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 Topic: Are vegetarians really ethical?

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  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #60 - September 29, 2010, 07:42 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 29, 2010, 07:22 PM
    Yeah-- he doesn't berate anyone, he just wants to put people out of work, bust unions, wreck families, criminalize more shit in a country with the world's highest incarceration rate, all in pursuit of his radical animal liberation agenda. So long as he doesn't berate people on this forum it's all peachy.


    Now that's what I call berating someone  Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #61 - September 29, 2010, 07:43 PM
    Billy-- is that avatar from "This is England"?
    fuck you
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #62 - September 29, 2010, 07:46 PM

    Yeah  Afro

    They just finished showing a four part TV sequel here on Channel 4, written and directed by Shane Meadows, set in 1986 - mindblowing stuff.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #63 - September 29, 2010, 07:48 PM
    Whoa! There's a sequel? That's nuts. So it's set 4 years after the original was set, huh? Wonder when I'll be able to get it/watch it here.
    fuck you
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #64 - September 29, 2010, 07:53 PM
    Q-man, can you get 4oD on youtube?

    http://www.youtube.com/show/thisisengland86
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #65 - September 29, 2010, 07:54 PM
    Nah, blocked. Thanks anyways.
    fuck you
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #66 - September 29, 2010, 07:55 PM
    You still should be able to dowload it Q from somewhere.

    btw is it worth watching?
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  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #67 - September 29, 2010, 08:02 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 29, 2010, 07:48 PM
    Whoa! There's a sequel? That's nuts. So it's set 4 years after the original was set, huh? Wonder when I'll be able to get it/watch it here.


    You should be able to get on here, read the synopsis and stuff

    http://www.channel4.com/explore/this-is-england-86/

    Its brilliant stuff, try and get a copy off torrents or whatever its called if you know how to work it. Will be out on DVD here soon anyway. Its really beautiful TV, as good as it gets. The whole gang has moved on and its really funny, sad, melancholy, tender and it gets very, very dark and diturbing too. But its a really beautiful and humane vision of life that Shane Meadows creates with his characters, and the acting is superlative.

    Apparently he's going to write another series set in the early 1990's in the middle of the ecstacy / rave culture back then.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #68 - September 29, 2010, 08:04 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 29, 2010, 07:55 PM
    You still should be able to dowload it Q from somewhere.

    btw is it worth watching?


    If you like the movie, yes, its essential. But there are some very disturbing scenes in episodes 3 and 4. But overall its a really great piece of work. You feel like you know and love the characters they are portrayed with so much sympathy and care.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #69 - September 29, 2010, 08:06 PM
    ^ Yeah, what Billy said.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #70 - September 29, 2010, 08:13 PM
    Quote from: billy on September 29, 2010, 08:04 PM
    If you like the movie, yes, its essential. But there are some very disturbing scenes in episodes 3 and 4. But overall its a really great piece of work. You feel like you know and love the characters they are portrayed with so much sympathy and care.

    didnt see the movie - you think I'll like it?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #71 - September 29, 2010, 08:14 PM
    It's about limeys doin limey shit-- you'll love it.
    fuck you
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #72 - September 29, 2010, 08:18 PM
    you should be a film reviewer
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  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #73 - September 29, 2010, 08:28 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 29, 2010, 08:13 PM
    didnt see the movie - you think I'll like it?


    Yeah. Its about skinhead culture and racism in the early 1980's. But its about more than that, its about friendship and love and stuff.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #74 - September 29, 2010, 08:30 PM
    i'll see if the missus wants to watch it later this eve..
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  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #75 - September 29, 2010, 08:57 PM
    Slippery slope -- is killing bacteria/bugs/cancerous cells evil too?
    What about plants, uprooting carrots and such?
    I believe we have a duty to our fellow humans to eat (at least) less meat, as the point was made above that producing beef  takes away farmland that could be used to produce sustenance crops for local communities. (and kills rainforests = our oxygen supply).
    As for what our responsibility to animals is, I am not sure. I believe we have at least a duty to prevent animals from being in harm while they are living (as in, opposing factory farms and animal cruelty). I am not sure however how animals react to being killed or their attitudes towards death. One might want to err on the side of caution here, though I am not sure that a cow or a cow's family has any specific existential attitudes towards death. If they had a sudden, instant and humane death I am not sure there would be any negative effect on the animal.
    That being said, I used to be a vegetarian (and a vegan). I was not opposed to eating animal products per se, simply that the means of extracting such products is often inhumane. I am not totally convinced eating meat (even free-range) is humane simply in terms of the animal, but I admit I'm merely too lazy and weak-willed to do otherwise. (I even eat factory meat, which I hope to stop.)
    Though I see no problem whatsoever with eating a naturally dead animal, of course.
    It's hard to judge the attitudes of animals without being anthrocentric.

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #76 - September 29, 2010, 09:58 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on September 29, 2010, 07:53 PM
    Q-man, can you get 4oD on youtube?

    http://www.youtube.com/show/thisisengland86

    Thank you. I have watched the movie and liked it. I'm looking forward to watching this.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #77 - September 29, 2010, 10:47 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 29, 2010, 03:36 PM
    Vegetarianism goes far deeper than just prevention of pain:
    - It is concerned with the right to a full life of every living being

    Awesome. So you'd be totally against killing any bacteria then? Mosquitoes too, of course. Or is it only cute and cuddly critters that have a right to a full life?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #78 - September 29, 2010, 10:54 PM
    I assume you mean sentient, not living, beings. 

    Otherwise what do you do to cancer cells if you got cancer -  Forget chemo & let them grow?
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  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #79 - September 29, 2010, 10:59 PM
    Yep. Typical vegetarian rant.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #80 - September 30, 2010, 02:27 AM
    Plants have feelings too!!
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #81 - September 30, 2010, 08:10 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 29, 2010, 10:54 PM
    I assume you mean sentient, not living, beings. 
    Otherwise what do you do to cancer cells if you got cancer -  Forget chemo & let them grow?


    Well let's not go over the top now. We’re talking apples and oranges here.

    Not only are cancer cells, bacteria, etc non-sentient beings with a no nervous system to feel pain but they can be considered predators. Anything that threatens our lives must be dealt with in whatever the best situation available is.

    I’m sure everyone would agree that killing a human for no reason is wrong. However if someone were to attack you or your child and your only option is to fight back even to the death you would. This is called self-defence.

    The same principle applies to cancer cells, mosquitoes, snakes, anything if it should threaten our lives.

    However if a being is of no threat to us and we for our own satisfaction take it upon ourselves to not only end its life prematurely but to cage it, deny it its natural habitat and natural way of life amongst its own, then I personally see a problem with that.

    However you may not. It's just the different philosophies we use to view the world.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #82 - September 30, 2010, 08:11 AM
    Quote from: Biaxident on September 30, 2010, 02:27 AM
    Plants have feelings too!!


    Bix, the purpose of most plants, from which we eat, is to provide, fruits, seed, grains, etc. which are meant to be eaten by animals/man and later deposited elsewhere to grow. For if they fell under the tree they would not grow.

    There is no need to kill the apple tree to get the apple.

    Plants that have a shot live, ie. produce their grains, (wheat, rice, etc) would die off anyway because that is the purpose of their live, seed and then die.

    Plants such as roots, potatoes, carrots, cassava, etc die back after the tubers have matured. So digging them up for food is essentially not killing the plant.

    Plants have been shown to react to outside stimuli. Experiments show minute reactions to fire, cuts, even loud noises. But such reactions cannot in any way be equated with emotive feelings as found in sentient beings.

    Further, plants are not subjected to any of the horrors that animals face, suffering their entire lives in factory farms, living a completely horrendous life. A major reason for activism amongst the animal lobbyists.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #83 - September 30, 2010, 08:26 AM
    So what about free range farming?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #84 - September 30, 2010, 08:32 AM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on September 29, 2010, 05:01 PM
    There are so many urban myths, out and out lies, lack of a proper education, misconceptions, debunked anti-meat propaganda, etc in that post I don't know where to start.

    Maybe you can start at the beginning and point out for each statement I made your evidence for attributing them as myths, lies, misconceptions, uneducated or simply propaganda. How about bringing some facts to the table instead of senseless rhetoric?
     
    Quote
    You are in need of complete reprogramming young 'un.

     
    For your information I’m not sure you’re in a position to judge whether I need re-programming or not.
    You do not know my age so please do not refer to me as young ‘un.
    And to think I’m the one being accused of berating people!
     
    Quote
    The real problem is too many people.

    Wow very instructive. Maybe you should be a director at the World Population Foundation.

    So what do you plan to do when it grows by another 3 billion by 2050? We will have to feed 50% more people.

    Actually we have the resources to do it, but they are just not being used in the most effective manner. But hey you wouldn’t be bothered because you discard facts as being lies, myths and misconception to suit a blinkered worldview.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #85 - September 30, 2010, 08:36 AM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 30, 2010, 08:32 AM
    So what do you plan to do when it grows by another 3 billion by 2050? We will have to feed 50% more people.

    That would be a total disaster. The world is already overpopulated. Frankly anyone who plans for increased population is being irresponsible and dangerous. They should be planning how to stop it increasing.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #86 - September 30, 2010, 08:45 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 30, 2010, 08:26 AM
    So what about free range farming?


    Yes sure that is an improvement on one aspect, which is the horrors of factory farming. But know that will increase the costs of your food considerably.

    So I say that is a step in the right direction. However there are many other considerations. The actual necessity to kill an animal for food, when there are healthier options from a vegetarian plate. Animals are killed long before the reach their natural lifespan. Why deny another being their right to life? The need for animal feed will still continue, which still poses the impact on farmland. Much more space will be required to rear animals if taken out of factory farms, which would much more efficiently used for cultivating crops. The pollution will still be an issue as will excessive use of water which is not becoming a rare commodity in many parts of the world.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #87 - September 30, 2010, 08:54 AM
    It wont increase the cost of my food at all, because I happen to live in an area where there is no factory farming and it is free range. I don't buy eggs from caged chooks either. It's free range or nothing as far as I'm concerned.

    The "healthier" bit is debatable. There are a lot of unhealthy vegetarians around and a lot of healthy meat eaters. If you try to tell me the healthy meat eaters would be even healthier if they didn't eat meat I'll tell you the anaemic vegetarians could do with a good steak. The fact the humans are naturally suited for a predominantly fruit/vegetable/grain diet does not necessarily mean that any and all meat in the diet is bad for you. Sure, you can find vegan sites that say it is but you can also find umpteen contrary views from equally well qualified sources.   
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #88 - September 30, 2010, 09:02 AM
    Ok and a few things about this:

    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 30, 2010, 08:10 AM
    Well let's not go over the top now. We’re talking apples and oranges here.

    No, we aren't really. The point is where do you want to draw the line and on what basis?


    Quote
    Not only are cancer cells, bacteria, etc non-sentient beings with a no nervous system to feel pain but they can be considered predators. Anything that threatens our lives must be dealt with in whatever the best situation available is.

    Not all of them, or insects or anything else, are predators or even parasites. The majority of them are little or no threat to us. Why should their lives be less valuable? Because they are less like us?


    Quote
    The same principle applies to cancer cells, mosquitoes, snakes, anything if it should threaten our lives.

    However if a being is of no threat to us and we for our own satisfaction take it upon ourselves to not only end its life prematurely but to cage it, deny it its natural habitat and natural way of life amongst its own, then I personally see a problem with that.

    However you may not. It's just the different philosophies we use to view the world.

    So on that basis, there would be no difference between killing a harmless insect and killing a cow. In fact if the cow was being killed for a reason (food) and the insect was being killed just "because it's a bug" then perhaps the latter is more of a problem in ethical terms.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #89 - September 30, 2010, 09:09 AM
    And while we're at it, some notes on Vitamin B12 deficiency.

    Quote from: wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency
    Causes

        Inadequate dietary intake of vitamin B12. As the vitamin B12 occurs naturally only in animal products (eggs, meat, milk); a vegan diet can produce a deficiency unless one uses supplements or eats enriched food


    Natural food sources of B12

    Vitamin B12 can be found in animal products, including fish, meat, poultry, eggs, milk, and milk products and fortified breakfast cereals.


    B12 deficiency is common among vegetarians and vegans who do not take B12 supplements. In vegans the risk is very high because none of their natural food sources contain B12. One American study found blood levels below normal in 92 % of vegans, 64 % of lactovegetarians, 47 % of lacto-ovo vegetarians who did not supplement their diet with B12.[38] The study applied the old normal values, so in reality a considerably greater proportion may have been deficient. On the other hand, one must take into account that the study was conducted in 1982 with a group taking no vitamin supplements: today soy drinks are often fortified with vitamin B12.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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