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 Topic: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships

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  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #360 - June 04, 2010, 08:59 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 04, 2010, 08:55 PM
    Life expectancy is not the sole indicator of life expectancy. GDP per capita is a better indicator.

    Do you mean a better indicator of wealth?
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  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #361 - June 04, 2010, 09:04 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 04, 2010, 08:59 PM
    Do you mean a better indicator of wealth?

    I mean quality of life.

    Check out these rankings:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #362 - June 04, 2010, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on June 04, 2010, 08:58 PM
    True. Strictly speaking there is nothing wrong with that.

    It is incredibly stupid and irresponsible though.

    9 people got killed, rememberer?

    Yeh well, it's a struggle, people are going to die. You can't end a brutal occupation without confrontation.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #363 - June 04, 2010, 09:09 PM
    Yeah but violent confrontations haven't helped. So I think it's time for something new.

    I spent my post to reach 7000 for Peace and Love. For non-violent confrontations. For sanctions against Israel. And a giant FU to Hamas.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #364 - June 04, 2010, 09:11 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 04, 2010, 09:06 PM
    Yeh well, it's a struggle, people are going to die. You can't end a brutal occupation without confrontation.

    +1 to what BD said.

    On top of that have Palestinians benefited from armed confrontation so far? Trying to out-gun Israelis?

    The only way to defeat a superior enemy is Gandhi style.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #365 - June 04, 2010, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 04, 2010, 09:04 PM
    I mean quality of life.

    Check out these rankings:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index

    Methodology is biased towards favouring socialist countries
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  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #366 - June 04, 2010, 09:16 PM
    Actually, the whole idea that Gandhi's pacifism brought about Indian independence is wrong. The British Empire was weak without Gandhi, and nationalism was on the rise in many British colonies. The Brits were also unsatisfied with the state of welfare in their own country, so they turned to politicians that advocated spending more on welfare and less on the colonies. If it weren't so costly to maintain the Empire, Gandhi and all his supporters would've absolutely failed.

    I'm not talking about offensive confrontations with Israel, though. I'm saying people shouldn't back out just because they know they might get killed if they try to break the blockade. What did you want them to do, turn their ships and returned home? Or give the aid to Israel in hopes that it'd deliver it to Gaza? How would that have undermined the blockade?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #367 - June 04, 2010, 09:17 PM
    What about Martin Luther King?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #368 - June 04, 2010, 09:19 PM
    MLK's image is overplayed because the people with power want you to believe pacifism does much.

    What about Malcolm X and the Black Panthers?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #369 - June 04, 2010, 09:20 PM
    *raises fist*

    Malcolm X has always been a brother.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #370 - June 04, 2010, 09:21 PM
    Exactly. And he was opposed to pacifism and believed that people should be liberated "by any means necessary."
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #371 - June 04, 2010, 09:27 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 04, 2010, 09:16 PM
    I'm not talking about offensive confrontations with Israel, though. I'm saying people shouldn't back out just because they know they might get killed if they try to break the blockade. What did you want them to do, turn their ships and returned home? Or give the aid to Israel in hopes that it'd deliver it to Gaza? How would that have undermined the blockade?

    This whole stunt had almost nothing to do with delivering aid to Gaza.

    It was supposed to show (on a symbolic level) that Israel does not completely control the situation thus symbolically breaking the blockade. Have you perchance noticed the whole pathetic show preceding the action?

    Do you realize that they haven't undermined the blockade at all? Nothing positive came out of this action at all apart from the fact that more hate was generated on all sides.

    9 people died for that. For fuck all. Tell me if it was your son who got killed would you still simply say "You can't end a brutal occupation without confrontation"?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #372 - June 04, 2010, 09:28 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 04, 2010, 09:21 PM
    Exactly. And he was opposed to pacifism and believed that people should be liberated "by any means necessary."

    Right. And how did it all end? Were his methods implemented IRL and were they proven to be effective?

    I am talking common sense here, not armchair guerilla warfare form thousand miles away.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #373 - June 04, 2010, 09:30 PM
    @Abood

    I know but I wonder if he had said the same during the end?

    Besides, to be honest, I don't believe in violent confrontation is the solution for Palestine. Simply because it hasn't worked and will not work.

    Tell me how they will get a state that way? They can't invade the country, the can at most harm a few civilians. Which does not help them internationally. I can't see how they can win this way.

    And who won the battle in the end? MLK or Black Panthers? I don't buy that the authority wants to fool you into pacifism. I believe they want you to side with them. And MLK sure as hell didn't, neither did the millions of other people who joined in that struggle.

    I have a hard time seeing that a violent uprising would have pushed the Civil Rights movement forward. It would have made a great irony though.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #374 - June 04, 2010, 09:33 PM
    It has actually undermined the blockade by bringing it to everyone's attention worldwide. Now the job is to keep doing it, again and again, and people will be and are already doing it again.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/03/gaza.raid/index.html

    More flotillas need to be sent. And it really doesn't matter whether it's about delivering aid to Gaza or just showing that Israel will lose control. In the long run, it'll help Palestinians.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #375 - June 04, 2010, 09:35 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on June 04, 2010, 09:28 PM
    Right. And how did it all end? Were his methods implemented IRL and were they proven to be effective?

    I am talking common sense here, not armchair guerilla warfare form thousand miles away.

    When you have a violent element, the enemy realizes that cooperating with the pacifist resistance is better than letting the situation spiral and have the violent people take control. And Malcolm X knew that and acted accordingly. He was actually helping out MLK.

    Quote
    "I want Dr. King to know that I didn't come to Selma to make his job difficult. I really did come thinking I could make it easier. If the white people realize what the alternative is, perhaps they will be more willing to hear Dr. King."

    Dr. King on Malcolm X:
    "You know, right before he was killed he came down to Selma and said some pretty passionate things against me, and that surprised me because after all it was my territory there. But afterwards he took my wife aside, and said he thought he could help me more by attacking me than praising me. He thought it would make it easier for me in the long run."


    http://www.malcolm-x.org/quotes.htm
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #376 - June 04, 2010, 09:35 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 09:30 PM
    Besides, to be honest, I don't believe in violent confrontation is the solution for Palestine. Simply because it hasn't worked and will not work.

    Violent confrontation is exactly what far right extremists in Israel want. Because it would give them a fantastic excuse to ethnically cleanse Gaza strip once and for all.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #377 - June 04, 2010, 09:36 PM
    Let me make things clear: I'm not talking about violent offensive attacks; I'm talking about using violence as self-defense.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #378 - June 04, 2010, 09:39 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 09:30 PM
    And who won the battle in the end? MLK or Black Panthers? I don't buy that the authority wants to fool you into pacifism. I believe they want you to side with them. And MLK sure as hell didn't, neither did the millions of other people who joined in that struggle.

    Pacifism doesn't undermine the authority, so essentially it's on its side. The only way pacifism can undermine authority is if the violent element exists to make the authority choose the pacifist alternative or realize that it could lose altogether. Essentially, pacifism needs to come as a compromise, because the authorities would never agree to the pacifists' demands without a threat. So both pacifist and violent elements are essential.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #379 - June 04, 2010, 09:39 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 04, 2010, 09:33 PM
    It has actually undermined the blockade by bringing it to everyone's attention worldwide.

    Bull! Hot air!
    Everybody was aware that the blockade is inhumane even before the action.

    And you know what? As soon as next week everybody on this planet, apart from very few who are directly involved in it, will forget that there is a blockade in the first place.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #380 - June 04, 2010, 09:40 PM
    Btw, if anyone can answer this, why is it that Israel has to develop new settlements in areas designated for Palestinians? No, really, what is the reason? Distance to Israel cities? Urban sprawl? Economics?

    As to this whole issue of "it was their land" - to me all ownership of land is theft ... I think.

    Interesting articles btw, thanks, it's a nice collation on this thread.  Afro
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #381 - June 04, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 04, 2010, 09:39 PM
    ... or realize that it could lose altogether.

    Do you realize that Israel cannot lose this? Not militarily.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #382 - June 04, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on June 04, 2010, 09:39 PM
    Bull! Hot air!
    Everybody was aware that the blockade is inhumane even before the action.

    And you know what? As soon as next week everybody on this planet, apart from very few who are directly involved in it, will forget that there is a blockade in the first place.

    It would suck if that happened, but a momentum needs to be developed. Your attitude is very defeatist.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #383 - June 04, 2010, 09:43 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on June 04, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Do you realize that Israel cannot lose this? Not militarily.

    Israel doesn't need to lose this militarily. It needs to lose its public image and realize it can't survive doing what it does because people will not let it do as it wants anymore.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #384 - June 04, 2010, 09:44 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 04, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Your attitude is very defeatist.

    Nope. It's completely realistic. Paradoxically the real defeatist are those assholes behind actions like the one we just witnessed. And Hamas and such obviously.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #385 - June 04, 2010, 09:44 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 04, 2010, 09:16 PM
    I'm not talking about offensive confrontations with Israel, though. I'm saying people shouldn't back out just because they know they might get killed if they try to break the blockade. What did you want them to do, turn their ships and returned home? Or give the aid to Israel in hopes that it'd deliver it to Gaza? How would that have undermined the blockade?



    They could have taken up the Egyptian offer to offload the cargo in El Arish on the Sinai coast and let them deliver the goods to the Palestinians.
    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #386 - June 04, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 04, 2010, 09:43 PM
    Israel doesn't need to lose this militarily. It needs to lose its public image and realize it can't survive doing what it does because people will not let it do as it wants anymore.

    Like who?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #387 - June 04, 2010, 09:46 PM
    The whole point is to undermine the blockade. The whole point is to make Palestinians not reliant on foreign aid in the long run.
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #388 - June 04, 2010, 09:47 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on June 04, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Like who?

    How do you expect people will support the BSD movement if Israel doesn't lose its public image, if the blockade doesn't become a priority cause in people's minds?
  • Re: Isrealis attack Aid Convoy ships
     Reply #389 - June 04, 2010, 09:48 PM
    Quote from: Abood on June 04, 2010, 09:46 PM
    The whole point is to undermine the blockade. The whole point is to make Palestinians not reliant on foreign aid in the long run.

    For that a compromise with Israel is going to be needed in order to rebuild the economy.

    And you cannot have a compromise if your aim is to humiliate the opponent. Like what Israel  is doing.
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