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 Topic: Evolution and Morality

 (Read 42476 times)
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  • Evolution and Morality
     OP - June 26, 2010, 03:00 AM

    ok this post may seem a little fucked up and I'm not trying to start a debate just hear your views. Now to give you a little background before I became Muslim I lived a pretty materialistic life. i didn't care about religion or morals. The people I hung out with really didn't talk about this stuff.

    After I became Muslim you obviously know what i believed but it was during this time that I first started thinking about evolution seriously. I always rejected it when I was Muslim because it basically said we were animals and thats basically what drives us. food, shelter, reproduction. Our basic mission in life was to make sure our genes were passed on to the next generation.

    Now I take it most (if not all of you) believe in evolution. Survival of the fittest. but you guys also seem to believe in a world view that somewhat contradicts "survival of the fittest". It almost seems that people who try and do exatcly what humans are supposed to (pass on their genes in the best way possible) are deemed to be immoral.

    Ghengis Khan would be a perfect example of this. I read that 1 out of 5 chinese people have his genes in their body. He would be the ultimate example of someone who made sure their genes lived on. But he did this through rape murder ect. "survival of the fittest" but people will criticize Muhammad for his immorality but he didn't do 1/10th of the shit genghis khan did.

    So how is ghenghis khan (or muhammad) immoral for basically doing what humans are supposed to do? If our ancestors didn't do similar things we would not be here today. Animals aren't evil for fighting each other. Animals more or less force themselves on their mate and it's not considered evil.

    People talk about all the evil religion has caused but it seems darwinism has caused even more because it has spawned all kinds of thing like nazi eugenics ect. which make total sense in relation to evolution if you think about it. (i.e killing retarded people, people with birth defects ect..)

    So how can we say the morals of a certain religion are wrong when we are basically just animals and anything goes. Animals can't be evil. There is preadtor and prey. But now if you are seen as predatory against other humans this is frowned upon. It seems these new age world views only serve to keep weaker genes in the pool and actually protect inferior humans despite this being contrary to "survival of the fittest".

    Shouldn't we kinda try to live our lives like this...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V30tyaXv6EI

    I'm just asking this because i really dont know what to believe after Islam.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #1 - June 26, 2010, 03:28 AM

    Evolution is simply a scientific theory that explains how life developed on this planet and how it continues to be developed. Its not a philosophy that says we should or shouldn't do something. Its neutral, just like the theory or gravity or relativity are neutral.

    Only a weak minded person would say that we shouldn't research our origins or ignore all the scientific evidence for evolution simply because it points out a reality they don't want to see: that we are animals, and unimportant to the scheme of the universe.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #2 - June 26, 2010, 03:37 AM

    Only a weak minded person would say that we shouldn't research our origins or ignore all the scientific evidence for evolution simply because it points out a reality they don't want to see: that we are animals, and unimportant to the scheme of the universe.


    Thats not what I mean. I'm more or less saying that I'm leaning towards evolution but i don't understand why we deny people a basic human right of "survival of the fittest". It's more like ok lets put the weaker people on the same footing as the strongest (through morals) and therefore keep inferior genes in the pool and make the human race weaker as a whole.

    If our ancestors did this stuff we wouldn't be here today. I'm just asking how if we are all animals that you or I or anyone can deem the actions of another to be immoral.

    In the animal kingdom there is no mercy for the weak. But say if all the kids made fun of someone at school for being short this is considered immoral. But if you look at what they are doing is they are trying to ostrisize that one kid in an attempt to prevent him from reproducing because we dont want shitty genes in the pool.


    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #3 - June 26, 2010, 03:48 AM

    What exactly do you mean by 'weak people'?

    I think natural selection does a good enough job of weeding out the weak genes on its own: Women are hard wired to be attracted to strong, independent men, men are attracted to beautiful women, if someone appears sick/ill both men and women are not attracted to him and he/she is not likely to have many kids.

    That alone does a good enough job of weeding out diseases, etc from our genes, and the evidence is in front of you, the human race hasn't become weaker as time goes on, we have become taller, more intelligent, etc.

    Also, I should clarify, we are animals in the physical sense of the word, obviously we aren't animals psychologically.. we are able to have our own morality, anything that hurts other people we are inclined to feel guilty towards.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #4 - June 26, 2010, 03:50 AM

    You're confusing darwinian evolution with "social darwinism" - they are 2 different things. Nature is extremely diverse. Ecosystems depend on synergistic, symbiotic co-operation between life forms, as much as or more than competition.

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#c2
    Quote
    Misconception:
    "Evolution supports the idea that 'might makes right' and rationalizes the oppression of some people by others."

    Response:
    In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, a philosophy called "Social Darwinism" arose from a misguided effort to apply lessons from biological evolution to society. According to this view, society should allow the weak and less fit to fail and die, and that this is not only good policy, but morally right. Supposedly, evolution by natural selection provided support for these ideas. Pre-existing prejudices were rationalized by the notion that colonized nations, poor people, or disadvantaged minorities must have deserved their situations because they were "less fit" than those who were better off. This misapplication of science was used to promote social and political agendas.

    The "science" of Social Darwinism was refuted. Biological evolution has stood the test of time, but Social Darwinism has not.


    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #5 - June 26, 2010, 04:01 AM

    What exactly do you mean by 'weak people'?

    I think natural selection does a good enough job of weeding out the weak genes on its own: Women are hard wired to be attracted to strong, independent men, men are attracted to beautiful women, if someone appears sick/ill both men and women are not attracted to him and he/she is not likely to have many kids.


    Yea I agree but what if we have two strong men competing over one woman. or you even have a strong man that already has a woman but wants to ensure his reproductive success so he decides to kill another man and forcibly take his woman. This is (apparently) immoral but how can we really say that because that is what goes down in the animal kingdom everyday.

    Quote
    Also, I should clarify, we are animals in the physical sense of the word, obviously we aren't animals psychologically..


    Also agree here but isn't this waht theist say "our belief in God separates us from the animals".

    Quote
    we are able to have our own morality, anything that hurts other people we are inclined to feel guilty towards.


    but its all subjective and dependant upon the scoiety were we raised in. muhammad obviously had no issue with the age of Ayesha nor did anyone in the scoiety. But we do now because that is deemed "immoral".

    Genghis khan didn't feel remorse for waht he did and he is one of the biggest success stories in terms of his genes survivig. He actually changed the face of the world with his genes and I don't think they will ever die out until the end of time.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #6 - June 26, 2010, 04:09 AM

    You're confusing darwinian evolution with "social darwinism" - they are 2 different things. Nature is extremely diverse. Ecosystems depend on synergistic, symbiotic co-operation between life forms, as much as or more than competition.

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#c2


    I read a book called "sperm wars" which states that rape is actually a viable reproduction strategy. It obviously worked for Ghenghis Khan but nowadays it would be considered immoral because we were hurting another person.

    But animals hurt each other all the time and this is not considered to be immoral and we are just animals after all.

    That point by berkely seems to me to just try and hide the true nature of evolution because if this "social darwinism" existed the world would be a warzone. I highly doubt our ancestors sat around and shared food and sang songs around the campfire. If someone was weak they weren't eating.

    This is just an attempt to control human beings through laws (exactly the same as religion)

    Do you feel that ghengis khan practised "social darwinism"? (i do)

    And we can't say that he wasn't a total success in terms of reproduction (the only real reason we exist)

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #7 - June 26, 2010, 04:18 AM

    What exactly do you mean by 'weak people'?


    I don't mean like people who are seriously diseased but say short males (5,9 and under), males with less than 20/20 vision, frail, small penis ect...these traits have no place in our gene pool and these people would not exist if it were not for modern morals (religious or otherwise) giving them a fair shot at reproduction.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #8 - June 26, 2010, 04:22 AM

    Here's my hypothesis based on different unrelated facts I've read over the past year.


    Evolution of morality is not difficult to explain.  Firstly you must think of the word "fittest" differently, it's really quite an inappropriate word.  Try some of these instead

    1: Best suited to the environment - For changes to the environment around you.  Actually it's more like "Death of the least suited to the environment"
    2: Most successful - This could be due to biological behaviour or to learned social behaviour.
    3: Most attractive - When creatures are very successful they can survive despite being more visually prominent, this makes it easier for mates to identify them resulting in things like prominent peacock tails.

    Now on to morality Smiley

    Mother fish which care for their eggs are more successful than those who do not, so the quirk in the brain which made the mother fish stay and defend her eggs proved to be better suited to survive and became more prevalent.  Now think of the father, if it stays around to look after the eggs as the mother does (also observed in nature) then the eggs will be more successful again.  If the father also defends the female then it increases their survival chances even more because they are a united force.

    What we have now is one fish willing to risk its life trying to save another with no common DNA. Whatever chemical reaction occurs in its brain to cause this is making the fish appear to act in what could be seen as an altruistic manner, however it is actually protecting it's own DNA which has already been passed on in the form of the eggs they are protecting. In protecting the mother it is indirectly protecting its offspring.

    Now move on to animals looking after their offspring after they are born, these are more successful too.  One side affect of having less predators is that fish ovulate less frequently and have fewer offspring in each batch (in an experiment on Guppie fish at least).  Instead of playing the numbers game it is possible a brain mutation could have caused low-risk animals to stay with their offspring causing them higher survival rates.

    So there are 2 examples of animals grouping together, but obviously attacking their own offspring (which would have happened) would be less successful, protecting them helped with success.

    There are a number of ways to explain how animals started to live in groups.  For example, pirhanas which attacked each other were more likely to die (even if you win you might die) but those which attacked non dangerous prey were more likely to live, so if there is no shortage in food they do not need to attack each other to eat.  They may even reach a point where they share larger food ("share" simply being the absence of challenging for the food.)  Or in harder times one pirhana might attack a prey too large out of desperation and another pirhana out of desperation joins in.  I am sure you can think of more, but in short some species found that cooperation is more successful.

    Now what happens when you get the same "father mutation" in a group? You will find that a group in your society are willing to defend the minority making the minority more likely to live.  This is group survival. You are risking your life to save DNA that is not yours, but in exchange others do the same increasing the survival rate of your own DNA. The benefit is greater than the cost.

    Pirhana don't kill each other even during a feeding frensy.
    Some parents will die protecting their young.
    Some fathers will die protecting their mate, who will protect theair offspring.
    Groups will help each other in order to protect themself and their offspring.

    Protecting in groups is simply a variation of hunting in groups.  From there we see morality, it would be seen as "immoral" for a mother fish to throw her fertilised eggs at a predator just to save herself but moral for a father to save the mother of its children.  Both are survival instincts, both would work, but different approaches worked for different species. It's perfectly moral for a mother rat to eat her own babies if threatened by a predator because she can use the food to survive and pass on her DNA at a later date.  Humans aren't unique in having morality, it's just that our morality is unique, but so is the "morality" (default biological behaviour) of other species.

    Morality is just group survival, but onto the issue of rape.  The male's desire to impregnate females is more successful if stronger. However the woman's desire to pick only the strongest mate is also strong because she has to dedicate at least 1 year from impregnation to raise a successful baby. Human women don't show visual signs of when they are ready to be fertilised, so partners which stayed around and had sex more often were more successful at impregnating females.  Staying around also helped the offspring to survive due to the father bringing food and protecting them, it also lets the offspring have a longer childhood which results in better social development and as a consequence better group survival.

    Females are more likely to reject "wham bam" males because they are not suitable as mates that stay around and help to raise their children, therefore the females that feared rape (unlike the rest of the animal kingdom) would possibly fight back, scream etc and try to keep them off.  I'd expect in the case of humans the group survival might would kick in and someone seeing a group member in distress would trigger a defence response from her peers and she'd be saved the ordeal. Therefore rape is wrong, and people who do not control their urge to impregnate women get ostracised by the community which can affectively be a death sentence.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #9 - June 26, 2010, 04:24 AM

    Yea I agree but what if we have two strong men competing over one woman. or you even have a strong man that already has a woman but wants to ensure his reproductive success so he decides to kill another man and forcibly take his woman. This is (apparently) immoral but how can we really say that because that is what goes down in the animal kingdom everyday.

    What you're saying is laughable. If someone goes and kills a guy and takes his woman, not only will she get an abortion, but the police will lock that guy up and he will die childless. What you're advocating will never work in the modern world between humans to give anyone any evolutionary advantage.

    If we go back thousands of years ago when humans lived in tribes, then yes, it may have been advantangeous at that point and yes, it may have occurred a lot as well in the past. The entire species of neandrethals is thought to have been wiped off by humans in a genocide. However, as society has went along, evolved better morals, better technology and tools, things which no other species have, these things i.e rape no longer provide any evolutionary advantage, rather they limit the reproductive success of the guy doing it.

    If someone is strong enough to physically kill all the guys around him, he will have enough pussy coming to him willingly that he wouldn't need to kill people to get any more. That's a fact of life.

    Also agree here but isn't this waht theist say "our belief in God separates us from the animals".

    Sure but they have zero evidence for what they say. So what's your point?

    but its all subjective and dependant upon the scoiety were we raised in. muhammad obviously had no issue with the age of Ayesha nor did anyone in the scoiety. But we do now because that is deemed "immoral".

    Mohammed was also claiming to be the prophet of god. The reason why his pedophelia gets so much attention is because he is thought of as a perfect example to all times.

    Genghis khan didn't feel remorse for waht he did and he is one of the biggest success stories in terms of his genes survivig. He actually changed the face of the world with his genes and I don't think they will ever die out until the end of time.

    Can you actually provide any sources for this, that Genghis khan's descendants are 1 in 5 in chinese? It doesn't sound believable, no matter how many women he raped.

    P.S What are you actually trying to say, what's your point? That we shouldn't research Evolution?
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #10 - June 26, 2010, 04:26 AM

    In the animal kingdom there is no mercy for the weak.


    In social animals you see it a lot, especially in more advanced species such as chimps.  However I once watched a few episodes of Mereket Manner. One got bitten by a snake whilst out foraging, for days its sibling stayed with it until it recovered.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #11 - June 26, 2010, 04:35 AM

    I don't mean like people who are seriously diseased but say short males (5,9 and under), males with less than 20/20 vision, frail, small penis ect...these traits have no place in our gene pool and these people would not exist if it were not for modern morals (religious or otherwise) giving them a fair shot at reproduction.

    #1: How does being shorter make you 'bad genes'? Both being short and tall has its own advantages and disadvantages. The only disadvantage of being shorter is that it makes you unattractive to some women, but for a lot of women it doesn't matter.

    #2 We have technology that makes vision problems no big deal, anyone with any vision can still be just as effective as someone with perfect vision in most life activities. The technology is improving as well.

    #3 Penis size is overrated.. the technique is what's important (unless you have like a 4 inch penis, in which case you need penis enhancement pills).

    So all disadvantages of these so-called bad traits can be countered with the help of technology. Which makes humans different than all other species, and which in turn changes these bad traits into neutral traits.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #12 - June 26, 2010, 04:43 AM

    What you're saying is laughable. If someone goes and kills a guy and takes his woman, not only will she get an abortion, but the police will lock that guy up and he will die childless. What you're advocating will never work in the modern world between humans to give anyone any evolutionary advantage.


    But this is the exact point Im making.

    Modern morals/laws give genetically inferior humans a greater chance at survival and reproduction.  

    Quote
    If we go back thousands of years ago when humans lived in tribes, then yes, it may have been advantangeous at that point and yes, it may have occurred a lot as well in the past. The entire species of neandrethals is thought to have been wiped off by humans in a genocide. However, as society has went along, evolved better morals, better technology and tools, things which no other species have, these things i.e rape no longer provide any evolutionary advantage, rather they limit the reproductive success of the guy doing it.


    But if at one point it was avantageous we can't call rape immoral. Humanists call rape immoral because you are hurting another human not because it doesn't provide an evolutionary advantage.

    Quote
    Mohammed was also claiming to be the prophet of god. The reason why his pedophelia gets so much attention is because he is thought of as a perfect example to all times.


    I agree. But this is kinda like you are arguing from a position of another religion. If we believe that we are all basically mammals...mammals show their readiness to reproduce by menstruation which ayesha was. I dont think we can call two cats immoral for having sex when they are both bioloically ready.

    Quote
    Can you actually provide any sources for this, that Genghis khan's descendants are 1 in 5 in chinese? It doesn't sound believable, no matter how many women he raped.


    I will have to find this i remeber reading it somewhere. His sons also did the exact same shit he did so they also passed on his genes and their sons ect.. so it's actually not that far fetched.

    Quote
    P.S What are you actually trying to say, what's your point? That we shouldn't research Evolution?


    Not at all.

    I'm trying to ask how can we say what is moral and what is not moral when we are all just animals. Ghengis Khan was just doing his thing reproducing and surviving. It isn't his responsibility to worry about who he hurt. It would be like saying when two rams butt heads they are being immoral. or if a wold eats a sheep he is evil.



    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #13 - June 26, 2010, 04:44 AM

    Females are more likely to reject "wham bam" males because they are not suitable as mates that stay around and help to raise their children, therefore the females that feared rape (unlike the rest of the animal kingdom) would possibly fight back, scream etc and try to keep them off.  I'd expect in the case of humans the group survival might would kick in and someone seeing a group member in distress would trigger a defence response from her peers and she'd be saved the ordeal. Therefore rape is wrong, and people who do not control their urge to impregnate women get ostracised by the community which can affectively be a death sentence.


    Very good explanation  Afro
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #14 - June 26, 2010, 04:48 AM

    Here's my hypothesis based on different unrelated facts I've read over the past year.


    Evolution of morality is not difficult to explain.  Firstly you must think of the word "fittest" differently, it's really quite an inappropriate word.  Try some of these instead

    1: Best suited to the environment - For changes to the environment around you.  Actually it's more like "Death of the least suited to the environment"
    2: Most successful - This could be due to biological behaviour or to learned social behaviour.
    3: Most attractive - When creatures are very successful they can survive despite being more visually prominent, this makes it easier for mates to identify them resulting in things like prominent peacock tails.


    this is a very interesting post. I agree with what you are saying. If you think it is in your best interests to settle down with a woman have a small amount of kids and focus on protecting them this is your right as a human.

    But it seems nowadays if someone wants to use mass rape as a reproduction strategy this is immoral. Even if it's not a viable one that human should still have the right to attempt it. It's like a "might is right" thing. Ghengis Khan was mighty enough to pull off what he did because nobody could stop him. And nobody can deny the huge success he achieved.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #15 - June 26, 2010, 04:56 AM

    But this is the exact point Im making.

    Modern morals/laws give genetically inferior humans a greater chance at survival and reproduction.

    You're wrong. The superior males don't need to rape. They are getting enough already. Women throw themselves at strong, successful men. The only people who need to rape are the social misfits, criminals, and other looners and hence inferior.

    But if at one point it was avantageous we can't call rape immoral. Humanists call rape immoral because you are hurting another human not because it doesn't provide an evolutionary advantage.

    It was advantageous only to the man. Read Rationalizer's explanation above for why it wouldn't be advantageous to the woman and to the group as whole.

    I agree. But this is kinda like you are arguing from a position of another religion. If we believe that we are all basically mammals...mammals show their readiness to reproduce by menstruation which ayesha was. I dont think we can call two cats immoral for having sex when they are both bioloically ready.

    No, no, no. They don't show it by menstruation. There are other signs, at the least the woman has to have a developed enough pelvis for giving birth to the child, and breasts for lactating. Mohammed fucking a 9 year old girl, or anyone else doing it, was simply following his own perverted fantasies.

    I will have to find this i remeber reading it somewhere. His sons also did the exact same shit he did so they also passed on his genes and their sons ect.. so it's actually not that far fetched.

    Even if its true, what does it prove? It shows that it was very successful for Genghis khan personally, but was it beneficial for human race as a whole? What benefit did it bring to the society in which these rapes occured?

    I'm trying to ask how can we say what is moral and what is not moral when we are all just animals. Ghengis Khan was just doing his thing reproducing and surviving. It isn't his responsibility to worry about who he hurt. It would be like saying when two rams butt heads they are being immoral. or if a wold eats a sheep he is evil.


    As a whole, if people cooperate rather than fight, they are more successful both individually and as societies and species. This is why we have an innate sense of empathy towards other people, some more so than others, and why we generally follow the golden rule, i.e do unto others as you'd want to be done to yourself.  Because humans have the ability to develop technology that counters a lot of 'disadvantages' or 'bad traits', we don't have any need to weed out those genes out anymore.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #16 - June 26, 2010, 04:57 AM

    In this thread, I am detecting this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

    Edited cause I linked the wrong fallacy ^_^

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #17 - June 26, 2010, 04:59 AM

    #1: How does being shorter make you 'bad genes'? Both being short and tall has its own advantages and disadvantages. The only disadvantage of being shorter is that it makes you unattractive to some women, but for a lot of women it doesn't matter.


    If two males did battle its usually the larger one that wins (or atleast has the advantage)

    Quote
    #2 We have technology that makes vision problems no big deal, anyone with any vision can still be just as effective as someone with perfect vision in most life activities. The technology is improving as well.


    this is true but it shouldn't change our hardwired evolutionary traits. It can apply to alot of things..someone could have shitty teeth genetics but you would never know it cause of modern dentistry. But say two shitty teeth parents had a shitty teeth kid and couldn't afford the dentist that kid would be fucked. So even with this modern tech I think humans are still hardwired to want the best possible genes for their offspring.

    Quote
    #3 Penis size is overrated.. the technique is what's important (unless you have like a 4 inch penis, in which case you need penis enhancement pills).


    haha i think if we look at the true studies women prefer larger penises. Genital display seems to be a big thin in the animal kingdom too.

    Quote
    So all disadvantages of these so-called bad traits can be countered with the help of technology. Which makes humans different than all other species, and which in turn changes these bad traits into neutral traits.


    I see your point but I still don't think this can change millions of years of evolution hardwired into our brains. It's also interesting because humans are always trying to trick their mate into wanting their genes. i.e women usin red lipstick

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #18 - June 26, 2010, 05:01 AM

    It's like a "might is right" thing. Ghengis Khan was mighty enough to pull off what he did because nobody could stop him. And nobody can deny the huge success he achieved.

    Genghis Khan was obviously not strong enough to attract enough women to himself willingly. If he had to use force, he was by definition 'bad genes'.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #19 - June 26, 2010, 05:02 AM

    In this thread, I am detecting this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

    Edited cause I linked the wrong fallacy ^_^


    interesting.

    Alternatively, the phrase "naturalistic fallacy" is used to refer to the claim that what is natural is inherently good or right, and that what is unnatural is bad or wrong

    I see people using this to say that circumcision is wrong ect...

    I'm not exactly a debator and I never claimed to be...

    I'm just asking..."if our purpose on this planet is to reproduce and make sure our genes survive over all others how can we call Ghengis Khan immoral when he was just doing his thing"

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #20 - June 26, 2010, 05:04 AM

    Genghis Khan was obviously not strong enough to attract enough women to himself willingly. If he had to use force, he was by definition 'bad genes'.


    Also I wouldnt exactly say thats true...but assuming it is fair enough. I'm just trying to say that anything goes in the animal kingdom.


    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #21 - June 26, 2010, 05:12 AM

    If two males did battle its usually the larger one that wins (or atleast has the advantage)

     Cheesy Cheesy Dude are you for real??  We aren't living in a jungle in africa! If 2 people combat, the winner will be whoever has the better gun and is more skilled in using it!

    Even in hand to hand combat it will depend on the skill in using martial arts as well as the strength which is developed from working out, not genetically!

    But if you're talking about a 4 feet guy VS a 6 feet guy in hand 2 hand combat then I see your point. But again, we rarely need to fight these days, so this is hardly an important attribute.

    this is true but it shouldn't change our hardwired evolutionary traits. It can apply to alot of things..someone could have shitty teeth genetics but you would never know it cause of modern dentistry. But say two shitty teeth parents had a shitty teeth kid and couldn't afford the dentist that kid would be fucked. So even with this modern tech I think humans are still hardwired to want the best possible genes for their offspring.

    OK so #1: Either the kid will find a way to get the money, charity, using his brains, whatever, to get his teeth fixed, or #2: No woman would fuck him cuz of his teeth and his genes will die out due to natural selection. In either case Natural selection is going to do its job just fine, we don't need to take it in our hands by killing everyone with bad teeth, that's fucking stupid.

    Also, as time goes on, medical technology is only going to advance, if something costs $10k today, it will cost $5k in 30 years. Hence by the time that kid has grandchildren, it would likely be cheap enough that anyone could afford it.
    haha i think if we look at the true studies women prefer larger penises. Genital display seems to be a big thin in the animal kingdom too.

    We're not talking about which they like to look at better, but whether penis size matters when they're looking for a mate. If a guy has a lot of other good traits but has a 5 inch cock, most women would choose him over a guy who is a criminal but has a 9 inch cock.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #22 - June 26, 2010, 05:16 AM

    I'm just asking..."if our purpose on this planet is to reproduce and make sure our genes survive over all others how can we call Ghengis Khan immoral when he was just doing his thing"

    Its not just about individual survival and spreading individual genes, its about survival of our species as a whole. If some guy goes and does something destructive to other humans, that is bad for our species because if more people begin to do the same thing, we will end up becoming our own worse enemies. Wiping of all genes in your tribe / country = BAD.

    By the way, you'd find it interesting to read about how ants and worker bees live only to work, and never reproduce individually, but only help the queen bee reproduce (or something like that). They sacrifice themselves just so the genes of the colony as a whole go on.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #23 - June 26, 2010, 05:19 AM

    Also I wouldnt exactly say thats true...but assuming it is fair enough. I'm just trying to say that anything goes in the animal kingdom.

    Different strategies work for different species. Lions and snakes are lone creatures and some strategies work for them, but they don't work for social species such as humans, ants, and bees which rely on cooperation for individual and species' survival as a whole.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #24 - June 26, 2010, 05:23 AM

    Cheesy Cheesy Dude are you for real??  We aren't living in a jungle in africa! If 2 people combat, the winner will be whoever has the better gun and is more skilled in using it!


    you are right. but that wasn't how we evolved and those deisrable genetic traits aren't going anywhere. I don't think there are very woman alive that would prefer a 5,7 man over a 6,2 man.

    likewise I don't think there are very many men who if given the choice would rather be 5,7 than 6,2.

    Quote
    Even in hand to hand combat it will depend on the skill in using martial arts as well as the strength which is developed from working out, not genetically!


    again you are right but the size will be an advantage no matter what.

    Quote
    But if you're talking about a 4 feet guy VS a 6 feet guy in hand 2 hand combat then I see your point. But again, we rarely need to fight these days, so this is hardly an important attribute.


    but gentically it is.

    Quote
    OK so #1: Either the kid will find a way to get the money, charity, using his brains, whatever, to get his teeth fixed, or #2: No woman would fuck him cuz of his teeth and his genes will die out due to natural selection. In either case Natural selection is going to do its job just fine, we don't need to take it in our hands by killing everyone with bad teeth, that's fucking stupid.


    haha I don't mean to take it that far but im saying modern laws/morals stop one genetically superior man from impregnating many females leaving the inferior males to die with their lesser genes. (and this contradicts evolution imo)

    Quote
    Also, as time goes on, medical technology is only going to advance, if something costs $10k today, it will cost $5k in 30 years. Hence by the time that kid has grandchildren, it would likely be cheap enough that anyone could afford it.We're not talking about which they like to look at better, but whether penis size matters when they're looking for a mate.


    I think penis size is alot more important than you are aware of. If women had the choice (and the ones with the best genes get their pick) they would want to slect the best possible mate in all aspects.

    Quote
    If a guy has a lot of other good traits but has a 5 inch cock, most women would choose him over a guy who is a criminal but has a 9 inch cock.


    I think if the woman had her way she would want the genetically superior male to father her child and have the inferior one raise, feed, protect the child. If the genetically superior one was not the best option as a nurturer.


    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #25 - June 26, 2010, 05:31 AM

    Its not just about individual survival and spreading individual genes, its about survival of our species as a whole. If some guy goes and does something destructive to other humans, that is bad for our species because if more people begin to do the same thing, we will end up becoming our own worse enemies. Wiping of all genes in your tribe / country = BAD.


    But ghengis khan created a shitload of humans. I don't see how what he did was bad from a "survival" standpoint.

    From what I understand it is first and foremost we want OUR genes to live on. That is why we feel jealousy over a mate, compete with other males ect..

    Quote
    By the way, you'd find it interesting to read about how ants and worker bees live only to work, and never reproduce individually, but only help the queen bee reproduce (or something like that). They sacrifice themselves just so the genes of the colony as a whole go on.


    this is interesting but from what I understand we evolved from mammals and this is not their charateristic.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #26 - June 26, 2010, 05:34 AM

    What you're not understanding is that all of those traits i.e short height, bad vision, etc are annoyances at best, we are no longer living in a world where humans are under a lot of selective pressure so someone with bad vision will die out.  We have technology to counter all those issues, and that technology will only get better with time. Hence, we don't need to kill our own or let them die for the sake of evolution.

    If someone has bad vision, it doesn't affect you personally, its his own problem. If two parents with poor vision have kids with poor vision, so what? They can wear glasses. It doesn't stop you from having as many kids as you want. So what benefit will it bring to you to kill him?

    I really don't understand what you're trying to say. We should live as animals and be free to kill/rape anyone? If that were the case you do realize that you'd be just as likely to be killed, your family raped, etc by others too, right?
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #27 - June 26, 2010, 05:35 AM

    Different strategies work for different species. Lions and snakes are lone creatures and some strategies work for them, but they don't work for social species such as humans, ants, and bees which rely on cooperation for individual and species' survival as a whole.


    good point but i'm kinda saying that humans have the right to try any strategy that they feel works. So if someon goes on a rape spree tommorow that may be illegal but I don't see how you can say its "immoral" since they are just trying to pass their genes on in the best way they can.

    It would be like saying a wolf is immoral for eating sheep. or a shark is immoral for eating a swimmer.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #28 - June 26, 2010, 05:40 AM

    But ghengis khan created a shitload of humans. I don't see how what he did was bad from a "survival" standpoint.

    Because if you have a lot of people going around killing everyone and mass raping everyone, this will cause a lot of violence which will make the world a dangerous place to live in. It certainly totally destroyed a lot of cities he went through.

    Secondly, we don't want a lot of human beings produced. The resources of the planet are limited. That's why we have population control.

    From what I understand it is first and foremost we want OUR genes to live on. That is why we feel jealousy over a mate, compete with other males ect..

    First and foremost, yes, but if you do something that endangers the entire tribe you live in, that's bad from an evolutionary standpoint.

    And for fuck's sake, no one in their right mind even wants to father 5000 children. What are you on about?

    this is interesting but from what I understand we evolved from mammals and this is not their charateristic.

    Humans have a social structure very similar to ants, which is not found in any of the mammals. That's why an evolutionary strategy effective for other social creatures is going to be effective for humans as well.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #29 - June 26, 2010, 05:43 AM

    good point but i'm kinda saying that humans have the right to try any strategy that they feel works. So if someon goes on a rape spree tommorow that may be illegal but I don't see how you can say its "immoral" since they are just trying to pass their genes on in the best way they can.

    It would be like saying a wolf is immoral for eating sheep. or a shark is immoral for eating a swimmer.

    Its immoral because they are fucking up a social structure that has helped humans survive. One guy goes on a rape spree, 500 other guys also go on a rape spree because if he can, why can't I. Next thing you know people are murdering and killing and robbing each other all over, and massive violence has broken out. Survival of species as a whole > individual survival.

    Edit: Plus, years or decades wasted in violence = time that could have helped do research that helps human species as a whole survive when an epedemic like bird flu or swine flu or something even worse breaks out.
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