Ye cannae change the laws of physics

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- TheRationalizer
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Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
OP - September 01, 2010, 06:53 PM

http://www.economist.com/node/16930866

Quote from: Article
Why alpha takes on the precise value it has, so delicately fine-tuned for life, is a deep scientific mystery. A new piece of astrophysical research may, however, have uncovered a crucial piece of the puzzle. In a paper just submitted to Physical Review Letters, a team led by John Webb and Julian King from the University of New South Wales in Australia present evidence that the fine-structure constant may not actually be constant after all. Rather, it seems to vary from place to place within the universe.

I hope this gets some priority for corroboration. It's a real "fuck you, theist" if it's true

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Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
Reply #1 - September 01, 2010, 06:54 PM

it sure is.
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Reply #2 - September 02, 2010, 08:41 PM

if corroborated, it's not just a 'big fuck you to theists'. the concept of symmetry in physics would be overthrown - this would be a massive massive thing for theoretical physics as a whole. this would be the first time that law of physics would be found to be different at different locations of the universe, whereas physicsts have always found that they appear to be the same no matter where in the universe you look i.e. the universe displays an undelying symmetry. a lot of theoretical physicists base their thinking on this very concept of symmetry and other concepts of symmetry like this. if the finding in the article is corroborated it would spell doom for this intuitve way of thinking about the universe and indeed would tear down a central observation that symmetry underlies the laws of the universe. i personally would treat this preliminary finding with a little skepticism (and not just because i'm a theist ) as i'm sure most theoretical physicists are.

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Reply #3 - September 02, 2010, 09:05 PM

Big W.L.C. is not gonna like this.
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Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
Reply #4 - September 02, 2010, 09:16 PM

I dont understand how the laws can change from one universe to the next For me it'll change my concept of physics should it be true

However whether proven or not I fail to see how it debunks theist arguments, other than in fact strengthen them. If science can be rubbished like this, then the belief that their is a god (or Gods for each universe) fine tuning each universe becomes all the more plausible

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Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
Reply #5 - September 02, 2010, 09:22 PM

oh cmon, god is a rubbish hypothesis. its a gap in human knowledge people have labelled god.
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Reply #6 - September 02, 2010, 09:24 PM

Oh yeah, dont get me wrong - God is a manmade concept but some idea of some kind of creator has not been ruled out in my book. Thats why I'm agnostic.

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Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
Reply #7 - September 02, 2010, 09:27 PM

Quote from: IsLame on September 02, 2010, 09:16 PM
I dont understand how the laws can change from one universe to the next For me it'll change my concept of physics should it be true

the finding would mean the laws of physics are different at different locations of our universe (not one universe to the next) - it would radically change the way we think about physicis in general if it were true. i am very skeptical about the finding at the mo.

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Reply #8 - September 02, 2010, 09:27 PM

Quote from: IsLame on September 02, 2010, 09:24 PM
Oh yeah, dont get me wrong - God is a manmade concept but some idea of some kind of creator has not been ruled out in my book. Thats why I'm agnostic.

Would you cease to be agnostic if a theory that the universe is infinitely old became scientific consensus?

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Reply #9 - September 02, 2010, 09:28 PM

no

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Reply #10 - September 02, 2010, 09:29 PM

Quote from: s12345 on September 02, 2010, 09:22 PM
oh cmon, god is a rubbish hypothesis. its a gap in human knowledge people have labelled god.

i understand being skeptical but why is an intelligent designer of the universe a rubbish hypothesis? what hypotheses do you prefer?

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Reply #11 - September 02, 2010, 09:32 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 09:29 PM
i understand being skeptical but why is an intelligent designer of the universe a rubbish hypothesis? what hypotheses do you prefer?

Incidentally, are you an agnsotic theist with respect to the above "God" or the Abrahmic version of God?

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Reply #12 - September 02, 2010, 09:36 PM

all i guess, incuding aspects of hinduism, bhudism, judaism etc. i think they all potentially might contain truths.

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Reply #13 - September 02, 2010, 09:37 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 09:29 PM
i understand being skeptical but why is an intelligent designer of the universe a rubbish hypothesis? what hypotheses do you prefer?

Nooo, it's not a rubbish hypothesis at all. Anyone who rules out this hypothesis is closed minded. However, it is a HYPOTHESIS only. To believe it is true without evidence is as illogical as believing the hypothesis that the universe was created by two fairies and a hippo.

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Reply #14 - September 02, 2010, 09:41 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 09:36 PM
all i guess, incuding aspects of hinduism, bhudism, judaism etc. i think they all potentially might contain truths.

cmon dude. what're the odds that 7th and prior cosmology is not as bad as 7th century science. these books have not a shred of truth.
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Reply #15 - September 02, 2010, 09:42 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 09:36 PM
all i guess, incuding aspects of hinduism, bhudism, judaism etc. i think they all potentially might contain truths.

Which God(s) hypothesis do you currently believe is the most likely?

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Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
Reply #16 - September 02, 2010, 09:44 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 02, 2010, 09:37 PM
Nooo, it's not a rubbish hypothesis at all. Anyone who rules out this hypothesis is closed minded. However, it is a HYPOTHESIS only. To believe it is true without evidence is as illogical as believing the hypothesis that the universe was created by two fairies and a hippo.

whats the rigorous idea of intelligence in intelligent designer ?
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Reply #17 - September 02, 2010, 09:45 PM

Quote from: s12345 on September 02, 2010, 09:41 PM
cmon dude. what're the odds that 7th and prior cosmology is not as bad as 7th century science. these books have not a shred of truth.

these books were only meant for those particular times perhaps and therefore were describing things from a 7th century etc. perspective?

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Reply #18 - September 02, 2010, 09:48 PM

you were asking for that to be fair s12345

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Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
Reply #19 - September 02, 2010, 09:49 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 09:45 PM
these books were only meant for those particular times perhaps and therefore were describing things from a 7th century etc. perspective?

I once had a Presbyterian pastor tell me that exact same thing.

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Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
Reply #20 - September 02, 2010, 09:52 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 09:45 PM
these books were only meant for those particular times perhaps and therefore were describing things from a 7th century etc. perspective?

hmmmm? well, truth is only any good if it atleast holds over a few human centuries these books have different cosmologies / creation myths / eschatologies which are mutually incompatible.

these are story books.
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Reply #21 - September 02, 2010, 10:02 PM

s12345, please change your avatar to this:

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Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
Reply #22 - September 02, 2010, 10:04 PM

hahaha. why?
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Reply #23 - September 02, 2010, 10:06 PM

Cause you look like Elvis.

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Reply #24 - September 02, 2010, 10:08 PM

done.
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Reply #25 - September 02, 2010, 10:16 PM

Sweeeet!

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Reply #26 - September 02, 2010, 10:33 PM

You can't debunk a thiests' claim that the universe is created perfectly because it depends on a concept that isn't testable. God made everything perfectly even imperfections.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Reply #27 - September 02, 2010, 10:56 PM

when it comes to the laws of physical reality i.e. the laws of physics - it appears there are no imperfections (although there are things we do yet fully understand). while it could be argued that they only seem beautiful because humans define themselves what is beautiful, what is undeniable is that the laws are incredibly intelligent, ordered, coherent and sometimes mathematically complex (sometimes so complex that we not have complete mathematical formulations but only approximate equations i.e. as in string theory - although this theory is still very much a work in progress). What I like asking is where would these laws themselves have come from - can science itself explain where science came from or is their a supernatural explanation i.e. the laws of science were created by some outside agent. If science can explain it, then did these laws 'evolve' over some period of time (the mechanism for this would need to be something very radical) or did they all happen to pop into existence all at once?

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Reply #28 - September 02, 2010, 11:00 PM

why do suppose Physics Laws have to be "born"?

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Reply #29 - September 02, 2010, 11:06 PM

i didn't say they have to be born - but even if they had always existed, i'd still like to know how they came to be - i find it impossible to think that laws as intelligent and structured and mathematicaly complex as these 'just happened to exist'. their existence needs to be explained either scientifically or supernaturally.

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