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 Topic: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please

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  • could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     OP - June 13, 2010, 05:29 PM
    I've never read the Quran, Although i might do one day.
    Could some one explain about the books for those that don't know

    It's when some one quotes something from 54:4 or wherever, Im not sure where i should find it. i don't know how the Quran is spilt into subsections what they mean and the other associated stuff like hadiths etc. how that fits all in.

    If you could point me in the right direction i'd be grateful. ta.







    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #1 - June 13, 2010, 05:45 PM
    e.g. http://www.themuslimweb.com/quran/browse.cgi?sura=54&aya=4&ph=1&ar=1
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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #2 - June 13, 2010, 05:52 PM
    54 is the Chapter (Surah) number, and 4 is the Verse (ayat/ayah) number. Each chapter has a specific name as well. Surah 54 is al-Qamar or The Moon.

    Explore this website: http://quran.al-islam.org/

    Its ideal to view each chapter and verse with the different accepted English translations alongside the original Arabic text, as well as a rather Shia-centric commentary on specific verses since al-islam.org is a Shia website that I have been a visitor of since 2000.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #3 - June 13, 2010, 06:29 PM
    thanks guys, whats considered the best english translation
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #4 - June 13, 2010, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: Mr X on June 13, 2010, 06:29 PM
    thanks guys, whats considered the best english translation



    Pckthall or Yusuf Ali imho. Both have their faults - but are generally OK.
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #5 - June 13, 2010, 06:38 PM
    ta!
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #6 - June 13, 2010, 06:44 PM
    Shakir's the easiest and simplest English to understand quickly, but it would be important to check out the other translations as well to see any differences in interpretation.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #7 - June 13, 2010, 06:53 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 13, 2010, 06:34 PM
    Pckthall or Yusuf Ali imho. Both have their faults - but are generally OK.

    Weird, why do you think Debunker on the ocntrary thinks Shakirs the best translation?
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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #8 - June 13, 2010, 06:58 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 13, 2010, 06:53 PM
    Weird, why do you think Debunker on the ocntrary thinks Shakirs the best translation?


    Maybe he's more familiar with Shakir than I am. I have always used Pickthal and Yusuf Ali and found them OK.

    They all are much of a muchness tbh.
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #9 - June 13, 2010, 07:15 PM
    It is interesting that those who have spent much of their lives studying Islam, can still use their skills post apostasy.  In fact, their skills are more useful post apostasy. dance  Let's hope more scholars/semi-scholars  leave Islam.
    I don't know if it enough to earn a living with, though. Cry
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #10 - June 13, 2010, 07:21 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 13, 2010, 06:58 PM
    They all are much of a muchness tbh.

    Not where 4:34 is concerned, thats why I think DB is right with Shakir..

    YAli - beat (lightly); shakir =beat & Pickthall = scourge

    btw did Ali add the word 'lightly' in brackets?  Why?
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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #11 - June 13, 2010, 07:34 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 13, 2010, 07:21 PM
    Not where 4:34 is concerned, thats why I think DB is right with Shakir..

    YAli - beat (lightly); shakir =beat & Pickthall = scourge

    btw did Ali add the word 'lightly' in brackets?  Why?


    Because of hadith/tafseer.

    The others would no doubt also agree that it should be lightly but obviously didn't feel the need to add an interpolation.

    This verse obviously rankled Yusuf Ali Wink
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #12 - June 13, 2010, 08:04 PM
    I dont rate Y.Ali at all.  From this verse alone, how can I trust the rest of his translation?  He was educated in the West and I think this has a lot to do with his translations.

    He has no right to change a translation into his own interpretation, particularly if its meant to be Allahs word. Who does he think he is?
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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #13 - June 13, 2010, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 13, 2010, 07:34 PM
    Because of hadith/tafseer.

    The others would no doubt also agree that it should be lightly but obviously didn't feel the need to add an interpolation.

    This verse obviously rankled Yusuf Ali Wink


    Quite a few verses seemed to have rankled old Yusuf judging by his copious footnotes. And there were many that I had to read when I was reading his translation. I also read Asad's translation which likewise has copious footnotes and Maulana Muhammad Ali who again, has voluminous notes. For succinct verses easy to understand these guys sure felt the need to explain them at length. Poor fellows.
    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #14 - June 13, 2010, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 13, 2010, 08:04 PM
    I dont rate Y.Ali at all.  From this verse alone, how can I trust the rest of his translation?  He was educated in the West and I think this has a lot to do with his translations.

    He has no right to change a translation into his own interpretation, particularly if its meant to be Allahs word. Who does he think he is?


    Apart from this, his translation is OK imho - and it is not God's 'literal' word once translated - but an interpretation - and so I guess he felt justified adding that - and it was put in brackets.
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #15 - June 13, 2010, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: abdalwali on June 13, 2010, 08:09 PM
    Quite a few verses seemed to have rankled old Yusuf judging by his copious footnotes. And there were many that I had to read when I was reading his translation. I also read Asad's translation which likewise has copious footnotes and Maulana Muhammad Ali who again, has voluminous notes. For succinct verses easy to understand these guys sure felt the need to explain them at length. Poor fellows.


    Yes, YA notes are v revealing - I remember one about slavery - saying it was not applicable in this day and age.
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #16 - June 13, 2010, 08:24 PM
    Quote
    - and so I guess he felt justified adding that - and it was put in brackets.

    On what basis?  Being different from the hadith is not good enough, the Quran is the quran, the hadith are the hadith and they should be translated independently of one another.
    Quote from: Hassan on June 13, 2010, 08:09 PM
    Apart from this, his translation is OK imho - and it is not God's 'literal' word once translated - but an interpretation

    Yes, but a translation is not a tafsir, which is what he appears to be doing here.  And Ive heard he does the same thing with similarly other dodgy verses!
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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #17 - June 13, 2010, 08:38 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 13, 2010, 08:24 PM
    On what basis?  Being different from the hadith is not good enough, the Quran is the quran, the hadith are the hadith and they should be translated independently of one another.Yes, but a translation is not a tafsir, which is what he appears to be doing here.  And Ive heard he does the same thing with similarly other dodgy verses!


    I've not noticed him do it anywhere else - perhaps I missed it. But I do often take a look at the USC MSA site when translating:

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/

    And I compare the 3 translations (YA/Picthall/Shakir) I use them as reference as I do the translation myself - sometimes picking words or expressions from one, two or all three.

    As I do that I have to say that in my experience YA and Pickthal are the best - and I say that as someone looking at the Arabic and not simply relying on them.

    But Like I also say - they ALL have their faults and there is no substitute for understanding the Qur'an in its own language.
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #18 - June 13, 2010, 08:43 PM
    Fair enough, but I still think its dishonest of Yusuf Ali in this case. 

    I'll stick to Pickthal for simplicity as I dont know Arabic & I rely on translations and wouldnt know where else he might have done it.
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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #19 - June 13, 2010, 08:46 PM
    it's vs. its, then vs. than... finmad
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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #20 - June 13, 2010, 08:47 PM
    Pickthall is fine, though his language is not as eloquent as Yusuf Ali at times. Other times the reverse is true.
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #21 - June 13, 2010, 08:49 PM
    For Mr X, here it is in simple terms. Basically, quran is divided in chapters (surahs), and every chapter consists of sentences, each sentence is called a verse (ayat). So if a chapter has 50 sentences, that means it has 50 verses.

    If someone says: check verse 34:3, they mean look at chapter # 34, verse # 3.

    Quran is supposed to be the literal word of god, and then the 2nd thing is the hadiths, which are simply sayings of prophet that are recorded down. While quran is considered by muslims to be literally true and unquestionable, they can claim that some hadiths are mistaken or not true, etc, since they were written down by humans. (Quran was written down by humans too, but oh well) Wink
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #22 - June 13, 2010, 08:50 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on June 13, 2010, 08:46 PM
    it's vs. its, then vs. than... finmad


    lol... corrected!
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #23 - June 13, 2010, 08:56 PM
    I personally don't like Yusuf Ali. Not because of some perceived agenda or how he interpret things, but I sometimes find his translations inaccurate--maybe there is a hidden agenda, though. I tend to go with Shakir, sometimes Pickthal. I usually use this website and choose whichever translation I think fits best. It's all about ijtihad. dance
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #24 - June 13, 2010, 08:59 PM
    There are discrepancies between Yusuf Ali's interpretation of the Qur'an and the Arabic text.

    I find his attempt to hide the creation contradiction quite interesting. It's also interesting that these translators think they can express things more clearly than an omniscient being.

    [2:29]
    It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

    [79:30]
    And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

    footnote for above verse:

    Moreover: or, more literally, after that

    Why would God use such an expression if he meant something quite different?

    Of course, the word 'thumma' used in 2:29 means 'then,' not 'moreover.'  But Yusuf Ali and Muhammad Asad know that their god is inept, and so they corrected his Qur'an for him.
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #25 - June 13, 2010, 09:04 PM
    Bottom line is one really can't rely on any translation fully - and as Abd al-Noor says in his book - they are all believers and so it's impossible for them to be objective and dispassionate - their instincts will always be to try and bend or twist something to make it look better.
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #26 - June 13, 2010, 09:09 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 13, 2010, 08:59 PM
    Of course, the word 'thumma' used in 2:29 means 'then,' not 'moreover.'  But Yusuf Ali and Muhammad Asad know that their god is inept, and so they corrected his Qur'an for him.

    When I was doing investigations into this on my blog, I think Ali did a similar thing once with the scientific mishaps in the quran too, either the earth being round or with the origin of sperm verses..

    Quote from: Hassan on June 13, 2010, 09:04 PM
    Bottom line is one really can't rely on any translation fully - and as Abd al-Noor says in his book - they are all believers and so it's impossible for them to be objective and dispassionate - their instincts will always be to try and bend or twist something to make it look better.

    Yes, but I dont think Pickthal can be accused of that? In any case the point was choosing the most reliable & honest translator, and Yusuf Ali so far has been caught with his fly open a few times now.

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  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #27 - June 13, 2010, 09:11 PM
    Maybe one day I'll do a translation - an ex-muslim version of the Qur'an - with annotations - lol that should be fun  Afro
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #28 - June 13, 2010, 09:15 PM
    That sounds like a good idea. Afro
  • Re: could someone explain all the booky wooky stuff please
     Reply #29 - June 13, 2010, 09:20 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 13, 2010, 09:11 PM
    Maybe one day I'll do a translation - an ex-muslim version of the Qur'an - with annotations - lol that should be fun  Afro


    That really would be important. I mean seriously, it would.

    But it sounds like the kind of undertaking that would take years, and require sponsorship. And given the nature of the task, that might be be slow in coming forth. But still, I reckon that would be a massively important achievement if someone were to ever do it.



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