Do you support the state of Israel?

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #60 - June 16, 2010, 09:33 PM

Quote from: ras111 on June 16, 2010, 09:23 PM
Instead of that bollocks people ought to remember the in the 90s when Rabin was in charge, Israelis and Palestinians were getting along quite well. They visited each others weddings and not to blow each other up, they worked together, hung out together. A Palestinian friend of mine told me this. Then it all went bust.

I think it went bust because:

(1) The PA was corrupt and Arafat a poor domestic leader, so from the mid 90s on, the Palestinian people were becoming increasingly frustrated with the PA's inability to govern and improve the lives of the average working-class Palestinian, so Hamas started "winning hearts and minds" as a result, plus they took a hard "no concessions" line which paid off when it became apparent Arafat couldn't get a good deal from the Israelis.

I wish pure.virtual would pop in more often so he could tell me if I'm on the right track with this or completely off the mark.

(2) Israel simply wasn't willing to give up enough for a settlement the Palestinians considered just. Israel held all the bargaining chips and just weren't willing to give enough to make it work--

http://www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #61 - June 16, 2010, 09:36 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on June 16, 2010, 09:31 PM
Lolz, friggin doppelganger, i thought you were yeezevee for a minute!

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #62 - June 16, 2010, 09:36 PM

Quote from: QueenIsabel on June 16, 2010, 09:33 PM
True. In fact a person does not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist. There are Christian Zionists and I have talked to atheists who are Zionists.

Right, and there are also Christian Palestinians, who Christians in the US often conveniently pretend don't exist.

I hear a lot of Christians in the US protesting the treatment of Christians in Darfur, but are pretty damn tight-lipped when the IDF puts the Church of the Nativity under siege or seizes land from Palestinian Christians.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #63 - June 16, 2010, 09:38 PM

There are also non-muslim apologists and supporters of Islam.

Plus Christian Zionists are just Christian End-Time fanatics who wanna see sum shit go boom boom.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #64 - June 16, 2010, 09:39 PM

Quote
Q-Man
Most people here you are discussing the topic with know the history much better than you.

Yes Professor Q-Man
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #65 - June 16, 2010, 09:40 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on June 16, 2010, 09:32 PM
I usually skip yeezevee posts cause they are formatted like like geocities homepages in the 90s, including marquees and flashy under construction links.

He's a personal hero of mine.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #66 - June 16, 2010, 09:41 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on June 16, 2010, 09:32 PM
I usually skip yeezevee posts cause they are formatted like like geocities homepages in the 90s, including marquees and flashy under construction links.
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #67 - June 16, 2010, 09:42 PM

Quote from: Iblis on June 16, 2010, 09:38 PM
There are also non-muslim apologists and supporters of Islam.

Plus Christian Zionists are just Christian End-Time fanatics who wanna see sum shit go boom boom.

Yeah that's one of the problems. People viewing this conflict from a religious perspective and acting it... on both sides of the conflict. I also think that many activists are nothing more than well meaning idiots who are being used by the leaders of the factions there. I'd love to go and help out by working there and contributing a bit to the Palestinian's economy and stability in any way I can.

The problem is that they are heavily scrutinised and controlled by the Israelis as well.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #68 - June 16, 2010, 09:46 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on June 16, 2010, 09:36 PM
Right, and there are also Christian Palestinians, who Christians in the US often conveniently pretend don't exist.

I hear a lot of Christians in the US protesting the treatment of Christians in Darfur, but are pretty damn tight-lipped when the IDF puts the Church of the Nativity under siege or seizes land from Palestinian Christians.

Yeah my Great-Grandfather was a Palestinian Christian. He left that region before the fall of the Ottomen empire.
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #69 - June 16, 2010, 09:50 PM

Quote from: ras111 on June 16, 2010, 09:27 PM
or perhaps get the settlers to accept Palestinian citizenship and become Palestinians citizens,

Better chance of me shitting a gold brick in the next 5 minutes. The settlers are the most religiously zealous, hateful and obstinate of the Israelis. These guys often engage in protests against the IDF/Israeli government that are every bit as violent as the rock-throwing Palestinian kids. No damn way they'd accept Palestinian citizenship.

Quote from: QueenIsabel on June 16, 2010, 09:39 PM
Yes Professor Q-Man

Sorry, but it is obvious that the people you are debating this topic with (and I wasn't even including myself when I said that) have more historical knowledge on the topic than you. You are not going to tell Iraqi Atheist or Iblis something they don't know about the history there, but if you keep your mind open, you might be able to learn something from them. Maybe you know more about some other topic than they do and can teach them about that, but let's not pretend your knowledge on this topic is on the same level as theirs.

I see you have no response for the rest of my post.

Quote from: QueenIsabel on June 16, 2010, 09:46 PM
Yeah my Great-Grandfather was a Palestinian Christian. He left that region before the fall of the Ottomen empire.

Got out at a good time I guess. Went to the US after that?

So how do you feel about the Palestinian Christians who had their lands seized by Israel, were made into refugees and/or have been living under an oppressive foreign occupation for many decades?

How do you feel about Israel preventing Arafat and his Christian wife from going to the Church of the Nativity for Midnight Mass at Christmas?

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #70 - June 16, 2010, 09:53 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on June 16, 2010, 09:50 PM
Better chance of me shitting a gold brick in the next 5 minutes. The settlers are the most religiously zealous, hateful and obstinate of the Israelis. These guys often engage in protests against the IDF/Israeli government that are every bit as violent as the rock-throwing Palestinian kids. No damn way they'd accept Palestinian citizenship.

They're not all religious actually... Quite a number are secular but yeah agree with your general picture of them.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #71 - June 16, 2010, 09:56 PM

Yes I'm aware some are secular-- for them just replace "religiously zealous" with "nationalistically/ethnically zealous"

You don't willingly move from a nice home on Long Island to a fuckin war zone with your family unless you got some fuckin issues.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #72 - June 16, 2010, 09:59 PM

Ah yes the American ones.. Quite an annoying bunch, at least the few I talked to were. Even many Tel Aviv Israelis don't like them apparently.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #73 - June 16, 2010, 10:10 PM

Yeah, well, from what I can tell, Israel is an extremely divided country culturally in many ways that would be struggling much harder to find cohesion if the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors all became hippies tomorrow. Real tension between the secular and religious Israelis especially that could potentially become very volatile without having a common enemy uniting them.

I mean, other than both being Jewish and speaking Hebrew, what does, say a poor, secular Russian Jew who moved to Israel in the 80s to have a more comfortable life have in common with a doctor from Long Island who suddenly became devoutly religious and decided to move to Israel as some kind of religious quest/pilgrimage? And shit-- the Ethiopian Jews. They're just barely above Arab-Israelis in that society. They've already had riots over discrimination by light-skinned Israelis. Then there's the whole Ashkenazi and Sephardi/Yemeni/Mizrahi divide.

For a country that is ethnically and even somewhat religiously/culturally homogeneous, there are some pretty major fault lines in that society.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #74 - June 16, 2010, 10:14 PM

They're quite worried about the growing number of haredim.. The haredim are most rapidly growing sector in Israeli society in fact. At this rate they're soon going to play an important role in Israeli society, and these are guys who beat women for sitting at the front and throw stones at cars for driving during the shabbat. The men don't even work or serve in the army. That's what I know for sure

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #75 - June 16, 2010, 10:19 PM

Quote from: ras111 on June 16, 2010, 10:14 PM
They're quite worried about the growing number of haredim.. The haredim are most rapidly growing sector in Israeli society in fact. At this rate they're soon going to play an important role in Israeli society, and these are guys who beat women for sitting at the front and throw stones at cars for driving during the shabbat. The men don't even work or serve in the army.

Yeah, those dudes are somewhere right in between Evangelical Christians and fundamentalist Muslims on the scary-meter. I have met some pretty cool haredi before, but then again I can say the same for fundamentalist Muslims and Christians. Even the scariest, most morally-objectionable sects tend to have a least a few people who are fundamentally good at their core and it shows through.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #76 - June 16, 2010, 10:21 PM

Quote
Q-Man

Got out at a good time I guess. Went to the US after that?

He settled in Honduras and married a native woman ( my Great-Grandmother )

Quote
So how do you feel about the Palestinian Christians who had their lands seized by Israel, were made into refugees and/or have been living under an oppressive foreign occupation for many decades?

Life in Israel sucks for the Palestinian Christians. Both the Israelis and Islamists give them a hard time. From what I've heard the Palestinian Christians are leaving the region.

Quote
How do you feel about Israel preventing Arafat and his Christian wife from going to the Church of the Nativity for Midnight Mass at Christmas?

From what I understand the Israeli government had forbidden Arafat from leaving Ramallah until he arrested four terrorists from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

I believe he brought that on himself.
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #77 - June 16, 2010, 10:32 PM

Quote from: QueenIsabel on June 16, 2010, 10:21 PM
He settled in Honduras and married a native woman ( my Great-Grandmother )

Okay, yeah, there are a good number of those of Palestinian descent in Latin America, particularly Central America come to think of it. Lebanese too. In fact, I think two of the founding leaders of El Salvador's FMLN were Palestinian-Salvadoran.

Quote
Life in Israel sucks for the Palestinian Christians. Both the Israelis and Islamists give them a hard time.

While this is true and persecution of them by Islamists has been on the rise in recent years-- in terms of scale there is really no comparison. What Palestinian Christians have suffered as a result of Muslim persecution in the last 60 years doesn't even come close to the bullshit Israel has put them through.

What I want to know is-- why do so many Christians in America let Israel off the hook for it? The question is at least partly rhetorical. I can see why for some Christians support of Israel trumps support of their Christian brothers and sisters in Palestine, even if the reasons for it are insane, morally abhorrent and/or hypocritical/dishonest.

Quote
From what I've heard the Palestinian Christians are leaving the region.

Yes, has been happening for some time now.

Quote
From what I understand the Israeli government had forbidden Arafat from leaving Ramallah until he arrested four terrorists from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

I believe he brought that on himself.

Oh please, that didn't give Israel the right to restrict the free exercise of religion of his family on one of the holiest of Christian holidays. Even murderers in prison are allowed to go to religious services.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #78 - June 16, 2010, 10:50 PM

Quote
Q-Man

Okay, yeah, there are a good number of those of Palestinian descent in Latin America, particularly Central America come to think of it. Lebanese too. In fact, I think two of the founding leaders of El Salvador's FMLN were Palestinian-Salvadoran.

Colombian singer Shakira's father is Lebanese.

Ecuador had a president of Lebanese descent. In fact some of Latin America's politicians are of Middle Eastern origin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_diaspora#Notable_persons

Quote
While this is true and persecution of them by Islamists has been on the rise in recent years-- in terms of scale there is really no comparison. What Palestinian Christians have suffered as a result of Muslim persecution in the last 60 years doesn't even come close to the bullshit Israel has put them through.

Actually the Palestinian Christians had to put up with a lot of persecution a few hundred years. I don't know how far back the tensions between the Christians and the Jews go, but the Christians in that region were persecuted under the Ottomen and other empires that once occupied the region.

Quote
What I want to know is-- why do so many Christians in America let Israel off the hook for it?

Many American Christians don't pay attention to the persecution of our brethren in other countries let alone pay attention to the Christians of Palestine.

Quote
Yes, has been happening for some time now.

That sucks.
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #79 - June 16, 2010, 11:01 PM

Quote from: ras111 on June 16, 2010, 09:12 PM
They're not many trust me. Most Israelis are quite secular and want to settle it with the Palestinians. The problem is that the fanatics wield a lot of power and influence.

Being secular does not mean you're not a fundamentalist.
In the last elections, the far-right Yisrael Beiteinu came third and Shas fifth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_legislative_election,_2009#Results

If you want to learn more, read this article http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/?page=1

Quote from: Q-Man on June 16, 2010, 09:36 PM
Right, and there are also Christian Palestinians, who Christians in the US often conveniently pretend don't exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boutros_Mouallem

His appointment as archbishop of Galilee was actively opposed by the government of Israel, who said that he favours the Palestine Liberation Organization, resulting in a row between the Holy See and the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The Holy See noted that selection of a bishop was matter reserved for the Church, "free of all external pressure," and that the Fundamental Accord between the Holy See and the State of Israel "provides for the autonomy of Church and State, each one in its own area." Sources close to Netanyahu said that he wanted to make a "courteous persuasion" in favor of the competing candidate after the PLO began to insistently intervene in favor of Mouallem.

Later, in October 2002, Archbishop Mouallem was prevented by Israeli airport guards from leaving Jerusalem to attend an interfaith meeting in London.

Note he's an Arab Israeli citizen not a Palestinian.

Quote from: Q-Man on June 16, 2010, 09:56 PM
Yes I'm aware some are secular-- for them just replace "religiously zealous" with "nationalistically/ethnically zealous"

You don't willingly move from a nice home on Long Island to a fuckin war zone with your family unless you got some fuckin issues.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #80 - June 16, 2010, 11:08 PM

Quote from: QueenIsabel on June 16, 2010, 10:50 PM
Colombian singer Shakira's father is Lebanese.

Yeah, so is Salma Hayek's. So apparently Lebanese dad + Hispanic mom = hot-as-hell daughter.

Quote
Actually the Palestinian Christians had to put up with a lot of persecution a few hundred years. I don't know how far back the tensions between the Christians and the Jews go, but the Christians in that region were persecuted under the Ottomen and other empires that once occupied the region.

Yes, of course, but that changed after the end of WWI, when the Christians and Muslims allied against the Brits and Zionist settlers. Over the last 60 some years is what I was talking about specifically, though-- and there's no doubt Israel has caused much more suffering to the Palestinian Christians than the Muslims have during that time.

You mentioned the PFLP earlier. It was founded by a secular Palestinian Christian, and Palestinian Christians occupied many positions of leadership throughout the various factions of the PLO in the early days, including Arafat's faction Fatah, and, of course, Arafat's wife was Maronite.

Now-- either all those Christians in the early days of the Palestinian liberation movement (and many still active to this day) were/are total fuckin idiots or there was some reason for them to believe they were better off living in a secularly-governed Muslim-majority Palestine than under Israeli rule. And they obviously felt that way since the 1930s.

Quote
Many American Christians don't pay attention to the persecution of our brethren in other countries let alone pay attention to the Christians of Palestine.

I dunno, I see a lot of Evangelical Christian publications and broadcasts based in the US complaining of Christian persecution in far off lands on a regular basis, but NEVER, EVER mention Israel's treatment of Palestinian Christians, and only stick up for them when the Muslims are doing the persecuting. 700 Club/CBN is one of the larger and more notable ones that comes to mind.

Quote
That sucks.

Indeed.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #81 - June 17, 2010, 07:11 PM

Quote from: allat on June 16, 2010, 06:14 PM

BTW, do you (or anyone) have a link/source for that number/estimate in bold. I've heard this before and need a credible source for it to use in heated internet (and offternet) debates about the ridonkulousness of the whole I-P issue.

Ya, sorry...I hope this helps:

UN Humanitarian Monitor for the Occupied Palestinian Territories (covers a several year period)
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Humanitarian_Monitor_Dec_07.pdf

This is a Human Rights NGO based in Israel, who's mission is: " to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel"
THE ISRAELI INFORMATION CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS
IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, that has a bit longer timeline
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

Both sources are used in a more simple to read format on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#Casualties

*Note, my intention for stating those figures was not to minimize them as they are (its a shame one person gets killed in this stupid conflict), but for some perspective, relating to my larger opinion

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #82 - June 17, 2010, 08:33 PM

Thanks for the links.

Quote from: Homer on June 17, 2010, 07:11 PM
*Note, my intention for stating those figures was not to minimize them as they are (its a shame one person gets killed in this stupid conflict), but for some perspective, relating to my larger opinion

Yep. Having some bigger perspective would do a lot of people a lot of good. Every single life is valuable and irreplaceable. This is just about getting some hard numbers into the discussions of who has a world-defining, earth-shattering cause, and who is being manipulated to think they do. Since both sides of the I-P debate love to think the universe revolves around them and their particular brand of victimhood, it's good to have these numbers and facts handy to try to hopefully shake them out of their collective narcissism (paradoxical phrase, but I think it's apt).

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #83 - June 17, 2010, 09:10 PM

Quote from: Homer on June 16, 2010, 05:58 PM
2nd, you know how many people have been killed in this conflict in the last 10 years? Around 5500 (on both sides).
In that same time frame how many people were killed in the congo war? What 3 million. How about currently in Darfur?

Oh, but the whole world, has to care about this one stupid conflict. Oh yes, its the greatest crisis of the century, heavens to betsy.

Yup. Here's a prtial list of the conflicts that are ongoing or has taken place in the last two decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide 800,000 killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_armed_conflict_%281964%E2%80%93present%29 50,000-200,000 casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Liberian_Civil_War 150,000 killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Congo_War over 200,000 civilians killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War 3,900,000 killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Civil_War 80,000-100,000 killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War +12,000 dead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War over 22,000 killed in total
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxalite-Maoist_insurgency 6,000 killed in total
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdish_Civil_War 5,000 casualties
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #84 - June 17, 2010, 09:28 PM

Well Yisrael Beiteniu may be fervent nationalists but they are also quite in favour of the creation of an adjacent Palestinian state. As far as I'm aware Likud's policies on this issue are still unclear.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #85 - June 17, 2010, 09:29 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 17, 2010, 09:10 PM
Yup. Here's a prtial list of the conflicts that are ongoing or has taken place in the last two decades....

Thanks for the research, IA.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #86 - June 17, 2010, 09:31 PM

Quote from: ras111 on June 17, 2010, 09:28 PM
Well Yisrael Beiteniu may be fervent nationalists but they are also quite in favour of the creation of an adjacent Palestinian state. As far as I'm aware Likud's policies on this issue are still unclear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#Likud_charter

Quote from: allat on June 17, 2010, 09:29 PM
Thanks for the research, IA.
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #87 - June 17, 2010, 09:34 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 17, 2010, 09:10 PM
Yup. Here's a prtial list of the conflicts that are ongoing or has taken place in the last two decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide 800,000 killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_armed_conflict_%281964%E2%80%93present%29 50,000-200,000 casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Liberian_Civil_War 150,000 killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Congo_War over 200,000 civilians killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War 3,900,000 killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Civil_War 80,000-100,000 killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War +12,000 dead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War over 22,000 killed in total
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxalite-Maoist_insurgency 6,000 killed in total
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdish_Civil_War 5,000 casualties

Also to be mentioned is Nagorno Karabakh, the insurgency in Yemen, Mogadishu. Eritrea are still fighting with Ethiopia. Then there's Balochistan and the one the Niger delta...

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #88 - June 17, 2010, 09:37 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 17, 2010, 09:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#Likud_charter

Quote
Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu, in his "National Security" platform, neither endorsed nor ruled out the idea of a Palestinian state

Benny has to be careful as well though as some of his religious allies would not like any land being given to the Palestinians. It is better that Lieberman has a powerful position than the other rightwing factions.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #89 - June 17, 2010, 09:41 PM

Yeah but Lieberman wants to "transfer" the Arab Israelis to the new state. Plus he's very bigoted against Arabs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman#Controversies
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