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Theme Changer

 Topic: Should Americans Fear Islam?

 (Read 12485 times)
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  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #30 - October 06, 2010, 03:18 AM

    I never said u shouldnt attack a religion but moderates by definition are skeptical, if they dont follow parts then they are skeptical about them.
    Should they step down in a debate , yes indeed , there is no point for them to be in one.
    However , if u are trying to force a confession by moderates about islam u will simple not get it, they will deny (as they are already skeptical about it) or are already ignorant about it <----- and this i see as a good sign not a bad one a step forward in reforming the religion.
    I am afraid that some of you here want to simple eradicate islam in a couple of days , that wont happen its about 1500 years old it will take some time and small steps , not gaint leaps.
    Christianity itself took similar steps, any dogma does.
    How many here left islam denouncing each and every law at once (one day muslim next day atheist or watever)? rare to none.
    Are moderates hindering the reformation of islam, NO moderates are themselves islam reformed, removing a religion entirely wont happen in a day or two nor in a year or 2.

     

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #31 - October 06, 2010, 03:25 AM

    Despite Tabun saying that we just ‘don’t get it’, we were never actually disagreeing anyway as far as I can tell. We were speaking cross purposes.


    Yeah that ^

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #32 - October 06, 2010, 03:31 AM

    But i never said "we" dont get it
    I said "u" dont get it in response to Billy really.
    I am always in sync with u Ishina, i love u <3  Kiss

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #33 - October 06, 2010, 03:37 AM

    "should americans fear islam"??.. this is not an easy one to answer..
     should the world fear any organized religion . we all know each one of them have their extremists..  should christianity be feared because of hitler or nazis.. ?
    was islam feared before september 11??

    maybe what should be feared.. is the number of  people who are manipulated in to the "extreme" or political islam .. that number scares me..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoGJP02CtPA

    on a personal note.. i wouldn't want anyone fearing my family members who are muslim.. the islam they practise only affects them and not anyone else....they wouldn't hurt a fly..
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #34 - October 06, 2010, 03:43 AM

    But i never said "we" dont get it
    I said "u" dont get it responding to Billy really.
    I am always in sync with u Ishina, i love u <3  Kiss


    Yeah, I just think there are two different arguments goin on here that are getting mixed up. I don't think billy is saying what you think he is saying. I don't think either of you are contradicting what the other is saying.

    I could be wrong though. Its late and I'm out of coffee.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #35 - October 06, 2010, 03:43 AM

    Jesus, Rev. Gram looks so creepy in the OP videos.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #36 - October 06, 2010, 03:48 AM

    Yeah, I just think there are two different arguments goin on here that are getting mixed up. I don't think billy is saying what you think he is saying. I don't think either of you are contradicting what the other is saying.

    I could be wrong though. Its late and I'm out of coffee.

    Maybe, its really late here too and i havent slept yet, perhaps i might be confusing stuff up. Cheers and nn

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #37 - October 06, 2010, 04:24 AM

    "should americans fear islam"??.. this is not an easy one to answer..
     should the world fear any organized religion . we all know each one of them have their extremists..  should christianity be feared because of hitler or nazis.. ?
    was islam feared before september 11??

    maybe what should be feared.. is the number of  people who are manipulated in to the "extreme" or political islam .. that number scares me..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoGJP02CtPA

    on a personal note.. i wouldn't want anyone fearing my family members who are muslim.. the islam they practise only affects them and not anyone else....they wouldn't hurt a fly..


    I think we need to establish what there is to be fearful of. It seems that most apologists for Islam like to paint critics of Islam as bigots who think all Muslims are potential suicide bombers or moustache twirling evil masterminds. Thats not the case. Just because some of the far-right fuckheads oppose Islam for the wrong reasons does not mean there are not right reasons to oppose it. There is ignorance on both sides, and the ignorant are getting all the attention.

    For me, the most dangerous thing about Islam are the subtle things - the strict emphasis on gender roles, the intolerance for expressing sexuality and free thought, the over-reaction to criticism and the special treatment expected. Even civil and familial matters path the way for this discrimination, the Islamic inheritance and divorce laws, for example. Surprisingly few 'moderates' I know actually oppose these things. Many actually think they are a good thing. These particular things may seem harmless at first glance but they make up the cornerstones of discrimination and oppression, particularly against women. These are the foundations that need to be uprooted. These principles are underestimated and overlooked while everyone is still bickering over 9/11. Its easy to argue over suicide bombers and 9/11, its a big old target to bash with blunt instruments. But both sides have used it to their advantage. If all the attention is on the images of planes flying into buildings and wild-eyed, rabid idiots on both sides, all the subtle stuff slips under the table unchecked and unnoticed.

    Besides these little things, Islam has a lot to answer for. And Muslims in the media are too quick to lay the blame on western imperialism, because in the current climate of bigot vs bigot, its an easy target, and there are plenty of self-loathing lefty pussies who use moderate Muslims as allies to bash on the far right reactionaries. This is just a stupid and pointless distraction for political gain and any idiot can join in with that. Neither side actually give a shit about Muslims. It just so happens that Islam is the flavour of the week.

    Lets be clear though - Sharia is not a military occupation. Honour killings are not casualties of war. Women in burqa are not prisoners of war. Executions and public scourging are not collateral damage. Thousands of daughters murdered each year, or faces disfigured by acid, child marriage and rapists protected by clerical authority. How many thousands have felt the Muslim whip for the heinous war crime of... having sex? Or having a beer? How many homosexuals have swung in the noose? How many are on death row right now? Lets stop pretending the systematic execution of homosexuals and adulterers, the regular butchery of thieves, the customary scourging of lovers and drinkers, the routine murder or imprisonment of blasphemers and apostates, the hundreds of acid attacks against women who refuse arranged marriage, and the thousands of honour killings, every year, throughout the centuries, are anything to do with 9/11 or war, or imperialism, or western foreign policy. This is the shit we need to expose - the dirty and ugly underbelly of Islam. We need to bring it to light, call it what it is, stop apologising for it and instead figure out ways to overcome it and wipe it out completely. Islam needs to own up to its shit fair and square. The moderates would do well to realise that when they are sat on their arse playing the victim.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #38 - October 06, 2010, 09:01 AM

    So u hate moderates because, they are cowards?
    So not wearing the hijab is "not admitting enough" babysteps now, lives are always at stake dont u agree?


    Dude, what are you talking about? If I keep saying clearly what I say, and then you keep going off on one, what is the point?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #39 - October 06, 2010, 09:40 AM

    I don’t think it was ever in doubt, in this thread at least....


     far away hug for the whole post

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #40 - October 06, 2010, 09:42 AM

    I said "u" dont get it in response to Billy really.


    Ishina and I are saying the same thing here mate, and have been saying the same thing on this thread.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #41 - October 06, 2010, 10:04 AM

    Ishina is on fire;  she's on fuckin fire throughout this thread. Afro Afro Afro

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #42 - October 06, 2010, 01:21 PM

    when i first joined this forum (at the time i was probably best described as a moderate Quran-only Muslim), there were a couple of members who seemed to dislike me cos i was a moderate - and told me they preferred the fundies cos they were more honest - i didn't know how to react to that or what to say so i just ended up rolling my eyes and ignoring.

    but i think an important point to make is that it's wrong to assume that a moderate muslim is lying or hiding anything - we have to accept that there can be completely different interpretations of scripture/hadith etc. and indeed question whether some hadith are even authentic. So for example some moderate Muslims would agrue that covering of hair is not ordered in Qur'an, there should be no punishment for homosexuality, no death penalty for adultery, men are no longer allowed to hit their wives etc. When it comes to hadith a lot of moderates are even more dismissive. It's obvious that moderate Muslims may be biased towards more liberal intrerpretations but then again they might argue that people who are against Islam are more biased to more nastier interpretations and more willing to accept the nastier hadith as truths when it's clear we can't be sure what is/what was the truth. there is no dishonesty or hiding going on sometimes - it's just a different way of interpreting things.

    i do agree however that moderates should speak out a lot more about the much nastier interpretation of scripture that is prevalent in some Muslim countries and stop getting so upset about people criticising islam - although i have a feeling that for this to be effective those voices need to come from within those countries themselves and  i have to admit that secular rule in some Muslim countries at the moment seems like a distant dream. having said this i have to say that a lot of moderate Muslims actually don't care about the criticisms of Islam and are just too busy getting on with their lives - people who appear on tv or in YT videos are not representitive of all moderates.

    nowadays i really do wish that religion was no more. i think a lot of religions did bring a great deal of light in times and places that were plunged in darkness. but those same religions have now become open to dangerous interpretations and contain no longer apropriate and outdated customs. it would be cool i think if most/all Muslims felt this way one day.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #43 - October 06, 2010, 01:40 PM

    nowadays i really do wish that religion was no more. i think a lot of religions did bring a great deal of light in times and places that were plunged in darkness. but those same religions have now become open to dangerous interpretations and contain no longer apropriate and outdated customs. it would be cool i think if most/all Muslims felt this way one day.

    So how do we go about doing this?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #44 - October 06, 2010, 01:51 PM

    Quote
    So how do we go about doing this?


    doing what?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #45 - October 06, 2010, 01:54 PM

    Making Muslims feel the same way i.e. come to the same conclusions as you have

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #46 - October 06, 2010, 05:28 PM

    if real change is what we are talking about then i do think that it has to come from within those countries themselves - stuff like this gives me some hope:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIsxDj-pSZE&feature=player_embedded

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvKpm80IQSA

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #47 - October 06, 2010, 06:23 PM

    and what can we do we about the Muslims around us?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #48 - October 06, 2010, 06:48 PM

    ^ Judge them according to what they do not what their religion says , how about that?

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #49 - October 06, 2010, 06:52 PM

    I dont think that will necessarily solve the problem unfortunately

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #50 - October 06, 2010, 07:02 PM

    I think it has to do with the values and the way they are presented to the kids when they are being indoctrinated.  The absolutist black and way which the values are presented do much to facilitate violent actions and make ordinary people justify them.  Then there is the problem of the interpretation of the quran.  The fact that most people see it as a kin to some tweet or sms from Allah to Muhammad and the way they have always interpreted it that way , make for even less leeway.  At the least the ambiguity and the Arabic language makes up for that.  The problem with Islam now is that once you find fault with Muhammad or one sentence of the Quran, the whole religion falls, given Islam's grandiose claims.

    I stopped being impressed by moderates, when I heard an everyday common moderate recommend the stoning of adulteresses as a way of preserving their honour quite casually, he also had no problems with lumping all Jews together.  This was not some flee bitten, caveman mullah with a big beard but a decent guy from an educated background, who condemned terrorism, violence and Al Qaeda.  To my horror I realised that the majority of man in his society thought that way too.  The fact they are far more interested in protesting about a burning Quran or anything Israel does but turn a blind eye towards other things is also telling.  

    Still I haven't generalised all of them.  I for one would have had absolutely no problems with welcoming people like AbuYunus2 as a neighbour, but I'm afraid I have seen few like him

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #51 - October 06, 2010, 07:11 PM

    Quote
    The problem with Islam now is that once you find fault with Muhammad or one sentence of the Quran, the whole religion falls, given Islam's grandiose claims.

    I agree.
    Quote
    I stopped being impressed by moderates, when I heard an everyday common moderate recommend the stoning of adulteresses as a way of preserving their honour quite casually

    What if he doesnt advocate that , is he still a moderate? While you're at it pls explain to me who "moderates" are and what do they believe, ty Smiley

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #52 - October 06, 2010, 07:16 PM

    I agree.What if he doesnt advocate that , is he still a moderate? While you're at it pls explain to me who "moderates" are and what do they believe, ty Smiley


    To be honest with you, the term moderate has really lost its meaning for me.  Everyone claims to be a moderate.  The moderation is totally subjective.  I would suspect that there are even people in Al Qaeda who think that they are moderates.  As for me, I like those who agree to keep religion a personal matter and acknowledge that they do not know the absolute truth and do not see everything in black and white.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #53 - October 06, 2010, 07:21 PM

    Quote
    moderation is totally subjective

    Exactly.
    Quote
    As for me, I like those who agree to keep religion a personal matter and acknowledge that they do not know the absolute truth and do not see everything in black and white.

    Agreed, so that makes prejustice wrong.

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #54 - October 06, 2010, 07:27 PM

    Lumping people together and pigeon holing is always dangerous.  I have always dislike collective ideologies but alas many people need the stability that being part of a herd gives even with all its dangerous baggage

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #55 - October 08, 2010, 02:19 AM

    I dont think that will necessarily solve the problem unfortunately

    The problem of what?

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #56 - October 08, 2010, 02:19 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbfFAYn8bgc&feature=sub

    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Should Americans Fear Islam?
     Reply #57 - October 08, 2010, 02:33 AM

    To be honest with you, the term moderate has really lost its meaning for me.  Everyone claims to be a moderate.  The moderation is totally subjective.  I would suspect that there are even people in Al Qaeda who think that they are moderates.  As for me, I like those who agree to keep religion a personal matter and acknowledge that they do not know the absolute truth and do not see everything in black and white.


    I think there is a difference between apologists and moderate.  There are apologist fundamentalists.  People who won't just scream that they will kill you, but will justify the most fascist and inhuman things

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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