Moneylessness

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #30 - July 22, 2010, 10:39 PM

Actually forget me. What about all the psychos out there who are impulsively greedy and violent? Believe it or not for some of us greed and violence are natural, not learnt.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #31 - July 22, 2010, 10:40 PM

I want to tell you to be less harsh about yourself but then I get the feeling that you enjoy playing the villian character, so please carry on.

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #32 - July 22, 2010, 10:41 PM

See above post. Forget about me - yeah I play the douche on-line. I'm actually a good person.

What about all the *real* bad guys?

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #33 - July 22, 2010, 10:41 PM

Quote from: Iblis on July 22, 2010, 10:39 PM
Actually forget me. What about all the psychos out there who are impulsively greedy and violent? Believe it or not for some of us greed and violence are natural, not learnt.

This is a fair point, but do you think it is impossible for such people to forgo greed or just highly improbable?
And besides, many criminals that kill and cheat for more money only do it because more money is available, what if we told them that they can have all the possessions in the world but to share, will they remain as violent?

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #34 - July 22, 2010, 10:45 PM

I'm no psychologist okay, but just from experience don't you always remember that one friend who was always cruel, sadistic, greedy and manipulative since you were like 5? I can't imagine people of that profile ever changing enough to adapt to such a world.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #35 - July 22, 2010, 10:46 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 22, 2010, 10:41 PM
And besides, many criminals that kill and cheat for more money only do it because more money is available, what if we told them that they can have all the possessions in the world but to share, will they remain as violent?

But for some people it's beyond wanting things. Many criminal bosses actually live very unmaterialistic and frugal lives.. lol just like the Prophet Muhammad. Some people want power, they want to control others and be above others. Its that neanderthal impulse to dominate. Its not about what you want or have for some.. its about having more than others. How do you deal with that?

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #36 - July 22, 2010, 10:56 PM

It is true that there are many people who could not fit into such a society and of course this is all hypothetical, such a world is far far off. however, I do believe it is possible to create such a society simply because when the very concept of power and greed are deleted from the average experience of a person, they cannot affect society.

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #37 - July 22, 2010, 11:53 PM

z10... this has in fact been tried here in the states (during th 60s)
in the guise of communes. Also israeli "kibutz" (spelling?)
I dont know what happened in israel, but the communes here
in the states fell apart VERY fast. oh, sure, if you go WAAAAAY
out in the boonies somewhere, there may be a few remnants.

IF these utopian societies HAD worked and succeeded,
would the REST of the society joined in? I doubt it

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #38 - July 23, 2010, 02:12 AM

The theory of no money can work in small-scale communities, though it doesn't seem to be as viable (currently) on a global scale.
Also, what "human nature" is never set in stone, it is always changing and e(or de)volving. Perhaps one day human nature will be as such to render money obsolete.
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #39 - July 23, 2010, 02:17 AM

Quote from: z10 on July 22, 2010, 07:10 PM
Is it possible to have a money-less society?
A place that doesn't rely on primitive concepts of reward and punishment to get us to live happily and peacefully with each other? A place that has no need for ridiculous concepts like "private property"?

No.. Why is the concept of private property ridiculous to you?

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #40 - July 23, 2010, 02:18 AM

zoomi..i have no doubt in the distant future, currency as we know it will be
obsolete, but i believe it will take a catostrophic event (i.e. an astroid hitting
us,or nuclear war) to bring us to that point. Im not a fatalist, but do think
thats the only way it can happen.

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #41 - July 23, 2010, 02:19 AM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 22, 2010, 07:21 PM
z10... it was agriculture that started all of this, once hunter/gatherers started
to settle and domesticate crops and livestock. EVERY culture flourished in leaps
and bounds because of agriculture, but also, it was the CAUSE for every
civilization that collapsed.

Then throw in the mix -- trade. One area was abundant in one(or several
things), and another area was the reverse of those same things, hence
the evolution of trade for necessity, as well as exoctic goods were
was born.

Then came the exploitation of recourses, and a constant migration to
look for more. A great example of this was the anasazi civilization in north america
and the aztecs in south america.

It is theorized that the mammoths (and other mega-flora and fauna)
went extinct shortly after man showed up on
their trail, from the berring straight into north america. It was NOT
soley climate change, as some have theorized.

my point is, there's no going back, really, and as long as one
region is in need of something, and another region can supply it,
there will always be some sort of currency or exchange to meet
the needs.

Not only that, there is much evidence to suggest that trade and bartering gave rise to development and progress.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #42 - July 23, 2010, 02:21 AM

yes ras, and again i say, it all started with agriculture.

Cain and Abel were a fine example of that lol

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #43 - July 23, 2010, 02:23 AM

Quote from: z10 on July 22, 2010, 10:17 PM
But all your wants will be satisfied Iblis, you will own everything collectively with everyone else. You will get absolutely everything you want, and so will everyone else. The only thing asked of you is not to hoard anything for yourself exclusively.

And how is that supposed to happen? How are you going to have the sustainability? It absolutely makes no sense at all. You are talking about some form of utopia that cannot be achieved. The fact that our resources are finite will ensure that it will never happen. And it goes against human nature. We are not meant to share, we are meant to keep the best for ourselves because it increases our chances of survival. Perhaps sharing would have worked in very small tribes but not in large scale communities.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #44 - July 23, 2010, 02:25 AM

Quote from: z10 on July 22, 2010, 10:30 PM
Then you clearly don't want to share but you already said that above.
Yes, I am serious, there is nothing I own or could own that I wouldn't share happily with everyone.

Don't mean to be rude, but would you share your partner or loved one with anyone for example? Please don't think I'm being personal in any way..

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #45 - July 23, 2010, 02:26 AM

Quote from: ras111 on July 23, 2010, 02:19 AM
Not only that, there is much evidence to suggest that trade and bartering gave rise to development and progress.

Definitely spread knowledge and ideology. Lots of Philosophy was spread in this manner even.

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 23, 2010, 02:18 AM
zoomi..i have no doubt in the distant future, currency as we know it will be
obsolete, but i believe it will take a catostrophic event (i.e. an astroid hitting
us,or nuclear war) to bring us to that point. Im not a fatalist, but do think
thats the only way it can happen.

I think that would definitely be a much faster way, though I think it would very slowly happen if humanity lived, say, another 2000 (10,000? 20,000?) years. Though even a catastrophe might not do it -- might temporarily abolish currency, though I think humanity would revert initially back to to bartering, and then to currency again.
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #46 - July 23, 2010, 02:29 AM

Quote from: ras111 on July 23, 2010, 02:25 AM
Don't mean to be rude, but would you share your partner or loved one with anyone for example?

You'd think your partner would be worth more than material posessions
...(I hope)
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #47 - July 23, 2010, 02:34 AM

Quote from: z10 on July 22, 2010, 10:34 PM
Then it cannot work. Every single person in the world has to take the decision to live this way personally and maturely. If even one person rejects it then it is impssible to implement.

Which is why it is impossible to implement. Your theory is far too idealistic and there are billions of people on this planet.

Quote from: z10 on July 22, 2010, 10:34 PM
One common problem highlighted with this sharing method is that nothing gets done, but I contend that if I have absolutely all my wants satsified I will do even more for everyone else than before, I'll cook more meals for us to share, I'll help build houses, hopspitals and so on because I would want to share it with everyone, it would be for my own benefit.

Very often given our nature, once we have our wants satisfied then we don't bother with doing much else. And in a way your proposal is also in just. You are implying that everyone receives equally but that is not the case, some will get far more for doing less and others will simply be exploited. Given that resources are finite it is only just that they go to who merits them the most first.

Also take into account that simply working for no money makes one lose the initiative, the bigger the community the less one is likely to feel connected and the more likely it is them to lose the initiative to do the job well.. Your theories have been tried before, they do not work. They go against the way we are biologically.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #48 - July 23, 2010, 02:35 AM

Quote from: zoomi on July 23, 2010, 02:26 AM
definitely spread knowledge

Not only that, concepts like the 0 were developed because of trade..

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #49 - July 23, 2010, 02:37 AM

Quote from: zoomi on July 23, 2010, 02:29 AM
You'd think your partner would be worth more than material posessions
...(I hope)

My dear that's from where it begins.. the value you ascribe to something is relative. If you are not willing to share your partner because of the connection and everything, chances are that it could extend to other things up to a lesser extent. It's our nature.

P.S wasn't intending to be personal.. My apologies if you were offended.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #50 - July 23, 2010, 02:43 AM

Quote from: zoomi on July 23, 2010, 02:26 AM
might temporarily abolish currency, though I think humanity would revert initially back to to bartering, and then to currency again.

You have just summed up what happened in Russia in the last century.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #51 - July 23, 2010, 02:48 AM

Quote from: z10 on July 22, 2010, 10:41 PM
This is a fair point, but do you think it is impossible for such people to forgo greed or just highly improbable?
And besides, many criminals that kill and cheat for more money only do it because more money is available, what if we told them that they can have all the possessions in the world but to share, will they remain as violent?

It is rather absurd, they cheat and break the law to satisfy their own greed. In short, they don't think of other people and are even more egoistic than other human beings and you think that they are going to settle for sharing?

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #52 - July 23, 2010, 03:30 AM

Quote from: ras111 on July 23, 2010, 02:37 AM
My dear that's from where it begins.. the value you ascribe to something is relative. If you are not willing to share your partner because of the connection and everything, chances are that it could extend to other things up to a lesser extent. It's our nature.

P.S wasn't intending to be personal.. My apologies if you were offended.

I don't believe in monogamy other than a personal choice anyway, and if someone wanted to be shared, then let them be shared. I just don't think people and objects are equatable in this manner.

Not offended, don't worry.
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #53 - July 23, 2010, 03:32 AM

Quote from: ras111 on July 23, 2010, 02:43 AM
You have just summed up what happened in Russia in the last century.

I have a problem with people using the USSR as a point against moneyless systems. One ill-concieved, failed example is not even representative of communism, let alone the only option of moneyless systems.
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #54 - July 23, 2010, 03:43 AM

Quote from: zoomi on July 23, 2010, 03:32 AM
I have a problem with people using the USSR as a point against moneyless systems. One ill-concieved, failed example is not even representative of communism, let alone the only option of moneyless systems.

It was not the exact representative of Communism for the simple reason that Communism is too idealistic to be applied the way it is on paper. It is like having a pure Islamic state, the closer you try to get to the ideal the worse you will make it for the people and the more you will find that you need to make compromises. In my case even the thought of living under a socialist government makes me uneasy given my parent's experiences and what our country passed through.

Tell me then, what is representative of Communism in your opinion?

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #55 - July 23, 2010, 03:53 AM

I'm saying communism has only been applied in a handful of societies, either too large or too under-developed to work. We can't say that it won't work, I've made a few points already on the subject of human nature changing.
Also, socialism and communism are two different things. Scandanavia and Sweden seem to be working quite well.
I've seen small "communist" villages work well. As I mentioned before, it works better on a small-scale.
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #56 - July 23, 2010, 05:52 AM

Quote from: z10 on July 22, 2010, 10:00 PM
Being moneyless is incredibly easy - all that is required is one maxim to adopted by everybody:-

I will share everything in the world with everyone if everyone in the world shares it with me too.

So the question is not one of how such a world would work but rather do we have the maturity and confidence to partake in this spirit of sharing?

That only works if you have infinite resources.
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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #57 - July 23, 2010, 11:18 AM

Quote from: zoomi on July 23, 2010, 03:53 AM
I'm saying communism has only been applied in a handful of societies, either too large or too under-developed to work. We can't say that it won't work, I've made a few points already on the subject of human nature changing.
Also, socialism and communism are two different things. Scandanavia and Sweden seem to be working quite well.
I've seen small "communist" villages work well. As I mentioned before, it works better on a small-scale.

Well not that much, socialism is just a more realistic incorporation of the same principles and it still does not work in most cases. In Scandinavia it's because aspects of socialism are applied and because many scandinavian countries have small population and oil.. It makes a difference.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #58 - July 23, 2010, 11:25 AM

Quote from: zoomi on July 23, 2010, 03:30 AM
I don't believe in monogamy other than a personal choice anyway, and if someone wanted to be shared, then let them be shared. I just don't think people and objects are equatable in this manner.

Not offended, don't worry.

It's not so much a case of equating people with objects is it? One could argue that the body is a material object and that the personality or soul is what matters. Still you'll find that quite a lot of people who wouldn't like to share there partners, the vast majority I should think, both men and women. In the end much of the things that make us refuse to share partner are the same the things that make us refuse to share other things.. You don't have to think of your partner to be an object for it to be that way.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Moneylessness
Reply #59 - July 23, 2010, 12:08 PM

Quote from: zoomi on July 23, 2010, 03:53 AM
As I mentioned before, it works better on a small-scale.

Do you mean something like a kibbutz?

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