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 Topic: The Quest for Truth: Balance.

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  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #120 - July 23, 2010, 01:57 PM
    I don't think we could not have existed in the universe immediately after the big bang space was too hot, they reckon the average temperature of space was about 30000C after the bang.

    also I'm not entirely convinced that it was just one big bang I think it plausible that there were two or more big bangs and the other ones gave rise to different types of matter such as dark matter.

    It seems to me that this universe is the dumping in ground for the stable matter that exists after big bang occurances
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #121 - July 23, 2010, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: OAK on July 23, 2010, 01:57 PM
    I don't think we could not have existed in the universe immediately after the big bang space was too hot, they reckon the average temperature of space was about 30000C after the bang.


    That's because you are assuming there was nothing there at the beginning, whereas in line with what Sam Harris was saying there may have been something there to observe it but it's now just so far away we cannot see it.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #122 - July 23, 2010, 02:09 PM
    excuse me I thought you meant that humans could have been luckier and lived before or immediatey after the bigbang.

    anyway the argument that "If God exists he might be unknowable" sounds suspiciously like "If my Auntie had balls she'd be my uncle" to me.
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #123 - July 23, 2010, 02:11 PM
    no, I don't think there was nothing before the bigbang, I think of it as a change in density
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #124 - July 23, 2010, 02:12 PM
    Quote from: OAK on July 23, 2010, 02:09 PM
    excuse me I thought you meant that humans could have been luckier and lived before or immediatey after the bigbang.

    anyway the argument that "If God exists he might be unknowable" sounds suspiciously like "If my Auntie had balls she'd be my uncle" to me.


    I meant if we (the intelligent species currently discussing) had been at our level much earlier then we may have been able to witness it - I didn't think I'd have to stipulate that we'd be living elsewhere Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #125 - July 23, 2010, 02:30 PM
    I know, we have such terrible lives, how can the universe be so cruel. ya'd think she'd just pull down her knickers and let us have at it.
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #126 - July 23, 2010, 02:50 PM
    @OAK

    Quote
    It seems a little contradictory to me that anyone can rely on a "fine tuning" argument and then turn around and say that what ever is outside our universe is not bound by the same laws as this universe.


    I think the argument has consistently been that it would be wrong to assume that anything outside our own universe is necessarily bound by the science that governs our universe

    Quote
    This word unknowable is giving me the shits, first off you can know something without understanding it, secondly there is no concept humans have encountered that they have failed to gain understanding of with time. This word unknowable seems silly in the light of this because we have not encountered some thing that is unknowable. I have only ever encountered the use of this word in relation to divinity and I would not be surprised if it was invented by religophiles as another way of “saying the mystery of god"


    The argument here is that at present we can not know about anything outside of our own universe since at present there is not even any potential to make observations outside of our own universe. Hence we can not make any rational scientific claims regarding things that may or may not exist outside our own universe. But who knows one day it might be possible - until that day all we can do is dream and speculate.


    btw there's no need to be scared about things that might be unknowable.


    If it's ok, I'd also be quite interested to get your views on the following:

    Quote
    In addition OAK, I'm not sure if I misunderstood you (please correct me if I'm wrong) but are you saying that you think there is evidence that any sort of Creator God doesn't exist (I doubt you are saying this) or are you saying that one day it might be possible that we will find scientific evidence that a Creator God does not exist? What scientific eveidence makes you think that a God(s) does not exist or could you at least speculate or give us some sort of vague idea of what type of scientific evidence we might one day come across that might lead us to the conclusion that there is no God?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #127 - July 23, 2010, 02:52 PM
    Quote from: OAK on July 23, 2010, 01:57 PM
    also I'm not entirely convinced that it was just one big bang I think it plausible that there were two or more big bangs and the other ones gave rise to different types of matter such as dark matter.


    Two big bangs? - is there at least some sort of scientific rationale behind this speculation
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #128 - July 23, 2010, 02:55 PM
    Quote from: OAK on July 23, 2010, 02:11 PM
    no, I don't think there was nothing before the bigbang, I think of it as a change in density


    What would be the scientific mechanism behind this?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #129 - July 23, 2010, 03:00 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on July 23, 2010, 02:55 PM
    What would be the scientific mechanism behind this?


    A currently unknown phenomena that is currently labelled "Dark energy" until such a time as we can identify it.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #130 - July 23, 2010, 03:05 PM
    I am aware of dark energy, i'm just curious as to how exactly it would trigger the change in density you are suggesting might have given birth to the universe as we know it today i.e. what is the scientific process in which dark energy may have contributed to triggering the inflation - in scientifc terms. although dark energy might contribute to the exapnasion of our universe I wasn't aware it has anything to to do with the ''bang'' i.e. the mechanism that triggered the initial burst of inflation
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #131 - July 23, 2010, 03:08 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on July 23, 2010, 03:05 PM
    I am aware of dark energy, i'm just curious as to how exactly it would trigger the change in density you are suggesting might have given birth to the universe as we know it today i.e. what is the scientific process in which dark energy may have contributed to triggering the inflation - in scientifc terms.


    I believe we are possibly discussing an unknown.  Therefore.....Vishnu did it with his lotus flower Wink
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #132 - July 23, 2010, 03:09 PM
    it's possible  Afro
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #133 - July 23, 2010, 03:24 PM
    to change the density of any material apply heat.
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #134 - July 23, 2010, 03:29 PM
    lol.
    oh you were being serious??
    so heat was applied and that's what caused the initial burst of inflation?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #135 - July 23, 2010, 03:45 PM
    I am not saying that there is evidence for no god, its impossible to prove this negative at the moment, I am saying that of all the evidence we have none, not one bit of information is considered evidence for god.

    If you look at early maps of the world they are very inaccurate down through the ages the maps got better and today we have photgraphs of every pebbel on the surface of the planet. we can also build 3D maps of the terrain below the surface of the oceans and indeed under the surface of the earth itself. to me its not such a big leap that one day we will be able to map the universe in 19D

    and I don't think that that should be a big leap for a theist whose god once resided in the sky, then space and now outside the universe similarly for those who believe in hell.

    "What scientific eveidence makes you think that a God(s) does not exist?" the short answer, All of it.

    I have considered the lack of any evidence for any Gods (pick a god any god) and I reject the beliefs of those who conjure it/them up,  also I have considered all the positive evidence for a natural universe and I cannot find any evidence that contradicts it.
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #136 - July 23, 2010, 03:52 PM
    don't take that tone with me you ignorant sack of shit.

    its not my job to teach you basic science pick up a book other than a holy one.

    you asked for a method of changing density, when you apply heat to water it changes from a liquid to a gas this is a change in density

    ASS
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #137 - July 23, 2010, 03:59 PM
    the argument seems to be a big bag of shit really

    nothing could exist without a finely tuned universe, but god can exist in a universe with no rules at all, yea right
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #138 - July 23, 2010, 04:01 PM
    "outside our universe is unknowable" what ever the fuck unknowable is.

    so if a being came here from outside our universe he'd be wasting his time because we could never understand him
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #139 - July 23, 2010, 04:04 PM
    I'm not scared of "unknowable" I have never failed to understand any concept that has been fully explained to me.

    the word un knowable is an excuse for ignorance
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #140 - July 23, 2010, 04:04 PM
    sorry if you got offended dude but I apologise for sounding like a jerk.
    but you said:

    Quote
    no, I don't think there was nothing before the bigbang, I think of it as a change in density


    then I said:

    Quote
    What would be the scientific mechanism behind this?


    but then you said:

    Quote
    to change the density of any material apply heat


    therefore obviously it would be natural to assume that you were suggesting that applying heat to some pre-existing material was involved in the big-bang and the birth of our universe and therefore i said:

    Quote
    so heat was applied and that's what caused the initial burst of inflation?


    This notion, by the way, is totally ridiculous and I just wasn't really aware if you were serious when you suggested that

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #141 - July 23, 2010, 04:05 PM
    Quote from: OAK on July 23, 2010, 04:04 PM
    the word un knowable is an excuse for ignorance


    I see
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #142 - July 23, 2010, 04:10 PM
    Quote from: OAK on July 23, 2010, 04:01 PM
    "outside our universe is unknowable" what ever the fuck unknowable is.

    so if a being came here from outside our universe he'd be wasting his time because we could never understand him


    unknowable in the sense that we can not at present make any scientific observations or measurements outside of our own universe - we don't even know if our science applies outside this universe. however of course if a being from another universe somehow was able to come to this universe we could make obseravtions/scientific investigation regarding he/she/it.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #143 - July 23, 2010, 04:12 PM
    why is it ridiculous to say heat causes inflation/change in density?

    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #144 - July 23, 2010, 04:16 PM
    it's not but were you not implying that it might have something to do with the inflation/expansion associated with the big bang i.e. by applying heat it caused the inflation of the big bang?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #145 - July 23, 2010, 04:25 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on July 23, 2010, 04:10 PM
    unknowable in the sense that we can not at present make any scientific observations or measurements outside of our own universe - we don't even know if our science applies outside this universe. however of course if a being from another universe somehow was able to come to this universe we could make obseravtions/scientific investigation regarding he/she/it.


    how about we stick to what words actually mean rather than attaching meanings that suit our arguments, words like untestable, unproveable, falsify better describe the conditions you are proposing.

    our science is born out of the allegedly "finally tuned universe" the only reason it would not work in another universe is if the mathematical constants were different. The finely tuned universe arguments states that nothing could exist if the constants were different, so if the the constants have to be the same for anything to exist then our science works.

    I see, so if an "unknowable" being came here we could see it we just couldn't understand it.
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #146 - July 23, 2010, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on July 23, 2010, 03:09 PM
    it's possible  Afro


    Sure it is, but is it probable - I think not.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #147 - July 23, 2010, 04:34 PM
    you asked for a scientific mechanisim that could cause changes in density,

    Heat is one mechanisim that regularly causes changes in density in this "finely tuned universe" there are other methods, osmotic pressure cause changes in density water will change in to gas without any heat at all.

    In fact water will change from a solid directly to a gas without ever becoming a liquid, so does at least one element I think its mercury.  
    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #148 - July 23, 2010, 04:35 PM
    Let me point out why atheism is the correct stance to take.

    Q: What causes lightening?
    A: Zeus
    WRONG!

    Q: What causes thunder?
    A: Thor
    WRONG

    Q: What causes the planets to move?
    A: God pushes them!
    WRONG

    Q: Why do people / animals etc look the way they do?
    A: God made us this way
    WRONG

    Every unknown in mankind's knowledge in the past has been attributed to some god or other.  At this very moment creator god believers are desperately trying to de-educate children in the USA so that they won't accept the FACT of evolution because it outright disproves the bible (and the Quran too.)  The creation of the universe is currently the theists last stance, it is the last known unknown regarding the origin of mankind and the universe and so they cling to it for the dear life of their slowly dying unfounded beliefs.

    So, not only is it unwise to believe in a mere hypothesis without testing it for its accuracy, history shows that a god hypothesis is increasingly a bad choice.

    Therefore history has shown us again and again that atheism (acceptance that there is no evidence for god) is the logical default position to take until such a time as the evidence changes!
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #149 - July 23, 2010, 04:41 PM
    Quote from: OAK on July 23, 2010, 04:25 PM
    our science is born out of the allegedly "finally tuned universe" the only reason it would not work in another universe is if the mathematical constants were different. The finely tuned universe arguments states that nothing could exist if the constants were different, so if the the constants have to be the same for anything to exist then our science works.


    No - there could exist things that do not require to be find tuned and might rely on science that we can not even grasp. Although the scientific laws in our universe suggest that our universe is indeed fine tuned it doesn't mean that nothing else can exist if it isn't fine tuned according to our science. You are making the assumption that the same science that applies to our universe also applies outside our universe as well. If the science is completely different then it might not be required to be fine-tuned at all. In addition it is possibe for other types of universes with different science/mathematical constants to exist - our configuration is one of a handful (out of the bazillion possible configurations) that can give rise to planets, stars etc.

    Quote
    I see, so if an "unknowable" being came here we could see it we just couldn't understand it.


    I think we are confusing each other. Anything in our universe (no matter where it came from) can fully understood providing we are smart enough. We just can't make any observations outside our own universe.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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