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Theme Changer

 Topic: Evolution and Morality

 (Read 42540 times)
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  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #30 - June 26, 2010, 05:56 AM

    Because if you have a lot of people going around killing everyone and mass raping everyone, this will cause a lot of violence which will make the world a dangerous place to live in. It certainly totally destroyed a lot of cities he went through.


    It would be dangerous for genetically inferior people (or weak) people. It all breaks down to survival of the fittest and ghengis khan was the fittest.

    Quote
    Secondly, we don't want a lot of human beings produced. The resources of the planet are limited. That's why we have population control.


    Yea just like the nazis. but except they tried to control it by eliminating what they believed to be genetically inferior people like jews and gypsies ect...what they did makes perfect sense from an evolutionary standpoint (imo)

    Quote
    First and foremost, yes, but if you do something that endangers the entire tribe you live in, that's bad from an evolutionary standpoint.


    but ghengis khan didn't endanger his tribe...hr built a huge empire all carrying his genes and passing them on to future generations until today.

    Quote
    And for fuck's sake, no one in their right mind even wants to father 5000 children. What are you on about?


    I would for sure. (especially from an evolutionary standpoint)

    If Joe has only 2 children and he is driving them to school and crashes they car and they all die. Thats the end of Joe's genes for all eternity. he is wiped out of time. A genetic failure.

    If joe has 100 kids they could all die in a tsunami along with joe and the same thing happens.

    If he has 5000 the odds of his genes surviving increase greatly

    Quote
    Humans have a social structure very similar to ants, which is not found in any of the mammals. That's why an evolutionary strategy effective for other social creatures is going to be effective for humans as well.


    interesting. but im saying humans are allowed to do any reproductive means they want. its all good.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #31 - June 26, 2010, 05:58 AM

    But it seems nowadays if someone wants to use mass rape as a reproduction strategy this is immoral. Even if it's not a viable one that human should still have the right to attempt it. It's like a "might is right" thing. Ghengis Khan was mighty enough to pull off what he did because nobody could stop him. And nobody can deny the huge success he achieved.


    Remember that the core of our morality (murder/possibly rape) is part of our biological leash.  Killing a baby is biologically immoral whereas women going out without covering their ankles in some countries is socially immoral.

    Another thing to remember is that evolved mutations are not perfect, they are just the most successful (not even the most suited in some cases.)  Some mutations piggy-back along with successful mutations, it's not only the successful mutation that survives, unsuccessful ones get passed on too if there is another highly successful mutation in the DNA.

    Also remember that what is successful today is based on society and technology. Today it is possible for people like Stephen Hawking to be very successful whereas millions or billions of years ago he'd probably have died (before social support.)

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #32 - June 26, 2010, 06:01 AM

    good point but i'm kinda saying that humans have the right to try any strategy that they feel works. So if someon goes on a rape spree tommorow that may be illegal but I don't see how you can say its "immoral" since they are just trying to pass their genes on in the best way they can.

    It would be like saying a wolf is immoral for eating sheep. or a shark is immoral for eating a swimmer.


    No it wouldn't be the same at all.  Humans have empathy.  We know that rape is physically and mentally traumatic and our empathy makes us abhor suffering in others.  You are confusing "sexual urge to reproduce" with rape.  Besides, rape is rarely about sex let alone sexual reproduction.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #33 - June 26, 2010, 06:03 AM

    Its immoral because they are fucking up a social structure that has helped humans survive. One guy goes on a rape spree, 500 other guys also go on a rape spree because if he can, why can't I. Next thing you know people are murdering and killing and robbing each other all over, and massive violence has broken out. Survival of species as a whole > individual survival.

    Edit: Plus, years or decades wasted in violence = time that could have helped do research that helps human species as a whole survive when an epedemic like bird flu or swine flu or something even worse breaks out.


    I dont see how this "all for one" mentality exists in "survival of the fittest" it certainly doesn't exist within the animal kingdom. Each animal just focuses on his own reproduction and survival. Even if that means fighting another animal of their own species.

    I know insects behave differetly but we can't deny humans have fought/competed with eachother since the begginning of time.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #34 - June 26, 2010, 06:04 AM

    No it wouldn't be the same at all.  Humans have empathy.  We know that rape is physically and mentally traumatic and our empathy makes us abhor suffering in others.  You are confusing "sexual urge to reproduce" with rape.  Besides, rape is rarely about sex let alone sexual reproduction.



    sex and reproduction are the exact same thing. whether ghengis khan raped women with the intent to reproduce or just to satisfy his desires the end result was the same. A huge redproductive success.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #35 - June 26, 2010, 06:09 AM

    It would be dangerous for genetically inferior people (or weak) people. It all breaks down to survival of the fittest and ghengis khan was the fittest.


    Which is why he got away with it.  However if someone tried to rape someone near me I'd hurt them, if it were a member of my family I might go as far as to kill them.  But what you are still ignoring is that the sense of social solidarity and empathy evolved much earlier at a time where offspring needed more than one parent to raise them.
    [/quote]



    If Joe has only 2 children and he is driving them to school and crashes they car and they all die. Thats the end of Joe's genes for all eternity. he is wiped out of time. A genetic failure.

    If joe has 100 kids they could all die in a tsunami along with joe and the same thing happens.

    If he has 5000 the odds of his genes surviving increase greatly


    Which we ALSO see in the animal kingdom, fish spewing billions of eggs in a stream, male fish fertilising them, neither sticking around to raise them - but how many of those billions of eggs survive to reproduce? A tiny fraction of a percent.

    How many babies of chimps (ruling out technology here) survive, maybe 50%?  Without a society nobody can raise 5,000 children whereas just about anyone could raise a single child every few years.

    If a lion is defeated by another lion the first thing the new lion does is to kill the previous lion's cubs.  The female then instantly goes into heat and mates with it.  That worked for lions, but if the original lion had 5 brothers and 4 cousins living with it and all willing to attack the intruder which is trying to hurt one of their clan then you wouldn't see this behaviour.

    We are all products of circumstances.  Different species experienced different circumstances and therefore have different physical features, behaviours, and "morality".

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #36 - June 26, 2010, 06:10 AM

    sex and reproduction are the exact same thing. whether ghengis khan raped women with the intent to reproduce or just to satisfy his desires the end result was the same. A huge redproductive success.


    But it was ONLY successful because of the support he had from his community.  Had he been alone (which most rapists are) his success rate would be far lower than that of people who find a consenting mate.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #37 - June 26, 2010, 06:11 AM

    Remember that the core of our morality (murder/possibly rape) is part of our biological leash.  Killing a baby is biologically immoral whereas women going out without covering their ankles in some countries is socially immoral.


    In the book "sperm wars" its shows how the people who marry a spouse that previously has kids will try and push those other kids away once they and their new spouse have had their own. This is because they want to give their own offspring the best chance for survial. earlier man would just simply kill these children and father new ones with the woman.

    the only reason we exist is to pass on OUR genes.

    Quote
    Another thing to remember is that evolved mutations are not perfect, they are just the most successful (not even the most suited in some cases.)  Some mutations piggy-back along with successful mutations, it's not only the successful mutation that survives, unsuccessful ones get passed on too if there is another highly successful mutation in the DNA.


    interesting.

    Quote
    Also remember that what is successful today is based on society and technology. Today it is possible for people like Stephen Hawking to be very successful whereas millions or billions of years ago he'd probably have died (before social support.)


    but he is still a reproductive failure. and to be honest for all stephen hawking has accomplished i dont think anyone would want to be in his shoes.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #38 - June 26, 2010, 06:12 AM

    I dont see how this "all for one" mentality exists in "survival of the fittest" it certainly doesn't exist within the animal kingdom. Each animal just focuses on his own reproduction and survival. Even if that means fighting another animal of their own species.

    I know insects behave differetly but we can't deny humans have fought/competed with eachother since the begginning of time.


    I explained in GREAT detail how social bonds are formed.  It exists all over the place in nature (attack an ants' nest).  If you are going to forget everything you are told within an hour of reading it then there's not much point explaining anything to you.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #39 - June 26, 2010, 06:13 AM

    But it was ONLY successful because of the support he had from his community.  Had he been alone (which most rapists are) his success rate would be far lower than that of people who find a consenting mate.


    you are totally right. but how would our modern day rapist be doing something immoral but ghengis khan wasnt. I'm not saying our modern day rapist's strategy would be successful per se but we cant call him immoral

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #40 - June 26, 2010, 06:15 AM

    In the book "sperm wars" its shows how the people who marry a spouse that previously has kids will try and push those other kids away once they and their new spouse have had their own. This is because they want to give their own offspring the best chance for survial. earlier man would just simply kill these children and father new ones with the woman.


    In lions this is exactly what you see, but in social groups the rest of the extended family help to raise the children.  You are trying to see ONE successful pattern when in fact there are many successful patterns and we see them all.

    the only reason we exist is to pass on OUR genes.


    but he is still a reproductive failure. and to be honest for all stephen hawking has accomplished i dont think anyone would want to be in his shoes.


    You are obviously unaware of the fact that he is a father then?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #41 - June 26, 2010, 06:17 AM

    you are totally right. but how would our modern day rapist be doing something immoral but ghengis khan wasnt. I'm not saying our modern day rapist's strategy would be successful per se but we cant call him immoral


    If the people at the time thought it was moral then it was moral by their standards. By our standards it is immoral. By our standards the actions of a lioness instantly fucking the murderer of her children is immoral.

    There is no absolute morality, that's the point.  If you live in my country rape is immoral.  If you lived with Genghis it may have been moral (may have been, I am no historian).  In the animal kingdom it is part of every day life.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #42 - June 26, 2010, 06:18 AM

    In lions this is exactly what you see, but in social groups the rest of the extended family help to raise the children.  You are trying to see ONE successful pattern when in fact there are many successful patterns and we see them all.


    No i agree that humans are allowed to use any and all methods of passing on their genes. It's just that people today will call one method "immoral" because it doesnt sit well with them.

    Quote
    You are obviously unaware of the fact that he is a father then?


    holy shit i didnt know that.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #43 - June 26, 2010, 06:20 AM

    If the people at the time thought it was moral then it was moral by their standards. By our standards it is immoral. By our standards the actions of a lioness instantly fucking the murderer of her children is immoral.

    There is no absolute morality, that's the point.  If you live in my country rape is immoral.  If you lived with Genghis it may have been moral (may have been, I am no historian).  In the animal kingdom it is part of every day life.


    this is an interesting point and it's not one that is shared by many here. i tend to side with what you are saying. but many people nowadays will try and put forth and ultimate morality even though they criticize religion for doing exactly that.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #44 - June 26, 2010, 06:26 AM

    No i agree that humans are allowed to use any and all methods of passing on their genes. It's just that people today will call one method "immoral" because it doesnt sit well with them.


    There are things which are socially acceptable and things which are unacceptable.  It's not black and white, it's a sliding scale, and different people will place different acts at different places on that scale - even in different orders.

    You could look at morality as being group consensus.  Most people agree that murdering babies is wrong, and will agree that it should be on the extreme end of the scale.  People will agree/disagree as to whether or not homosexuality is moral or immoral; it is therefore neither moral or immoral because their is no majority agreement on the matter.

    Some behaviours are biologically driven and some learned socially (circumcision).  These are the origins of our morality, and that is how morality evolved and continues to evolve.

    this is an interesting point and it's not one that is shared by many here. i tend to side with what you are saying. but many people nowadays will try and put forth and ultimate morality even though they criticize religion for doing exactly that.


    And this is what religionists use an an argument for belief in God.  Without God there is no absolute morality and we can do whatever we want.  The truth is that there is no absolutely morality, we already do do whatever we want. What I particularly like about this is that we choose to make rape immoral.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #45 - June 26, 2010, 06:28 AM

    It would be dangerous for genetically inferior people (or weak) people. It all breaks down to survival of the fittest and ghengis khan was the fittest.

    This is the most retarded argument ever, and it doesn't show that you are thinking at all.

    #1 Take a sample of random 100 men, most of them will be equal to each other in terms of physical strength. The best fighter of them who will have practised fighting the most, and its not a trait that can be passed on to their offspring - its not a genetic trait. How good of a fighter the offspring is will depend on how much he practises his skill.

    #2 Survival of the fittest does not mean that the most physically powerful will survive. Cockroaches are one of the oldest species of the world, yet they can be killed by a simple squish of the foot. The reason they've survived so much is not because they're so powerful, but because they have certain mutations that let them breed like crazy.

    #3 In case of humans, the one trait that's the most important is intellectual capacity. The biggest threat humanity faces, is not the threat of predators, in which case physical strength would be most important. Its external threats like a nuclear war, an asteroid colliding with earth, or the sun going cold, etc. In these cases, only if enough smart humans work on finding a scientific solution to these problems will humanity survive. Hence, intelligence is the most important trait for humans, not physical strength. Gorillas are a lot stronger than humans but because of our intellect we can easily overcome them.

    #4 If massive war breaks out, many, many, intelligent people will be killed. Also, even physically strong people can be surrounded and killed. Hence, this will wipe out a lot of good, intelligent genes, and replace them with the dumb genes of the idiot who goes around on a mass rape spree.

    #5 Not sure if you saw this in my last message so I'll quote it again

    Quote
    Edit: Plus, years or decades wasted in violence = time that could have helped do research that helps human species as a whole survive when an epedemic like bird flu or swine flu or something even worse breaks out.


    Yea just like the nazis. but except they tried to control it by eliminating what they believed to be genetically inferior people like jews and gypsies ect...what they did makes perfect sense from an evolutionary standpoint (imo)

    No it doesn't, because both Nazis Gypsies and Jews have a lot of intelligent and smart people. There is no group of humans on earth which is inferior than any other group of humans as a whole.

    but ghengis khan didn't endanger his tribe...hr built a huge empire all carrying his genes and passing them on to future generations until today.

    Yea, and as a result Mangolia is still one of the most backward places in the world. They spent decades fighting while the rest of the world was progressing in science and developing other inventions that have helped them now dominate the world. Right now Mangolia means fuck all. If there's ever an epedimec they will be amongst the first people to die because of their poor technology, because they wasted decades in war.

    I would for sure. (especially from an evolutionary standpoint)

    If Joe has only 2 children and he is driving them to school and crashes they car and they all die. Thats the end of Joe's genes for all eternity. he is wiped out of time. A genetic failure.

    But because you weren't stupid enough to go on a mass rape spree, your brothers, sisters, and other family will still go on to live, hence your closest genes will still live on. Whereas if you do some stupid shit which starts a massive war/riot in your city, and you and all your kids die, then even your family can be killed, even more genetic failure.

    By the way, why do you care if your genes live on or not. If you die, what difference does it make to you? Evolution is NOT a philosophy that we should try to live on in our daily lives, its simply a scientific observation of how life goes on in the animal kingdom. We aren't animals, and we shouldn't try to be animals, or we will slide backwards and all the progress we have made will eventually be lost and we will end up as primates living in forests once again. That is BACKWARDS evolution.

    interesting. but im saying humans are allowed to do any reproductive means they want. its all good.

    No its not.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #46 - June 26, 2010, 06:32 AM

    We aren't animals, and we shouldn't try to be animals


    That's exactly what we are and evolution proves it, we are just more intelligent and more socially advanced.

    That is BACKWARDS evolution.


    There is no such thing as backwards evolution, evolution only goes in one direction.  It's impossible for an animal to "devolve".

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #47 - June 26, 2010, 06:34 AM

    There are things which are socially acceptable and things which are unacceptable.  It's not black and white, it's a sliding scale, and different people will place different acts at different places on that scale - even in different orders.


    this is correct. so considering what muhammad did with ayesha from a standpoint of evolution and taking in his culture and societal norms was what he did with ayesha immoral?

    Quote
    You could look at morality as being group consensus.  Most people agree that murdering babies is wrong, and will agree that it should be on the extreme end of the scale.  People will agree/disagree as to whether or not homosexuality is moral or immoral; it is therefore neither moral or immoral because their is no majority agreement on the matter.


    interesting point.

    Quote
    And this is what religionists use an an argument for belief in God.  Without God there is no absolute morality and we can do whatever we want.  The truth is that there is no absolutely morality, we already do do whatever we want. What I particularly like about this is that we choose to make rape immoral.


    This is a great point. But I only think you could make rape illegal but not immoral

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #48 - June 26, 2010, 06:43 AM

    That's exactly what we are and evolution proves it, we are just more intelligent and more socially advanced.

    Yep, but we shouldn't try to live like animals who don't have the mental capabilities and empathy we have.

    There is no such thing as backwards evolution, evolution only goes in one direction.  It's impossible for an animal to "devolve".

    I wasn't talking in a biological sense, rather in a social sense. If we went from building skyscrapers to living in huts in forests, that's social de-evolution.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #49 - June 26, 2010, 06:44 AM

    this is correct. so considering what muhammad did with ayesha from a standpoint of evolution and taking in his culture and societal norms was what he did with ayesha immoral?


    Eating animals in 1000 years time might be immoral, but most people find it perfectly acceptable today.

    By my standards of morality 1400 years later in the UK it was disgusting.  By their standards it was possibly completely normal but I'd have to be a historian to know the answer to that.

    What's important on that subject is the following.
    1: A medical study in he US showed that girls under the age of 14 are twice as likely to experience a miscarriage than someone 10 years older.
    2: God made that happen.
    3: God everyone that Muhammad is a perfect example for all mankind forever.
    4: God told Muhammad in his dreams to fuck a child, which he did 3 years later when she was 9.

    Either there's something false in those statements, or God loves dead babies.

    This is a great point. But I only think you could make rape illegal but not immoral


    Rape by majority consensus is immoral, due to our social and biological evolution.  For tortoises it is the standard method of reproduction.

    To correct your statement "It is only illegal because it is considered immoral" - which is why walking the streets nude is illegal despite the fact that these days it would increase reproduction Smiley

    PS: Morality can change pretty quickly.  During WWII it was acceptable to victimise Jews.  Not everyone agreed, but if the majority did then for them it could have been considered moral for them at the time - incorrectly justified by their belief that it would improve the survival chances of their own children.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #50 - June 26, 2010, 06:52 AM

    Rape is not good for human societies as a whole. In order to use rape as a reproductive strategy, we would lose the empathy and the social structures that have made humans as strong as they are. We would lose a major evolutionary advantage if we lost that empathy and the social structures/bonds between humans.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #51 - June 26, 2010, 06:56 AM

    Rape is not good for human societies as a whole. In order to use rape as a reproductive strategy, we would lose the empathy and the social structures that have made humans as strong as they are. We would lose a major evolutionary advantage if we lost that empathy and the social structures/bonds between humans.


    Indeed it would damage society to a point which would be detrimental to its chances of survival.  If however our societies collapsed as a result of a nuclear war etc this collapse might be so severe that it's possible we'd see rape on a regular basis, along with murder, infanticide, etc.  After a few generations each of these might all appear to be perfectly normal.

    I certainly prefer things the way they are!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #52 - June 26, 2010, 06:56 AM

    This is the most retarded argument ever, and it doesn't show that you are thinking at all.

    #1 Take a sample of random 100 men, most of them will be equal to each other in terms of physical strength. The best fighter of them who will have practised fighting the most, and its not a trait that can be passed on to their offspring - its not a genetic trait. How good of a fighter the offspring is will depend on how much he practises his skill.


    you seem to be ignoring the fact that height and strength is a desirable genetic trait in males.

    Are you trying to say height isn't a desirable trait?

    Do you think women take height into consideration when choosing a mate?

    Quote
    #2 Survival of the fittest does not mean that the most physically powerful will survive. Cockroaches are one of the oldest species of the world, yet they can be killed by a simple squish of the foot. The reason they've survived so much is not because they're so powerful, but because they have certain mutations that let them breed like crazy.


    i think survial of the fittest is defined by competition with ones own species and only the "fittest" genes survive.

    am i wrong?

    Quote
    #3 In case of humans, the one trait that's the most important is intellectual capacity. The biggest threat humanity faces, is not the threat of predators, in which case physical strength would be most important. Its external threats like a nuclear war, an asteroid colliding with earth, or the sun going cold, etc. In these cases, only if enough smart humans work on finding a scientific solution to these problems will humanity survive. Hence, intelligence is the most important trait for humans, not physical strength. Gorillas are a lot stronger than humans but because of our intellect we can easily overcome them.


    but these are all recent occurences. there is no way that they will change millions of years of evolution. we have evolved certain desirable traits and those will not change any time soon.

    Quote
    #4 If massive war breaks out, many, many, intelligent people will be killed. Also, even physically strong people can be surrounded and killed. Hence, this will wipe out a lot of good, intelligent genes, and replace them with the dumb genes of the idiot who goes around on a mass rape spree.


    but you seem to be calling ghengis khan an idiot even though his reproductive strategy was one of the most successful in history. he literally imprinted his genes onto mankind.

    Quote
    #5 Not sure if you saw this in my last message so I'll quote it again
    No it doesn't, because both Nazis Gypsies and Jews have a lot of intelligent and smart people. There is no group of humans on earth which is inferior than any other group of humans as a whole.


    the nazis would disagree with that. I think it comes down to "might equals right" if they nazis were mighty enough they would have wiped out the jews gypsies ect... and created the aryan super-race. Thereby ensuring the reproductive success of "aryan" genes. From an evolutionary standpoint there was nothing wrong with what the nazis did.

    Quote
    Yea, and as a result Mangolia is still one of the most backward places in the world. They spent decades fighting while the rest of the world was progressing in science and developing other inventions that have helped them now dominate the world. Right now Mangolia means fuck all. If there's ever an epedimec they will be amongst the first people to die because of their poor technology, because they wasted decades in war.


    Ancient egyptwas once the most advanced civilization on earth. Where are they now? Does this mean that the ancient egyptians were doing it wrong?

    Ghenis Khan pretty much conquered most of the world. Civilizations rise and fall man we cant really discount what he did by where mongolia is at today.

    Quote
    But because you weren't stupid enough to go on a mass rape spree, your brothers, sisters, and other family will still go on to live, hence your closest genes will still live on. Whereas if you do some stupid shit which starts a massive war/riot in your city, and you and all your kids die, then even your family can be killed, even more genetic failure.


    You are making a whole bunch of hypothetical assumptions. but even is the strategy isn't successful according to your scenario it doesnt make it immoral.

    Quote
    By the way, why do you care if your genes live on or not. If you die, what difference does it make to you?


    Passing our genes on is hardwired into our brains from millions of years of evolution. if our ancestors said "what difference does it make to you" we wouldnt exist.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #53 - June 26, 2010, 06:59 AM

    Rape is not good for human societies as a whole. In order to use rape as a reproductive strategy, we would lose the empathy and the social structures that have made humans as strong as they are. We would lose a major evolutionary advantage if we lost that empathy and the social structures/bonds between humans.


    you have that social structure but within your own tribe. Ghengis khan didnt rape his own tribe he conquered others and raped their women.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #54 - June 26, 2010, 07:02 AM

    you seem to be ignoring the fact that height and strength is a desirable genetic trait in males.

    Are you trying to say height isn't a desirable trait?

    Do you think women take height into consideration when choosing a mate?


    It's sexual selection.  Most women like taller men, but most men like to shorter women women (shorter than them).  The children are a bi-product of the DNA of both parents so have varying height, the shorter children neither die or find themselves unable to reproduce.



    i think survial of the fittest is defined by competition with ones own species and only the "fittest" genes survive.

    am i wrong?


    Yes.  Firstly it's organisms which do the surviving, in doing so they may pass on genes which were crap (like genetic diseases).  Secondly it's easier to understand if you say "Least suitable organisms die".


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #55 - June 26, 2010, 07:14 AM

    Eating animals in 1000 years time might be immoral, but most people find it perfectly acceptable today.

    By my standards of morality 1400 years later in the UK it was disgusting.


    Why? if we are all animals reproducing with a sexually mature animal should not be immoral.

    If a male dog had sex with a female dog while she was "in heat" this wouldnt be immoral. Even if some study showed that the age of the dog would lead to a miscarriage. This would be a flaw in evolution and would not render something immoral

    (no pedo haha)

    Quote
     By their standards it was possibly completely normal but I'd have to be a historian to know the answer to that.


    It was normal by their standards and child marriage is still practiced today in places like yemen. The ememies of Muhammad would have used anything they could to discredit him. But they never mention this issue.

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    Rape by majority consensus is immoral, due to our social and biological evolution.  For tortoises it is the standard method of reproduction.


    dolphins pull off gang rapes. At one point the majority consensus was that homosexuality was immoral and a mental disorder.

    Quote
    To correct your statement "It is only illegal because it is considered immoral" - which is why walking the streets nude is illegal despite the fact that these days it would increase reproduction Smiley


    i think it is illegal as a remnant of religious law. pretty much all laws of man are losely based on the 10 commandments.

    Quote
    PS: Morality can change pretty quickly.  During WWII it was acceptable to victimise Jews.  Not everyone agreed, but if the majority did then for them it could have been considered moral for them at the time - incorrectly justified by their belief that it would improve the survival chances of their own children.


    I tend to agree.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #56 - June 26, 2010, 07:21 AM

    It's sexual selection.  Most women like taller men, but most men like to shorter women women (shorter than them).  The children are a bi-product of the DNA of both parents so have varying height, the shorter children neither die or find themselves unable to reproduce.


    Yea thats what I was saying. The next question I was gonna ask is why did heigh become a desirable trait in males?


    Quote
    Yes.  Firstly it's organisms which do the surviving, in doing so they may pass on genes which were crap (like genetic diseases).  Secondly it's easier to understand if you say "Least suitable organisms die".


    ok. but humans and other mammals still compete with their own species for the priviledge of being able to pass on their genes. And height/size (atleast in humans) is a large part of this and that is why it's a desirable trait no?

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #57 - June 26, 2010, 07:32 AM

    Maybe coz bigger males mean they look and probably are stronger than a shorter one and could protect the female and her offspring? Huh?

  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #58 - June 26, 2010, 07:36 AM

    you seem to be ignoring the fact that height and strength is a desirable genetic trait in males.

    Are you trying to say height isn't a desirable trait?

    So what makes you think that in a random war only the tallest people will survive? Only the people best at hiding / people from particular tribes will survive, who will come in a variety of shapes and sizes. It can even be determined by pure luck.

    Secondly, in modern warfare strength and height offer very little advantage, having more numbers to your side and better technology is what determines success.

    Quote
    i think survial of the fittest is defined by competition with ones own species and only the "fittest" genes survive.  am i wrong?

    Actually most genes survive, only the weakest die out, like Rationalizer said. Sometimes there is a rare catastrophe in which only the 'fittest' genes survive. E.g in time of dinosaurs, an asteroid/meteor hit the earth, killed most of the species, but the smallest species of that time i.e mammals were the ones that were the most adapted to that environment, and hence they were the ones who lived on.

    If there's a catostrophic event that hits the earth, survival of fittest in terms of humans will mean only the most technologically advanced would survive. Hence, intelligence is the most important trait for human survival, not physical strength.

    Quote
    but you seem to be calling ghengis khan an idiot even though his reproductive strategy was one of the most successful in history. he literally imprinted his genes onto mankind.

    Yea but his part of the world is now one of the most backward. The war he created destroyed a lot of his own countrymen and all the years wasted in wars because of his actions.

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    the nazis would disagree with that. I think it comes down to "might equals right" if they nazis were mighty enough they would have wiped out the jews gypsies ect... and created the aryan super-race. Thereby ensuring the reproductive success of "aryan" genes. From an evolutionary standpoint there was nothing wrong with what the nazis did.

    Of course there was, because if you take a random sample of nazis and random sample of gypsies, there will be a few weak people and a few strong people, a few intelligent and a few dumb people in both groups. Like I said, no human ethnicity based group is inferior to another group as a whole.

    Quote
    Ancient egyptwas once the most advanced civilization on earth. Where are they now? Does this mean that the ancient egyptians were doing it wrong?


    They were never one of the most advanced. Where are you getting your stats from? Ancient greeks and romans were advanced, then they got into religion, hence wars, hence less scientific progress. In both cases the point is that war retards human progress.

    Quote
    Ghenis Khan pretty much conquered most of the world. Civilizations rise and fall man we cant really discount what he did by where mongolia is at today.

    Of course we can, and I just did.

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    Passing our genes on is hardwired into our brains from millions of years of evolution. if our ancestors said "what difference does it make to you" we wouldnt exist.


    But they weren't stupid enough to go on a rape spree to ensure their genes are spread. Many of them had sex for the pleasure of it.
  • Re: Evolution and Morality
     Reply #59 - June 26, 2010, 07:37 AM

    you have that social structure but within your own tribe. Ghengis khan didnt rape his own tribe he conquered others and raped their women.

    And see what all that war did to Mangolia.
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