Do you support the state of Israel?

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- ras111
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #90 - June 17, 2010, 09:47 PM

True I bet anti Arab sentiment is high at the moment, but lets face it, I think working to ensure that a stable Palestinian state is established is far more important at the moment. Anti Arab sentiment can be dealt with later. The more people who support the creation of a Palestinian state in Israeli politics the better.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #91 - June 17, 2010, 10:00 PM

Also if I recall well Leiberman's proposal was one of 'no loyalty no citizenship' rather than transferring all the Israeli Arabs partition style.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #92 - June 17, 2010, 10:03 PM

Quote from: ras111 on June 17, 2010, 10:00 PM
Also if I recall well Leiberman's proposal was one of 'no loyalty no citizenship' rather than transferring all the Israeli Arabs partition style.

He proposes both:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieberman_Plan#Revocation_of_citizenship_through_transfer_of_territory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieberman_Plan#Revocation_of_citizenship_through_a_citizenship_oath
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #93 - June 17, 2010, 10:16 PM

That's territorial transfer, not population exchange.. It involves a redrawing of the borders. Depends where they are drawn obviously but I don't have any objections to it if the Arab residents there voluntarily accept Palestinian citizenship, once they are living within the borders of the new Palestinian state. It should only be done if a stable Palestinian state is established. The Israeli Arabs I have talked to don't really feel Israeli, so I doubt that they would refuse to become Palestinians.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #94 - June 17, 2010, 10:45 PM

Yeah if they let the Arab Israelis do it voluntarily I have no problem with that. But we both know that the Israelis won't allow it to happen. They're scared shitless of the so-called demographic threat.

Israeli Ambassador to the United States Michael Oren wrote about it in his essay "Seven Existential Threats"
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/seven-existential-threats-15124

"The Arab Demographic Threat.

Estimates of the Arab growth rate, both within Israel and the West Bank and Gaza, vary widely. A maximalist school holds that the Palestinian population on both sides of the 1949 armistice lines is expanding far more rapidly than the Jewish sector and will surpass it in less than a decade. Countering this claim, a minimalist school insists that the Arab birthrate in Israel is declining and that the population of the territories, because of emigration, is also shrinking.

Even if the minimalist interpretation is largely correct, it cannot alter a situation in which Israeli Arabs currently constitute one-fifth of the country’s population—one-quarter of the population under age 19--and in which the West Bank now contains at least 2 million Arabs.

Israel, the Jewish State, is predicated on a decisive and stable Jewish majority of at least 70 percent. Any lower than that and Israel will have to decide between being a Jewish state and a democratic state. If it chooses democracy, then Israel as a Jewish state will cease to exist. If it remains officially Jewish, then the state will face an unprecedented level of international isolation, including sanctions, that might prove fatal.

Ideally, the remedy for this dilemma lies in separate states for Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The basic conditions for such a solution, however, are unrealizable for the foreseeable future. The creation of Palestinian government, even within the parameters of the deal proposed by President Clinton in 2000, would require the removal of at least 100,000 Israelis from their West Bank homes. The evacuation of a mere 8,100 Israelis from Gaza in 2005 required 55,000 IDF troops—the largest Israeli military operation since the 1973 Yom Kippur War—and was profoundly traumatic. And unlike the biblical heartland of Judaea and Samaria, which is now called the West Bank, Gaza has never been universally regarded as part of the historical Land of Israel.

On the Palestinian side there is no single leadership at all, and certainly not one ready to concede the demand for the repatriation of Palestinian refugees to Israel or to forfeit control of even part of the Temple Mount (a necessary precondition for a settlement that does not involve the division of Jerusalem). No Palestinian leader, even the most moderate, has recognized Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state or even the existence of a Jewish people.

In the absence of a realistic two-state paradigm, international pressure will grow to transform Israel into a binational state. This would spell the end of the Zionist project. Confronted with the lawlessness and violence endemic to other one-state situations in the Middle East such as Lebanon and Iraq, multitudes of Israeli Jews will emigrate."
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #95 - June 17, 2010, 11:08 PM

Well given the reason why Israel was established and given the bloodshed the shifting in demographics would bring about, I can't blame them for being afraid. Even many Lebanese are afraid of the Palestinian demographic shift in their country. I'm sure any other population in any country would have the same fear in same situation.

PS.. You're avatar is going to make me grow white hair soon and age prematurely with the shock...

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #96 - June 17, 2010, 11:15 PM

The reason Israel was established will justify the ethnic cleansing of non-Jews in the long term.
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #97 - June 17, 2010, 11:27 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on June 17, 2010, 11:15 PM
The reason Israel was established will justify the ethnic cleansing of non-Jews in the long term.

It doesn't necessarily have to be that way if the Palestinian situation and population were to be stablised... somehow. The Druze seem to be getting along fine. Israel was not meant to be a Jewish only state either, even Hertzl mentioned that, if I remember well. The left are still significant in Israel so it would be difficult to get the full support of many of the Israeli population to do that.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #98 - June 18, 2010, 01:01 AM

Quote from: ras111 on June 17, 2010, 09:34 PM
Also to be mentioned is Nagorno Karabakh, the insurgency in Yemen, Mogadishu. Eritrea are still fighting with Ethiopia. Then there's Balochistan and the one the Niger delta...

And on my side of the Atlantic-- El Salvador, Nicaragua, Colombia, Haiti. Go back a couple more decades and the list gets much longer.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #99 - June 18, 2010, 01:04 AM

Quote from: ras111 on June 17, 2010, 11:27 PM
It doesn't necessarily have to be that way if the Palestinian situation and population were to be stablised... somehow. The Druze seem to be getting along fine. Israel was not meant to be a Jewish only state either, even Hertzl mentioned that, if I remember well. The left are still significant in Israel so it would be difficult to get the full support of many of the Israeli population to do that.

Not really. For the "Jewish State" to be maintained, the Jews must continue to be a dominant majority of the population. Just like the Ambassador put it.
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #100 - June 18, 2010, 11:21 PM

I support Israel.
It's time muslims and Jews live in peace and it has to start with Israel.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #101 - June 19, 2010, 12:40 AM

Quote
Saathiya

I support Israel.
It's time muslims and Jews live in peace and it has to start with Israel.

Yeah peace has to start with Israel. Everyone thinks creating a Palestinian state will solve the answer. But creating a Palestinian state will not get rid of the anger and hatred.
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #102 - June 19, 2010, 01:29 AM

Quote from: Saathiya on June 18, 2010, 11:21 PM
I support Israel.
It's time muslims and Jews live in peace and it has to start with Israel.

Quote from: QueenIsabel on June 19, 2010, 12:40 AM
Yeah peace has to start with Israel. Everyone thinks creating a Palestinian state will solve the answer. But creating a Palestinian state will not get rid of the anger and hatred.

Jews want to be dominant, they want to govern the land under their religion. Same thing with Muslims. Each of them wants to be the boss.
What we need is a completely secular state. No Israel, no Palstine. Just country X.
One citizenship, equal rights, NO ONE above the other.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #103 - June 19, 2010, 01:53 AM

The thing is if Muslims had their way they would be doing what Israel is doing right now...except to every non Muslim on the planet. It wouldn't matter if they felt they had an ancestral right to the land or not. They would try and invade Denmark just to "make the religion of Allah dominant on the earth".

Israel doesn't want the land in Denmark or Mecca or anywhere else. Also, they would be kicking Palestinians out of the gaza strip whether they were Muslim, Christian or Hare Krishnas.

If Muslims had there way Israel wouldn't exist nor any jewish state anywhere on the earth. So it makes me rage when Muslims cry about Israeli "injustice". When they would be commiting greater injustice if they could (and have done so to jews in the past).

Because the Muslims in this day and age are weak they have taken to whining whereas if they were strong they would be conquering everyone in sight.

Israel isn't taking Palestinian women as slaves. Muslims demand human rights from others but their religion doesn't grant those same human rights to non muslims.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #104 - June 19, 2010, 01:59 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #105 - June 19, 2010, 02:00 AM

Quote from: DigDug on June 19, 2010, 01:53 AM
The thing is if Muslims had their way they would be doing what Israel is doing right now...except to every non Muslim on the planet. It wouldn't matter if they felt they had an ancestral right to the land or not. They would try and invade Denmark just to "make the religion of Allah dominant on the earth".

Israel doesn't want the land in Denmark or Mecca or anywhere else. Also, they would be kicking Palestinians out of the gaza strip whether they were Muslim, Christian or Hare Krishnas.

If Muslims had there way Israel wouldn't exist nor any jewish state anywhere on the earth. So it makes me rage when Muslims cry about Israeli "injustice". When they would be commiting greater injustice if they could (and have done so to jews in the past).

Because the Muslims in this day and age are weak they have taken to whining whereas if they were strong they would be conquering everyone in sight.

Israel isn't taking Palestinian women as slaves. Muslims demand human rights from others but their religion doesn't grant those same human rights to non muslims.

Agree
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #106 - June 19, 2010, 02:08 AM

Quote from: DigDug on June 19, 2010, 01:53 AM
The thing is if Muslims had their way they would be doing what Israel is doing right now...except to every non Muslim on the planet. It wouldn't matter if they felt they had an ancestral right to the land or not. They would try and invade Denmark just to "make the religion of Allah dominant on the earth".
Israel doesn't want the land in Denmark or Mecca or anywhere else. Also, they would be kicking Palestinians out of the gaza strip whether they were Muslim, Christian or Hare Krishnas.
If Muslims had there way Israel wouldn't exist nor any jewish state anywhere on the earth. So it makes me rage when Muslims cry about Israeli "injustice". When they would be commiting greater injustice if they could (and have done so to jews in the past).
Because the Muslims in this day and age are weak they have taken to whining whereas if they were strong they would be conquering everyone in sight.
Israel isn't taking Palestinian women as slaves. Muslims demand human rights from others but their religion doesn't grant those same human rights to non muslims.

+1

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #107 - June 19, 2010, 02:25 AM

The Israel haters keep good company. If you hate Israel you have plenty of friends:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3903809,00.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907075,00.html

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/farc-ira-pr.cfm
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #108 - June 19, 2010, 02:34 AM

I dont hate Israel!
I'de rather live there than India.
But I do think Islamic countries need to change more than any other nations because that oil that they have going on, yeh, it wont last forever. they will be in civil war and their own people will go into poverty faster than they already are today.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #109 - June 19, 2010, 02:37 AM

I wasn't saying you did or anyone inparticular...
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #110 - June 19, 2010, 04:11 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c&feature=player_embedded

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #111 - June 19, 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 19, 2010, 01:53 AM
The thing is if Muslims had their way they would be doing what Israel is doing right now...except to every non Muslim on the planet. It wouldn't matter if they felt they had an ancestral right to the land or not. They would try and invade Denmark just to "make the religion of Allah dominant on the earth".

Israel doesn't want the land in Denmark or Mecca or anywhere else. Also, they would be kicking Palestinians out of the gaza strip whether they were Muslim, Christian or Hare Krishnas.

If Muslims had there way Israel wouldn't exist nor any jewish state anywhere on the earth. So it makes me rage when Muslims cry about Israeli "injustice". When they would be commiting greater injustice if they could (and have done so to jews in the past).

Because the Muslims in this day and age are weak they have taken to whining whereas if they were strong they would be conquering everyone in sight.

Israel isn't taking Palestinian women as slaves. Muslims demand human rights from others but their religion doesn't grant those same human rights to non muslims.

You are an idiot and so is everyone agreeing with you here. The Palestinian political and military leadership was secular until very recently. Yassir Arafat, George Habash and people like that had no interest in expelling all Jews from Palestine.

Quote from: Winston on June 19, 2010, 02:25 AM
The Israel haters keep good company. If you hate Israel you have plenty of friends:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3903809,00.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3907075,00.html

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/farc-ira-pr.cfm

Poisoning the well/guilt by association. Go fuck yourself.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #112 - June 19, 2010, 05:29 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on June 19, 2010, 05:16 PM
You are an idiot and so is everyone agreeing with you here. The Palestinian political and military leadership was secular until very recently. Yassir Arafat, George Habash and people like that had no interest in expelling all Jews from Palestine.

Why not read the post again. I never once said PALESTINIAN leadership I said Muslim leadership. Do you think the view I expressed in my post apply to Palestinian Christians? obviously not.

The current leadership in Palestine is an Islamic fundamentalist one. The world loves Yassir Arafat the only people who hate him are PALESTINIANS!! Why is that? lol

I know you are just a very emotional person but there is no need to call me an idiot.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #113 - June 19, 2010, 05:33 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 19, 2010, 05:29 PM
Why not read the post again. I never once said PALESTINIAN leadership I said Muslim leadership.

Then your post is irrelevant.

Quote
The current leadership in Palestine is an Islamic fundamentalist one.

Yes, but that is a relatively recent development, and Israel itself shares some blame for that.

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The world loves Yassir Arafat the only people who hate him are PALESTINIANS!! Why is that? lol

Palestinians do not hate Yassir Arafat-- I mean, I'm sure some do, but I think most were just disappointed with him towards the end more than anything else. And there a lot of Palestinians who still love him.

Quote
I know you are just a very emotional person but there is no need to call me an idiot.

There's no need, but it felt appropriate at the time.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #114 - June 19, 2010, 05:47 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on June 19, 2010, 05:33 PM
Then your post is irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant if the current leadership is an Islamic fundamentalist one?

Quote
Yes, but that is a relatively recent development,

No shit. So is the establishment of the Israeli state itself. So within roughly 50 years of Israel being established, we have a Muslim vs. Jewish holy war. And the only people that want this is Palestinian Muslims. Hence my post.

Quote
Palestinians do not hate Yassir Arafat-- I mean, I'm sure some do, but I think most were just disappointed with him towards the end more than anything else. And there a lot of Palestinians who still love him.€

I beg to differ, I would say about 90% hate him. If I'm just "disappointed" with someone I wouldn't launch a foul mouthed tirade cursing him and his mother...manyook seems to be their favorite word for him. Lets also not forget the overwhelming support for Hamas.

btw whats your background?

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #115 - June 19, 2010, 06:03 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 19, 2010, 05:47 PM
How is it irrelevant if the current leadership is an Islamic fundamentalist one?

Because your post completely ignores the historical context of the conflict and reduces it to Muslim vs. Jew.

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we have a Muslim vs. Jewish holy war. And the only people that want this is Palestinian Muslims.

Um, no. There are Israelis who want it too, even if they are the minority. There are some fuckin nutso Jewish religious zealots in Israel.

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I beg to differ, I would say about 90% hate him. If I'm just "disappointed" with someone I wouldn't launch a foul mouthed tirade cursing him and his mother...manyook seems to be their favorite word for him. Lets also not forget the overwhelming support for Hamas.

Okay, bud, whatever you say. Be nice if you could back it up with some convincing evidence, though.

Quote
btw whats your background?

You first, bub. I don't recall you posting an Intro thread here or anything.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #116 - June 19, 2010, 06:26 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on June 19, 2010, 06:03 PM
Because your post completely ignores the historical context of the conflict and reduces it to Muslim vs. Jew.

I didn't reduce it to Muslims vs Jews... the Palestinians did!! The reason for this is to try and drum up support for their cause from the Muslim "ummah".

All the views I expressed in my original post are those held by Hamas. The islamic fundamentalist leadership of the country in question. So my post is totally relevant because that is the CURRENT leadership.

I even pointed out that the jews don't care about religion...only the Palestinians do. The jews care about LAND plain and simple. The only ones trying to turn it into a religious thing are Muslims whether they be Palestinian or not.

The Palestinians hate Yassir Arafat because he is willing to negotiate. Palestinians (Muslims) don't like negotiating even if they are getting slaughtered.

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Um, no. There are Israelis who want it too, even if they are the minority. There are some fuckin nutso Jewish religious zealots in Israel.

There are "fuckin nutso" religious zealots everywhere. It just seems when it comes to Israel almost every Palestinian is a religious "nutso". lol. Even if they don't pray or anything they get religious and "nutso" when it comes to Israel.

When it comes to jews wanting religious war they are the most fringe of minorities.

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Okay, bud, whatever you say. Be nice if you could back it up with some convincing evidence, though.

brb polling every Palestinian in the world. I could ask you to back up your statements up with "convincing evidence" as well

Quote
You first, bub. I don't recall you posting an Intro thread here or anything.

What are you ashamed "bub"? I'll show you mine if you show me yours lol.

Someone asked me in another post and I told them. I'm white.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #117 - June 19, 2010, 06:36 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 19, 2010, 06:26 PM
I didn't reduce it to Muslims vs Jews... the Palestinians did!!

Brilliant.

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Even if they don't pray or anything they get religious and "nutso" when it comes to Israel.

Wait, so you mean even relatively secular people can go nuts over having their land stolen and being kept under an oppressive and humiliating military occupation by a foreign power for several decades? I'm shocked!

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brb polling every Palestinian in the world. I could ask you to back up your statements up with "convincing evidence" as well

I suppose you could but I'm not the one who started on making sweeping generalizations as to the attitude of Palestinians towards Yassir Arafat-- that's on you, kid.

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What are you ashamed "bub"? I'll show you mine if you show me yours lol.

Someone asked me in another post and I told them. I'm white.

Ain't ashamed of shit, fool. I posted an intro thread and have gone into my background on numerous occasions in this forum. You can look on my profile and find the posts yourself. I'm not going to offer up personal info and re-write shit I already wrote to someone who didn't even bother posting an Intro thread. Post an intro thread telling us your background and I will reciprocate here. In the meantime you are free to search my posts including my intro thread.

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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #118 - June 19, 2010, 06:56 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on June 19, 2010, 06:36 PM
Brilliant.

Way to dodge facts by just posting a sarcastic comment

brilliant

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Wait, so you mean even relatively secular people can go nuts over having their land stolen and being kept under an oppressive and humiliating military occupation by a foreign power for several decades? I'm shocked!

If a jewish kid takes my lunch money and humiliates me I don't make it a religious thing to hide the fact I'm a pussy who can't defend myself. It's ok to be nutso but not in a religious way.

Furthermore, if I can't beat up that jewish kid I dont go and blow myself up in order to kill his little sister and claim I'm doing it "in the name of Allah"

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I suppose you could but I'm not the one who started on making sweeping generalizations as to the attitude of Palestinians towards Yassir Arafat-- that's on you, kid.

I thought these "generalizations" were common knowledge.

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Ain't ashamed of shit, fool.

You obviously are. You asked me "to tell you my background first" and I did. Yet you still won't tell me.

Hiding your background isn't the characteristic of someone who is proud.

If someone asked me "what is your background" I would simply tell them.

Quote
I posted an intro thread and have gone into my background on numerous occasions in this forum. You can look on my profile and find the posts yourself.

Truthfully I wouldn't even care if you didn't come into this thread and call me an "idiot" especially when your opinions are based on EMOTIONS and are not rational. I find it funny because you would probably criticize Muslims for acting EMOTIONALLY on their faith as opposed to rationally.

The only reason this is happening is because instead of "respectfully disagreeing" with me and discussing things in a civil way, you came in this thread and acted like a little bitch. "bub"

I'm an asshat.
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Re: Do you support the state of Israel?
Reply #119 - June 19, 2010, 07:30 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 19, 2010, 06:56 PM
If a jewish kid takes my lunch money and humiliates me I don't make it a religious thing to hide the fact I'm a pussy who can't defend myself.

Forgetting for a moment that your analogy sucks big donkey balls, simply being a victim because the aggressor is more powerful does not necessarily make one a "pussy". Although it is interesting you use that analogy as it tends to shed some light on your "might-makes-right" morality.

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Furthermore, if I can't beat up that jewish kid I dont go and blow myself up in order to kill his little sister and claim I'm doing it "in the name of Allah"

Most wars of national liberation in the modern era involve such atrocities-- Ireland, Algeria, Vietnam, etc. Does not change the fact that a foreign occupier is ultimately responsible for the war being waged against them.

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I thought these "generalizations" were common knowledge.

Wrong.

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You obviously are. You asked me "to tell you my background first" and I did. Yet you still won't tell me.

I'm sorry-- when you said "background" I wrongly assumed you were asking me about my actual background-- where I come from, what my parents do, what my religious, personal and political experiences have been in a nutshell (the kind of things you would find on an intro post)-- not a simplistic and shallow question about my ethnicity.

See, that would be more accurately phrased as "What is your ethnic background"?

I am so sorry for assuming too much of you. My mother is Irish-American, my father from Egypt. I was born and raised in the US.

P.S.-- Suck my cock you little maggot.

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