the table by % of GDP on military spending) - what a waste of money Eritrea spends 21% of it government budget on the military and its population is starving

Quote from: in order of % of GDP
93 Eritrea 231,000,000 20.9%
36 Oman 3,739,000,000 10.7%
8 Saudi Arabia 33,136,000,000 9.3%
75 Georgia 651,000,000 9.2%
16 Israel 12,135,000,000 8.6%
62 Jordan 973,000,000 6.2%
22 Colombia 6,568,000,000 6.0%
61 Lebanon 1,067,000,000 5.1%
69 Yemen 801,000,000 5.1%
135 Burundi 35,000,000 4.9%
23 Syria 6,300,000,000 4.4%
57 Sudan 1,278,000,000 4.4%
25 Singapore 5,831,000,000 4.1%
139 Djibouti 30,000,000 4.1%
1 United States 548,531,000,000 4.0%
37 Kuwait 3,622,000,000 3.9%
53 Angola 1,508,000,000 3.9%
143 Guinea-Bissau 12,000,000 3.8%
88 Brunei 266,000,000 3.6%
6 Russian Federation 38,238,000,000 3.5%
28 Chile 4,778,000,000 3.4%
73 Azerbaijan 697,000,000 3.4%
76 Bahrain 582,000,000 3.4%
19 Greece 9,706,000,000 3.3%
47 Morocco 2,358,000,000 3.2%
30 Pakistan 4,217,000,000 3.1%

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #303 - June 03, 2010, 10:25 PM

@yeezevee: That was a really good post, very interesting numbers there.
@IsLame: Yes I was surprised to see KSA No. 3 by %GDP.

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #304 - June 03, 2010, 10:32 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on June 03, 2010, 08:53 PM
I agree with this 4th highest user rated comment:

Thoughts ??

I hate it when people reduce all Palestinian resistance and insurgency into Islamic fanaticism.
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #305 - June 03, 2010, 10:39 PM

Yes, fair point indeed, I agree, point taken.

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #306 - June 03, 2010, 10:48 PM

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Islamic fundamentalism is not a factor. It's just not the main reason. Palestinians have NO COUNTRY and NO SOVEREIGNTY. They are UNDER OCCUPATION. The official title is the "Palestinian National Authority" not state or country.

Israel IMO is a state that should not have been created, at least not in the way it was. That doesn't mean the solution now lies in just dissolving it. On the contrary, I recognize Israel's right to a peaceful sovereign existence. I also blame most Arab countries which haven't recognize Israel. But accepting historic reality should help in gaining a new perspective and seeing solutions.
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #307 - June 03, 2010, 11:38 PM

A fresh report from the Gaza strip by the Danish TV2 reporter :

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Wednesday, 2nd June 2010, at. 12:01 /

the situation in Gaza: the problem is lack of work rather than lack of food

GAZA (01/06/2010): To judge from some media, the situation in Gaza is desperate, everything is about to collapse, the community is on the brink of disaster or at the level of the third world.

Israel's closure of the border with the Gaza Strip has been going on for three years. Since the Palestinian coalition government collapsed, and Hamas during the ensuing civil war threw Fatah out. Since then the Palestinian community's immediate collaps has been prophesied numerous times in the media. We hear sometimes, that the Palestinians have nothing to eat. The UN must from time to time to stop food distribution, either because their stocks are running low, or because they cannot get diesel for their trucks and therefore cannot deliver the food and so on.

Yesterday I drove into the Gaza Strip. I no longer do so as often as before, because while it once was just a quick flying visit by car going in in the morning and out again late afternoon, it is now so slow a process that when I finally go down here, I usually stay about a week. It is also a regular occurrence, that the Israelis close the Gaza Strip to foreign journalists, so if you happen to be there you are unable to get out for some days or weeks, which is why I don´t go there as often as I used to.

This time, I had expected to see real suffering, because with all the fuss in recent days to bring some tons of humanitarian relief in - so much so that people actually sacrificed their lives for it – there had to be a really desperate situation in the Gaza Strip. No food. Long queues in front of the UN food stocks. Hungry children with food bowls. But that was not the picture that greeted me.

When yesterday morning I drove through Gaza City, I was immediately surprised that there was almost as many traffic jams, as there always has been. Is there not a shortage of fuel? Apparently not. They are using it with abandon. Gasoline is not even rationed.

Many shops were closed yesterday, Hamas has declared a general strike in protest against Israel's brutal and deadly attack on the Turkish flotilla with pro-Palestinian activists on board. So it was difficult to estimate how many products were on the shelves. I therefore went to the Shati refugee camp, also known as Beach Camp, which has become entirely surrounded by Gaza City and immersed in it. Here is one of Gaza's many vegetable markets that sell much more than just fruits and vegetables.

I cannot say whether, in better times, there has been a larger range of product on sale than there was yesterday. But there was certainly no shortage of vegetables, fruits or any other ordinary, basic foods. Tomatoes, cucumbers, corn, watermelons, potatoes - mountains of them at the many stalls.

I must admit I was a little surprised, because when I call my Palestinian friends down here, they tell me about all the problems and shortages, so I expected that the crisis was a little more obvious.

And the first woman we interviewed in the market confirmed this strange, contradictory, negative outlook:
"We have nothing," she said. We need everything! Food, beverages ... everything! "
She was not the least bothered by the fact, that she stood between mountains of vegetables, fruit, eggs, poultry and fish, while she uttered this doomsday prophecy.
Another woman, Rifka Abu Nahal, who originally comes from the rural area was more in touch with reality. She says that a really crucial problem is over consumption of water, which makes the water table sink. This means that the Mediterranean's salt water penetrates into and contaminate the groundwater, which already has become too salty. This makes it both unpleasant to drink, and ultimately it will destroy the farmland.
She goes on to say that it is the bad economy that is the biggest problem.
"There is a high unemployment rate.. This means that many people have no income, but must live on charity from their relatives. So they cannot afford to buy the available goods. They can stand and look at the meat, but they cannot buy it, "she explains.

What probably will surprise many is, that only vegetables are grown here in the Gaza Strip. And with the exception of watermelon all the fruits come from none other than ... Israel!
Yousuf al-Assad Yazgy owns a fruit and vegetable stall here in the market. All his fruit is imported from Israel.

"It's not all fruit and vegetables that come from Israel. Ours do. Not much fruit is grown in the Gaza Strip. Mostly tomatoes, potatoes and vegetables are grown. So in my stall the vegetables and watermelon are from Gaza. All the fruit comes from across the border from Israel, "he explains, but he says that there may be long periods when the border is closed, and no fruit comes in.

Another supply route is the tunnels down in the southern part of the Gaza Strip under the border with Egypt. A very large proportion of goods in the grocery stores here in Gaza come from Egypt and are smuggled in.

On the way out of the Shati camp we stop at a small grocery store sales. Nothing fancy, just a small, humble local shop. The proprietor´s son, Mohammed Abu Nada, who is minding the shop, says that they would not be able to do business if it were not for contraband goods from Egypt.

He takes us on a brief tour of the shelves and points out everything that comes from Egypt. It turns out to be much more than half of the goods. I would estimate 75-80 per cent. Several other products - including long-life UHT milk - comes from Israel, but has also been smuggled through tunnels from Egypt.

The detour via the Sinai desert and the tunnels do not, of course, make the goods cheaper, which Mohammed Abu Nada is well aware of.

The products are more expensive, he says. Many people cannot afford to buy them, or can only buy certain things sometimes. But still, that even such a small, poor-looking grocery store on the outskirts of a refugee camp has so many relatively expensive smuggled goods on the shelves, nevertheless shows that some customers at least can afford to buy them. Otherwise, the shopowner would of course not invest in them.

I have not written this story to postulate that there are no problems in the Gaza Strip, because that would be untrue. There are problems. Many problems indeed. But it is not lack of food, which primarily concern people down here. The biggest problem is the lack of jobs and a sustainable domestic economy.

There is a shortage of building materials, cement and everything within the construction industry. This lack, however, has sparked a whole new industry. Poor Palestinians dig through the many empty lots and the ruins of destroyed houses and factory buildings which the war has left. Here are all kinds of things that can be reused. Even many of the stones and the concrete can be utilized.

But a genuine Palestinian economic development, as their brethren in the West Bank currently enjoy with help from the West, would do much to improve the situation in the Gaza Strip. And this economic development must come from within. There will never again be a situation where up to 150,000 workers from the Gaza Strip can work in Israel and bring money back to help the local economy. (Something Israel was actually also criticized for). The wave of terrorism and suicide bombings in the 90s and beginning of 2000 put and end to that.

But to get such an economic development, with help from the West, going it will require Israeli cooperation. And it also means that the Hamas government must soften its total and unflinching refusal to negotiate with Israel or even recognize its right to exist. And you actually feel that - although there is a very long way to go – there are tendencies in some circles of Hamas, to show greater flexibility.

To cultivate this wing of the Islamists, it is probably also necessary that we in the West soften our attitude of total rejection of Hamas. Even our own Danish diplomats in the region have, in common with other EU diplomats, had no contacts with Hamas. A dialogue is necessary.

Unless there is some sort of defusing of the situation, the danger is, that the more militant and fanatical jihadist groups that are already emerging in the Gaza Strip, begin to challenge Hamas and force the organization to abandon all possibilities of political compromises, and instead protect its Islamist credentials.

http://blog.tv2.dk/steffen-jensen.tv2/

As to Steffen Jensen´s claim that food shortage is the least of the Gazans problems seem to be substantiated by the this survey by the Economist :

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #308 - June 03, 2010, 11:56 PM

Quote from: atheist.pk on June 01, 2010, 08:49 AM
"Flotillas and the Wars of Public Opinion"
by George Friedman
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100531_flotillas_and_wars_public_opinion?utm_source=GWeekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=100531&utm_content=readmore&elq=ec0dbb5abd264ff39b3645c5d73e93b4

I heart stratfor

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #309 - June 04, 2010, 12:11 AM

I am more-or-less supportive of Israel. I don't agree with everything the government or military does, but I understand they have a right to defend themselves and they obviously need to take that extremely seriously; I don't blame them.

A reader's comment in our newspaper said that a lot of this has to do with Hamas propaganda, he said that Egypt actually imposes more sanctions on Gaza than the Israelis, and that 70% of the required things come through Israel. I don't know the facts, but it seems all too easy for people to blame the easiest thing that they can.

My problem with the Israeli government or this sort of thing in general is that it transports those problems elsewhere. A couple of people in our newspaper sympathized with the plight of Hamas, and I think it's important not to get complacent with terrorism like that. Ultimately, the regular day-to-day person is the one effected when governments / military / politics play their games. :\
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #310 - June 04, 2010, 01:02 AM

Why don't we call a spade a spade? The flotilla doesn't have the main objective to bring aid to the Gaza strip ( there are already ways that can do that) but to turn public opinion on Israel. This isn't condoning or condemning what they did, but let's call it was it is.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #311 - June 04, 2010, 03:54 AM

Not mutually exclusive objectives, are they?

Saturday, June 5 is Global Day of Action for Gaza. http://bdsdayofaction.net/
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #312 - June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 03, 2010, 10:48 PM
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Islamic fundamentalism is not a factor. It's just not the main reason. Palestinians have NO COUNTRY and NO SOVEREIGNTY. They are UNDER OCCUPATION. The official title is the "Palestinian National Authority" not state or country.

Israel IMO is a state that should not have been created, at least not in the way it was. That doesn't mean the solution now lies in just dissolving it. On the contrary, I recognize Israel's right to a peaceful sovereign existence. I also blame most Arab countries which haven't recognize Israel. But accepting historic reality should help in gaining a new perspective and seeing solutions.

Why Israel should not be created? That has always been the land of the Jews. I may not understand Judaism or any other religion but why not let Jews have a land to call their own? Dont you muslims have over 50 muslims nations to call your own and i'm pretty sure all of those have been taken by Force and none of them give equal opportunity to it's minorities. Jews have always been discriminated against whether by the christians or by muslims. Christians have always blamed them for killing their Christ (assuming Christ was a real person) and Muslims hate them because Muhammad tells them to hate the Jews and Christians and every other dirty kaffir. Face it Jews have always been easy targets and they have always come back the land of their ancestors. BTW, Israel is the size of New Jersey. There is no occupation, this is blatant lie. Sure muslims came to Israel (through jihad) but that land has always been the land of the Jews and they were always more than willing to share and live in peace (unlike muslims). There is no Palestine, these "Palestinians" are refugees of mostly Jordan so Israel and Lebanon took them in and these "Palestinians" even went back to Jordon to overthrow King Hussian but he had them slaughtered which was called Black September:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan.
Israel has a right to exist. They have provided more science and technology and helped more human beings than all of the history or present state of muslim countries combined. They have earned respect in this world because they worked their asses off. While today Muslims/Arabs are fighting to tell the rest of the world that not all of them are terrorists.
Hope I didnt offend too many people.

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #313 - June 04, 2010, 04:10 AM

I thought this was a good video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZprVPKi-W6s

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #314 - June 04, 2010, 04:20 AM

I think it's BS propaganda.
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #315 - June 04, 2010, 04:26 AM

ofcourse you do.

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #316 - June 04, 2010, 04:30 AM

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
Why Israel should not be created? That has always been the land of the Jews. I may not understand Judaism or any other religion but why not let Jews have a land to call their own? Dont you muslims have over 50 muslims nations to call your own and i'm pretty sure all of those have been taken by Force and none of them give equal opportunity to it's minorities. Jews have always been discriminated against whether by the christians or by muslims. Christians have always blamed them for killing their Christ (assuming Christ was a real person) and Muslims hate them because Muhammad tells them to hate the Jews and Christians and every other dirty kaffir. Face it Jews have always been easy targets and they have always come back the land of their ancestors. BTW, Israel is the size of New Jersey. There is no occupation, this is blatant lie. Sure muslims came to Israel (through jihad) but that land has always been the land of the Jews and they were always more than willing to share and live in peace (unlike muslims). There is no Palestine, these "Palestinians" are refugees of mostly Jordan so Israel and Lebanon took them in and these "Palestinians" even went back to Jordon to overthrow King Hussian but he had them slaughtered which was called Black September:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan.
Israel has a right to exist. They have provided more science and technology and helped more human beings than all of the history or present state of muslim countries combined. They have earned respect in this world because they worked their asses off. While today Muslims/Arabs are fighting to tell the rest of the world that not all of them are terrorists.
Hope I didnt offend too many people.

Do you really buy that crap??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_to_1956_Palestinian_exodus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Palestinian_exodus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_towns_and_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

please read this and then read what you posted again.

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #317 - June 04, 2010, 05:26 AM

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:26 AM
ofcourse you do.

Oh, give me a break. I'm not a fan of Hamas or any other Palestinian terrorist organization, but that's just simply bullshit.

The fact that it was named Israel before Palestine means shit: a name is a name.

The fact that Palestinians arrived after Jews means shit: they're there and that's that.

The fact that Israel drops letters telling Palestinians to evacuate means shit: people don't wanna evacuate their homes for them to be bombed.

I could go on, but I think my point is clear.

The video is clearly an argument for a one-state solution, and that state is Israel. It's purely propaganda. I have absolutely no problem with a one-state solution, whether called Israel or Palestine, but today it seems unlikely that either Israel or Palestine is going to fully accept and integrate the other. The only viable option, at least in the short term, is a two-state solution. Anything else is propaganda, whether pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian.
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #318 - June 04, 2010, 05:32 AM

Quote from: HighOctane on June 03, 2010, 10:01 PM
Sorry I don't understand Urdu, but I think I get the gist.

Just reviewed military spending table: Israel's annual budget = 2.86~ x Pakistan's

yea Sadly that's because 6 billion of that money belongs to US Tax Payers
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #319 - June 04, 2010, 06:15 AM

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
Why Israel should not be created? That has always been the land of the Jews.

Not always but 2000 years ago. Put in mind America was the land of the Indians about 400 years ago. Texas and California were still part of Mexico.

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
I may not understand Judaism or any other religion but why not let Jews have a land to call their own?

TBH I don' think any religion should be entitled to lands and nations. But given that we have Muslim and Christian nations and given the history of oppression of Jews around the world, I do think the Jewish people should have a land to call their own.
Now why does it have to be in this spot on earth? why didn't they take a part of Germany or Austria? that I don't get.
I mean I can't see any reasons other than religious scripture-based ones. And FYI, the current map borders of Israel are not the same as Biblical borders of the Land of Israel. Still to this day there are significant sections of Jews and Christians who want to expand Israel to these Borders.
Again this just like the issue of Indians in the US. It was theirs once upon time (400 years not 2000). So would you support the creation of an Indian nation in the US and expelling most of the non-Indian population to Europe? does that sound like a fair deal to you? after all American Indians have no land.

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
Dont you muslims have over 50 muslims nations to call your own and i'm pretty sure all of those have been taken by Force and none of them give equal opportunity to it's minorities.

First of all I'm not a Muslim.
Secondly, you need to chill. I'm not an Islamist who wants to re-establish a Caliphate.
Thirdly, this is a tu quoque argument. The Muslims invaded countries centuries ago so it's OK if Jews took countries by force and expelled many of residents.

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
Jews have always been discriminated against whether by the christians or by muslims. Christians have always blamed them for killing their Christ (assuming Christ was a real person) and Muslims hate them because Muhammad tells them to hate the Jews and Christians and every other dirty kaffir.

Agreed.

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
Face it Jews have always been easy targets and they have always come back the land of their ancestors.

This is where we disagree. How can a group of people claim a land that once (2 millennia ago) belonged to their ancestors? not to mention those who converted and have no connection to this land.

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
BTW, Israel is the size of New Jersey.

Irrelevant.

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
There is no occupation, this is blatant lie.

Sure there is. It's your statement that is a blatant lie. There are millions residing the West Bank and Gaza as well as millions of refugees in neighboring countries who have no sovereign nation or citizenship in any country.This is not me speaking. The United Nations Security Council and the International Court of Justice both describe the West Bank and Golan Heights as "occupied territory" under international law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_Territories_%28Israel%29

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
Sure muslims came to Israel (through jihad) but that land has always been the land of the Jews and they were always more than willing to share and live in peace (unlike muslims).

That's not true. It wasn't the Arabs who kicked out the Jews. First the Babylonians conquered the kingdom of Juah ad exiled the Jews into Babylon. Then it was ruled by the Persians, Greeks, and Romans (Pagans then Christians) until the Arabs arrived. If you go back this far, most of the countries of today didn't even exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#Introduction:_Jewish_history_in_Israel

And while I agree that Jews were always oppressed under Christian and Muslim rule I would argue that Jews were better off under Muslim rule. After all with the exception of Khaibar and some other incidents, there weren't any Inquisitions, major pogroms, Holocausts, or systematic government-sanctioned oppression.

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
There is no Palestine, these "Palestinians" are refugees of mostly Jordan so Israel and Lebanon took them in and these "Palestinians" even went back to Jordon to overthrow King Hussian but he had them slaughtered which was called Black September:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan.

Why did the Brits call it "The British Mandate of Palestine" then? why not Israel or Judea?
Your argument is fallacious because Jordan was part of the British Mandate of Palestine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine . The area to the West of the Dead Sea was called Palestine and that to the East was called Transjordan.
Jordan did offer to take those displaced as a result of the '48 war and some of them did take the offer and were granted Jordanian citizens. But many didn't accept and chose to stay in their lands, homes, and businesses.
You should also take a look at the link atheist.pk provided.

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
Israel has a right to exist.

Agreed.

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
They have provided more science and technology and helped more human beings than all of the history or present state of muslim countries combined. They have earned respect in this world because they worked their asses off. While today Muslims/Arabs are fighting to tell the rest of the world that not all of them are terrorists.

All of history? don't know about that.
But generally I agree with you. Among all Middle East countries Israel is the most technologically advanced country in the Middle East. It has the best universities, scientific research centres, and hospitals. It has the best track record of human rights and civil liberties. And it has more political, personal, and press freedoms than any Arab country. Women, LGBT people, and Baha'is are better off there than in any of the other Arab countries. If I personally, as a liberal atheist, had to chose where to live in the Middle East I would chose Israel over any Arab country (disregarding the language thing).

But I'm afraid that still doesn't change the fact that there is a dark side to all of that. This is like arguing for the legitimacy of the Muslim invasion of Spain because there was scientific and literary advancement and Jews were treated better under Muslims than under the subsequent Christian rules who imposed the Spanish Inquisition.

There is an occupation. Historical facts don't lie. There are millions of stateless Palestinians. There being ignored, forgotten about, and stripped of their right to self-determination. The live under of the threat of being forced to leave their homes so that settlers come and take their lands. And when some of them get fed up and desperate and go kill innocent Israeli civilians, they all get collectively punished and humiliated.

I'll end this with a very relevant quote:

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."

Do you know who said that and when? Wanna take a guess?
It was David Ben-Gurion the founding father of Israel and its first prime minister. He said it in 1956. Here take a look yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion#Palestinian_Arabs

Quote from: Saathiya on June 04, 2010, 04:03 AM
Hope I didnt offend too many people.

Not at all. But it does get frustrating when people forget the basic facts and reiterate propaganda. What hurts more is that people ignore the plight of the Palestinians, reduce all Palestinian resistance into Islamic extremism, and don't recognize the Palestinians' right to an independent sovereign nation to call their own.
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #320 - June 04, 2010, 07:35 AM

I found this video its a send up related to this incident i think it is well done.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #321 - June 04, 2010, 08:05 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on June 03, 2010, 08:16 PM
Questions were slightly different from what I read above from your response dear ygalg., let me paste them again here. But when you say collective punishment, You mean PA authority minus PA Hamas and its leadership which is coupled to whole lot of shia Muslims across the globe?? You mean here PA authority means Mahmoud Abbas and his party Fatah??

Any ways the questions were to you., Not for Israeli govt and not for PA authority or nor for Hamas.,

Question is what you would have done if you were an authority in IsraelMy good wishes to you dear ygalg., Welcome to CEMB., Now we know the list So we got to do something with it., I can not act like the way Muhammad following Muslims(NOT ALL) do in this age and time. So questions for me and you..

1). How do we find out whether that list is right or wrong?

2). If that list is correct, do you have any defense of such list will be useful in stopping the attacks on innocent Jewish folks on the roads and restaurants by these brain washed Muslim robots?

3). If that list is correct, what actions should we take to alleviate the problems of people living in Gaza???

referring collective punishment. Israel agendas to pressure hamas on two points. the kidnapped soldier and their yearning for war. the blockade restrained the rockets launchers to some level that allows people in south to live in norm relatively in compare the situation before the blockade been placed. which was unbearable. Israel has the responsibility to it's citizens. Israel does what is good for Israel as any reasonable country. hamas does not act as such.
their people not in the list of priorities. never was. nor for israel. but Israel is not responsible for people of gaza. hamas is. israel trying to educate hamas on that issue at no avail.

1.we can't due it's changeable nature. there is no offical list that israel publicize that allow us to study.
2.I cannot reflect on the list without understand the nature of the components on these products on the list you referring. I'm no scientist. perhaps if THHuxley was around, considering his military history he may gave us a clue which products are ridiculous for ban or which are legitimate ban. i.e if we had a mamber who is an expert on home made weapons or sort. that would aid to our knowledge. sugar for instance used for qassam rockets.
3.after the cast lead the first aid that entered to Gaza was raided by hamas. the products which people received confiscated by hamas. UN workers complained about it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/06/gaza-un-aid-hamas their is no guarantee that products are indeed delivered to the people.
by israel calculation gaza residents situation should have been improved. this why israel dumbfounded. thus according to other sources the people of Gaza are still in dire, means that hamas does not allows for improvement, out of political gain which works for them just fine. the world is not short of simpletons. hence it works. what is the solution? hypothetically. isolation of hamas from the people of Gaza by transferring gaza residents to PA responsibility. to empty Gaza that will leave hamas the only body present that would allow israel free action against it or any remains of terror organization there. after the removal of hamas completely, Gaza can return back to PA control.
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #322 - June 04, 2010, 08:27 AM

The people of Gaza voted for Hamas against the PA. I think your scenario is more wishful thinking than a likely thing.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #323 - June 04, 2010, 08:35 AM

have to say Im a bit shocked at some of the attitudes and regurgitation of isreali propaganda as fact.

I understand peoples frustration with the islamists and hamas. I share it. Every time I hear an Allah U akbar on a demonstration attended by different groups of people and individuals who are there simply to support whatever cause it is my heart sinks.

I was a steward at the Anti Iraq war march and was asked to get people ready as the march was to begin , I was speaking through a megaphone getting people to into the middle of the road to begin. Everyone did it ,except one group, a group of muslims,looking very devout and in traditional dress. Thinking it may be a language thing I walked over to them personally and said very politely that we need them to join the march as it was about to begin. I was told very curtly not to talk to them. Taken aback I went to one of the organisers and explained. To my amazment the head organiser said , yes you have not to talk to the muslims , there leader will be sorting it out, we have to respect that they do not want to mix with non-muslims on the march. I was shocked and angry but said nothing. then the allahuakbars started when marching, why the fuck do they have to alienate themselves when there is an obvious show of solidarity for what they are also against? To me it sounded as ridiculous and misplaced as a bunch scientologists , or christians or hari krishnas using the march just to push their religion. I can imagine that the guys on board the boat who kicked off where of this type , but it in no way justifies Isreal breaking umpteen international laws to stop aid ships. Its demoralises me that a lot of the pre-prepared , perenial black propaganda of the fine-tuned Isreali lie machine is having such success in obscuring the real questions that should be arising from this.
The same guy who has been doing the rounds of of the tv stations is the same guy who sat there poker faces saying it was hamas lies that phosphoros bombs were being used over images of , yep, phosphoros bombs falling out of the sky in Gaza. If this prick told me the world was round I would phone NASA to confirm it.

According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #324 - June 04, 2010, 08:42 AM

i'm really sorry to hear that KL, I'm pissed off that somebody would say that to you.

You sure you weren't wearing the bra round your head? Cause that could explain a lot.
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #325 - June 04, 2010, 08:54 AM

Give us a definitive list of the "umpteen international laws' that were broken.

See the thing is that from what I have been reading (and this is not coming from the IDF) the boarding may well have been legal. The whole law of the sea is apparently a mess and this issue could be argued both ways.

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #326 - June 04, 2010, 09:35 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on June 04, 2010, 08:27 AM
The people of Gaza voted for Hamas against the PA. I think your scenario is more wishful thinking than a likely thing.

not all people who are the resident of gaza identified themselves hamas supporters. the takeover created the situation where hamas rules both.
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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #327 - June 04, 2010, 10:13 AM

Quote from: ygalg on June 04, 2010, 09:35 AM
not all people who are the resident of gaza identified themselves hamas supporters. the take out created the situation where hamas rules both.

I am so glad you joined CEMB dear ygalg ., There are certain things people don't know and must be highlighted ., Problems are there from both sides, they need to be identified, isolated and has to be solved. I will get back to the discussion but meanwhile let me add the links and bit of what well educated intellectuals(Not beareded BUMS from Mosques and Madarass) pundits from land of pure write on this aid flotilla titillatta write..

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=243052
Quote
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended the act of the deadly attack by his marines on the aid flotilla of six ships heading towards the 1.5 million Palestinians crowded into the Gaza strip. He shamelessly said, "Once again Israel faces hypocrisy and a biased rush to judgment." Unmoved by the deaths of innocent civilians at the hands of his atrocious forces, he was defiant in his speech and pleaded that easing the blockade of Gaza would lead to Iranian missiles falling in the hands of rogue Hamas leaders who rule the Palestinian strip. According to the statement of the Israeli Defence Forces, the relief flotilla organisers had a radical Islamic anti-western orientation, and that Israeli naval forces were attacked with metal clubs and knives, as well as live fire. We haven't heard of a single Israeli death, however.

The American government continues with its policy on the Palestinian-Israeli issue, and the coyness of the president of the United States and the audacity on the part of the mainstream US media comparable only to that of Netanyahu confirm that the Israeli government will smoothly get away with another crime against humanity. One is sure that a UN Security Council resolution to condemn the act, if any at all, will be vetoed by the US as usual. This is what you call persistence. On other fronts, the weapons of mass destruction are yet to be found in Iraq while we are in search of some good Taliban in Afghanistan who we could talk to. Not surprising that some of the kind-hearted liberal Americans one gets to meet keep grappling with the question that why they are disliked by so many in the Muslim world.

I am one of those Pakistanis who were able to visit some towns like Auschwitz in Europe where the ghastly acts of huddling up and killing of Jews took place. Many of us know what European Jews went through for generations after generations, all of which in a way culminated in the Holocaust. It is now up to the conscience of humanist Jews to see that Palestinians are going through the same ordeal in present day and age at the hands of those who were once victims themselves. If you are an Israeli you don't have to be a humanist to understand the need for building peace. It is a purely rational choice for the state and for a secure, peaceful and prosperous society. But influential Israelis don't get it. Like many of us Pakistanis don't get it. The formidable rightwing lobby of politicians, media personnel, pseudo-intellectuals and academics still don't understand that foundations of a secure, peaceful and prosperous society can seldom be laid on bigotry, intolerance, hate and ignorance.

What the members of the Ahmaddiya community in Lahore went through a few days ago while doing nothing but offering prayers is just another proof of the wrongs we have done in the past and a glaring sign of more dreadful times to come if we don't act differently now. After our sovereign parliament excommunicated Ahmedis in 1974 from the ambit of Islam, the community has faced murder, violence and institutionalised discrimination. That fateful decision of parliament opened new doors of prejudice. One example is Shias who supported castigating Ahmedis but themselves faced extreme violence and a campaign to be declared non-Muslim. The issues of Muqallid and Ghair-Muqallid within Sunnis, blasphemous Christian farmers and janitors, idol-worshipping Hindus, there is so much more. Pakistanis don't get it, like Israelis.

The writer is a poet and advises national and international institutions on governance and public policy issues. Email: harris .khalique@gmail.com

That is what he writes.. Let me analyze bit of that in near future posts here in thi sthread..

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #328 - June 04, 2010, 10:17 AM

Quote
Concentration camp Gaza Quantum note

Friday, June 04, 2010
Dr Muzaffar Iqbal

Having demonstrated to the world yet one more time its utter disregard for any international law and the superiority of its high-tech armed forces, Israel is enjoying the latest round of naked display of Muslim helplessness: mass demonstrations in major cities, where raging but impotent crowds shout slogans, break their own property, fight with their own law enforcement agencies, are beaten up, and ultimately go home, exhausted, tired, and filled with a deep sense of despair.

The United States of America is doing what it has always done (never mind Obama's new face!): a controlled reaction aimed at minimising damage to Israel's public image (not that it matters all that much), followed by swift diplomatic blockage of any concrete step against Israel at any international forum (in this case demands at the UN Security Council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine civilians dead), followed by public reassurance to its client-state in the Middle East: bravo! We are behind you.

This came from Vice-President Joe Biden in an interview to a US television channel: "Israel has an absolute right to deal with its security interest…So what's the big deal here? What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza?"

So, all that is left behind the dead bodies onboard Gaza Flotilla is the diplomatic wrangling about an investigation that has absolutely no relevance to the lives of 1.5 million human beings who live in the largest concentration camp on earth called the Qita Gazza in Arabic and Gaza Strip in English. The 41 by 6-12 kilometre strip, with a total area of 360 square kilometres is barricaded from all sides (by Israel and Egypt) and is home to one of the worst human habitats on earth with its marked problems of over-crowding, desertification, salinisation of fresh water, sewage treatment, waterborne diseases, soil degradation, and depletion and contamination of underground water resources.

The Gaza Strip is more than a strip of land: it is a concentration camp that displays to the world the absolute control and power of a rogue state, a blot on humanity's conscience (if there is any left), a reminder of the impotence of all the collective military and diplomatic power of world's 1.5 billion Muslims, and -- more concretely -- it is a reminder of that great display of crude power and will to do what it wishes to do which first appeared on the world map in 1949, following the 1948 Arab-Israel War, when the Gaza Strip first acquired its current boundaries under the 1949 Armistice Agreements.

Behind that historic junction are the treacheries of Britain, France, and the United States of America: the notorious (notorious from the Muslim perceptive anyways) League of Nation mandate under which Britain officially committed itself to implement the Balfour Declaration of 1917, whereby it assumed an "obligation" to establish in Palestine a national home for the Jewish people, the United Nations Partition Plan, which made Gaza part of a new Arab state, the May 1948 invasion of Gaza by the Egyptian army, which started the 1948 Arab-Israel War, the Israel-Egypt Armistice Agreement of February 24, 1949, which established the separation line between Egyptian and Israeli forces, and established what became the present boundary between the Gaza Strip and Israel. Both sides declared that the boundary was not to be an international border. The southern border with Egypt continued to be the international border which had been drawn in 1906 between the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire.

But all of this is merely history -- written in ink and forgotten in the wake of what happened subsequently in the form of the barricades which basically locked-in some 1.5 million human beings in a concentration camp that no one now knows how to handle.

For all practical purposes, Israel controls the Gaza Strip even as the Palestinian Authority nominally ruled the Gaza Strip and West Bank under the leadership of Arafat for a time and then Hamas won an election and assumed the nominal control of the strip.

Israel does to the people what it desires. For instance, on December 27, 2008, Israel's F-16 strike fighters launched a series of air strikes against police stations, schools, hospitals, UN warehouses, a mosque, various Hamas' government buildings, a science building in the Islamic University, and a UN-operated elementary school in a Palestinian refugee camp, killing at least 434 Palestinians, wounding at least 2,800. Then it launched a ground invasion of the Gaza Strip on January 3, 2009 in which 13 Israelis (note the numbers here) and over 1,400 Palestinians were killed in 22 days.

After 22 days, Israel decided to stop killing. By then, it had destroyed 5,000 homes, 16 government buildings, 20 mosques and damaged 25,000 homes. It intensified the 2-year-old blockade of the Gaza Strip even as the Red Cross released reports on how this blockade had made life impossible as there were not even X-ray films left in the hospitals.

Now, the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) strictly control all movement in and out of the Gaza Strip, where 1.5 million human beings continue to live in the largest concentration camp on earth while the diplomatic wrangling and the raging crowds across the globe make a show of their impotence.

The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: quantumnotes@gmail.com

That is what a BUM., educated in Canada , A Ph. D., Chemistry .. could not survive in sciences to contribute to educate Pakistan Muslim(other wise) Kids , goes in to Islamic Religious hole becomes a BUM.. writes often on religion and politics. Let me How many of such articles they write on these nine ISLAMIC TURKISH CALIPHAS.. the Modern Hassan/Hussains who died fighting trained IDF., the are martyrs of Islam ..

Fuckking STUPIDS..

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Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
Reply #329 - June 04, 2010, 11:00 AM

Quote
St.-Sgt. S: We had no choice
By YAAKOV KATZ 04/06/2010

Exclusive:
Quote
"They had murder in their eyes"

; 3 officers lay wounded.

When St.-Sgt. S. fast-roped down from an air force Black Hawk helicopter onto the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship on Monday morning, he did not expect to be landing in what he called
Quote
“a battlefield”

and facing off against a group of
Quote
“murderous mercenaries.”

The 15th and last naval commando from Flotilla 13 (the Shayetet) to rappel down onto the ship from the helicopter, S. said on Thursday that he was immediately attacked by what the IDF has called
Quote
“the mob of mercenaries”

aboard the vessel, just like the soldiers who had boarded just before him.

Looking to his side, he saw three of his commanders lying wounded – one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and another with a gunshot wound to the knee. A third was lying unconscious; his skull was fractured by a devastating blow with a metal bar.

As the next in the chain of command, S., who has been in the Shayetet for three and a half years, immediately took charge.

He pushed the wounded soldiers up against the wall of the upper deck and created a perimeter of soldiers around them to begin treating their wounds, he said. He then arranged his men to form a second perimeter, and pulled out his 9 mm. Glock pistol to stave off the charging attackers and to protect his wounded comrades.

The attackers had already seized two pistols from the commandos, and fired repeatedly at them. Facing more than a dozen of the mercenaries, and convinced their lives were in danger, he and his colleagues opened fire, he said. S. singlehandedly killed six men. His colleagues killed another three.

On Thursday, S. sat down with The Jerusalem Post at the Shayetet’s base in northern Israel for an exclusive interview, during which he described the dramatic events aboard the Mavi Marmara on Monday; he is being considered for a medal of valor.

Quote
“When I hit the deck, I was immediately attacked by people with bats, metal pipes and axes,”

S. told the Post.
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“These were without a doubt terrorists. I could see the murderous rage in their eyes and that they were coming to kill us.”

S. does not look like a hero. Well-built, like all commandos in the Shayetet, he is also soft-spoken and stingy with words, but his commander Lt.-Col. T. fills in the blanks.

Quote
“S. did a remarkable job,”

T. said.
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“He stabilized the situation and succeeded in hitting six of the terrorists.”

Based on preliminary results of its investigation into the navy’s takeover of the Mavi Marmara, which ended with nine dead passengers and more than 30 wounded, the IDF said on Thursday that the commandos were attacked by a well-trained group of mercenaries, most of whom were found without IDs but with thousands of dollars in their pockets.

The group was well trained and was split into a number of squads of about 20 mercenaries each distributed throughout the upper deck, the IDF said. All of the mercenaries wore gas masks and ceramic bulletproof vests and were armed with either bats, slingshots, metal bars, knives or stun grenades.

The IDF’s understanding is that the mercenaries mainly chose dual-purpose items of this sort rather than guns, since opening fire would have made it blatantly clear that they were terrorists and not so-called peace activists.

Nevertheless, the IDF suspects that the group did have some guns of its own. Israeli forensic experts who examined the ship found casings belonging to a weapon that was not used by the commandos, and the Turkish captain of the ship later told the IDF that the
Quote
“mercenaries”

threw their weapons overboard after the commandos took control of the vessel.

T. said he realized the group they were facing was well-trained and likely ex-military after the commandos threw a number of stun grenades and fired warning shots before rappelling down onto the deck.
Quote
“They didn’t even flinch,”

he said.
Quote
“Regular people would move.”

Each squad of the
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“mercenaries”

was equipped with a Motorola communication device, the IDF said, so they could pass information to one another. Assessments in the defense establishment are that members of the group were affiliated with international global jihad elements and had undergone training in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan.

S. on Thursday downplayed his involvement in the operation.
Quote
“I did what I was trained to do and now I move on,”

he said.

In contrast to earlier reports, the commandos said that they began using their weapons within a minute and a half after boarding the ship, due to the extreme violence they faced. One of the reasons S. pulled out his gun right after landing on the ship was because one of the mercenaries was pointing a pistol, snatched from one of the commandos, at another commando’s head.

http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=177445
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