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Theme Changer

 Topic: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration

 (Read 13936 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     OP - October 31, 2010, 11:30 AM

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11652750

    Turkey's main opposition leader and military officials have failed to attend the Republic Day reception hosted by President Abdullah Gul.

    Mr Gul had decided to allow his wife to wear the Islamic headscarf at the event in Ankara. In previous years he had held two separate receptions.

    The fiercely secular army held its own reception, just before the president's.

    Mr Gul's move is seen as a symbolic challenge to restrictions on wearing the scarf in public.

    It also reflects the government's growing confidence that it can overturn the restrictions, correspondents say.
    Continue reading the main story
    Related stories

    The Supreme Court recently has warned their relaxation violated the constitution.

    Women are currently forbidden from covering their heads in many universities and all government offices, but few universities are complying and the education ministry says it will back any student flouting the ban.

    President Gul had in the past held two receptions, so secular officials and military staff would not have to shake hands with his headscarf-wearing wife, Hayrunnisa.
    'Creeping Islamisation'

    The leader of the main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP), Kemal Kilicdaroglu, did not attend the presidential reception to mark the founding of modern Turkey by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

    "I am going to celebrate it among the people," he said.

    However, he added: "We are being unfair to the first lady. It is wrong to suggest that we are not going there because she wears a headscarf. Her choice of dress is her concern, not ours."

    Meanwhile, the military held its own reception that started half an hour before the president's.

    The BBC's Jonathan Head in Istanbul says headscarves matter a great deal in Turkey.

    The fact that Mr Gul's wife wears one initially blocked Mr Gul's bid for the presidency three years ago, and his Justice and Development Party (AKP) narrowly avoided being banned by the Constitutional Court.

    Our correspondent says the president's decision to throw down the gauntlet is a mark of the government's growing confidence that it can overturn the restrictions on headscarves, something its conservative supporters have long demanded.

    Secular Turks fear that lifting the ban may be the start of a creeping Islamisation of Turkish society.

    The government has repeatedly dismissed such fears as groundless.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #1 - October 31, 2010, 11:40 AM

    Quote
    Secular Turks fear that lifting the ban may be the start of a creeping Islamisation of Turkish society.


    Gradually undoing all the achievements Kemal Ataturk's vision bequeathed them!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #2 - October 31, 2010, 11:50 AM

    For reference to myself and others:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk

    Edit: wow!

    He has roads named after him in several countries, like the Kemal Atatürk Marg in New Delhi, India, Kemal Atatürk Avenue in Dhaka, Bangladesh, the Atatürk Avenue in the heart of Islamabad in Pakistan, the Atatürk Road in the southern city of province of Sindh of Pakistan called Larkana where Atatürk visited back in 1923, Mustafá Kemal Atatürk street in the Naco district of Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic, and the street and memorial Atatürk in the Amsterdam-Noord borough of Amsterdam, Netherlands.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #3 - October 31, 2010, 12:05 PM

    Quote
    In the face of knowledge, science, and of the whole extent of radiant civilization, I cannot accept the presence in Turkey's civilized community of people primitive enough to seek material and spiritual benefits in the guidance of sheiks. The Turkish republic cannot be a country of sheiks, dervishes, and disciples. The best, the truest order is the order of civilization. To be a man it is enough to carry out the requirements of civilization. The leaders of dervish orders will understand the truth of my words, and will themselves close down their lodges [tekke] and admit that their disciplines have grown up.


    And the results so far have vindicated his vision. But unfortunately people now want to regress!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #4 - October 31, 2010, 12:18 PM

    And his satute at the ANZAC memorial in Canberra.
    If the islamists can be somewhat like the christian democrats in Germany it wouldn't be all that bad. But it doesn't look like that to me. It's like the thing with bending the horse's leg in that Sandra bullock movie...Trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity.
    But it doesnt matter what I think, what do the turks say? I thought you had some here.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #5 - October 31, 2010, 12:19 PM

    Quote
    We must liberate our concepts of justice, our laws and our legal institutions from the bonds which, even though they are incompatible with the needs of our century, still hold a tight grip on us


    Quote
    Ottoman practice discouraged the social interaction between men and women aligned with the Islamic practice of sex segregation. Mustafa Kemal began to develop the concepts of his social reforms very early, as was evident in his personal journal. He and his staff constantly discussed issues like abolishing the veiling of women and the integration of women to social life. The clue on how he was planning to tackle the issue was stated in his journal on November 1915;
    “    The social change can come by (1) educating capable mothers who are knowledgeable about life; (2) giving freedom to women; (3) a man can change his morals, thoughts, and feelings by leading a common life with a woman; as there is an inborn tendency towards the attraction of mutual affection


    Quote
    To the women: Win for us the battle of education and you will do yet more for your country than we have been able to do. It is to you that I appeal.
    To the men: If henceforward the women do not share in the social life of the nation, we shall never attain to our full development. We shall remain irremediably backward, incapable of treating on equal terms with the civilizations of the West


    Quote
    There is no logical explanation for the political disenfranchisement of women. Any hesitation and negative mentality on this subject is nothing more than a fading social phenomenon of the past. ...Women must have the right to vote and to be elected; because democracy dictates that, because there are interests that women must defend, and because there are social duties that women must perform


    Yes HO, Wow! It's a tragedy that the Muslim world doesn't have anyone of  his stature to kick them awake!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #6 - October 31, 2010, 12:20 PM

    Excellent quotes hypocrucifier! This guy deserves the roads named after him!

    clap
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #7 - October 31, 2010, 12:26 PM

    And the results so far have vindicated his vision. But unfortunately people now want to regress!


    Well, Ataturk was an illiberal man. He banned certain visible symbols and manifestations of Islam in Turkish society. He was more vehement about that than practically any politician alive today, either in Islamic countries, or in Europe. If he was alive today, he would be called by some an 'Islamophobe', a fascist, and a 'bigot'

    Personally speaking, I find him an interesting character.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #8 - October 31, 2010, 12:53 PM

    Well, Ataturk was an illiberal man.


    Depends what perceptive one takes. From what I'm reading he has been liberal to women for example.

    If he was alive today, he would be called by some an 'Islamophobe', a fascist, and a 'bigot'


    To me this further enforces the idea of Europe suffering from relativism.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #9 - October 31, 2010, 01:00 PM

    Quote
    Depends what perceptive one takes. From what I'm reading he has been liberal to women for example.


    Yes, of course. His illiberalism lay in his banning of all forms of Islamic veiling from the public space, and the aggressive secularisation of Turkey.

    What is most interesting about Ataturk is his unambiguous belief, a belief that defined his entire life and struggle, that a society rooted in Islam could only progress through the direct challenging of Islamic precepts, and this included where nessecary, the marginalisation in the public space those symbols that asserted the temporal power of Islam.

    As I said, he was a very interesting character.






    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #10 - October 31, 2010, 01:07 PM

    If he was alive today, he would be called by some an 'Islamophobe', a fascist, and a 'bigot'



    Same thing goes for Winston Churchill, but he was the right man in the right time.  Still history always vindicates these people and proves them right.

    I have deep admiration for Ataturk, especially because of that speech he made to remember those that died at Gallipoli

    "There is no difference between the Johnnies
    and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side
    here in this country of ours."

    I bet few Westerners today can imagine the leader of a Muslim country or indeed any Muslim saying this..  Only a great man could have come up with those words.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #11 - October 31, 2010, 01:20 PM

    Quote
    Yes, of course. His illiberalism lay in his banning of all forms of Islamic veiling from the public space, and the aggressive secularisation of Turkey.


    Is it such a bad thing Billy? The results tell us he was right,he lifted his nation by its bootstraps and took them way past other Muslim nations,who were busy concerned about the purity of Islam they were following and other inanities casting development to the farthest back burner. He was the main architect of modern Turkey and an example they could emulate if only they gave up their medieval mindset. But the sad thing is they won't,soaked as they are in their belief of superiority[because the Koran tells them!].
    If it weren't for their oil wealth,they would have been doomed by now. The reality is, no one is harming them, they are screwing themselves up by their schizoid paranoia



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #12 - October 31, 2010, 01:23 PM

    What is most interesting about Ataturk is his unambiguous belief, a belief that defined his entire life and struggle, that a society rooted in Islam could only progress through the direct challenging of Islamic precepts, and this included where nessecary, the marginalisation in the public space those symbols that asserted the temporal power of Islam.


    Just reading up on this on the wiki page:

    Quote
    The Hat Law of 1925 introduced the use of Western style hats instead of the fez. Legislation did not explicitly prohibit veils or headscarves and focused instead on banning fezzes and turbans for men.

    Another control on the dress was passed in 1934 with the law relating to the wearing of 'Prohibited Garments'. It banned religion-based clothing, such as the veil and turban, while actively promoting western-style attire.


    Do you think he would have supported a ban on the burka like in France today? It certainly seems like he would do!
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #13 - October 31, 2010, 01:24 PM

    Is it such a bad thing Billy?


    Awaiting Billy's answer also.  yes
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #14 - October 31, 2010, 01:38 PM

    I thought Mustafa Kemal made it mandatory for prostitutes to wear the burka and that's what solved it.  Cheesy
    More than one way to skin a cat.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #15 - October 31, 2010, 01:53 PM

    Is it such a bad thing Billy?


    Why do you get the impression I was passing judgment about it being bad or good? Same question to High Octane.

    He did what he felt he needed to do to modernise Turkey, and he priveliged the right of the state to circumscribe Islam's role in the public life of his nation.

    I suspect that Ataturk took head on an issue that is often tip toed around and not confronted, and that is the propensity of Islam to dominate a society like Turkey politically as much as simply being content with spiritual matters.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #16 - October 31, 2010, 01:55 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVRJ-IOL2g4&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QurEYGBDv-U&feature=watch_response

    Kemal had to overcome madness like this to achieve his dreams.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #17 - October 31, 2010, 02:05 PM

    Why do you get the impression I was passing judgment about it being bad or good? Same question to High Octane.


    Because when you write, "Well, Ataturk was an illiberal man", to me this resonates a negative sentiment and when you write, "I find him an interesting character", I get the feeling you've not made up your mind about him. You've acknowledge the facts and described his actions in his shoes. This is all good and well. I am just curious of your personal opinion of him in moral terms. It doesn't matter and you don't have to give an answer, just curious what a thinker like you makes of him. I'm ever curious what deep thinkers think, that's all.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #18 - October 31, 2010, 02:09 PM

    Kemal had to overcome madness like this to achieve his dreams.


    This is so true. For a leader to lead such masses of people to progress - that is very impressive.  worship
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #19 - October 31, 2010, 02:19 PM

    HO did you view those videos completely? How does she compare with Socrates,Aristotle et al.
    The way she pimps for Islam makes me throw up,I feel as if I am in a bizarre nightmare,trying desperately to wake up and tell myself that this is not for real! Despite all that's discussed here at CEMB how can these idiots be so blind and attribute so much goodness to that religion?



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #20 - October 31, 2010, 02:26 PM

    Because when you write, "Well, Ataturk was an illiberal man", to me this resonates a negative sentiment and when you write, "I find him an interesting character", I get the feeling you've not made up your mind about him. You've acknowledge the facts and described his actions in his shoes. This is all good and well. I am just curious of your personal opinion of him in moral terms. It doesn't matter and you don't have to give an answer, just curious what a thinker like you makes of him. I'm ever curious what deep thinkers think, that's all.


    Well, he was illiberal in some ways. Ataturks sympathisers will say that his illiberalism on matters of, say the headscarf, was actually part of a wider, greater liberalism, the liberalism that would come from confronting Islam, which in Turkey he understood would always take on a propensity to political power. He saw that only if women could go beyond the oppressions of custom; the customs of purdah, separation, which were layered with Islam, only then could Turkey become a modern, liberal, prosperous state.

    This is one of the reasons why he is so interesting.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #21 - October 31, 2010, 02:30 PM

    Despite all that's discussed here at CEMB how can these idiots be so blind and attribute so much goodness to that religion?


    Many in my family are like her. Islamic robots, bless them. Why you ask? Some answers: pride, cognitive dissonance, indoctrination, fear, hatred, false grievances, "Us Vs Them" mentality.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #22 - October 31, 2010, 02:33 PM

    Well, he was illiberal in some ways. Ataturks sympathisers will say that his illiberalism on matters of, say the headscarf, was actually part of a wider, greater liberalism, the liberalism that would come from confronting Islam, which in Turkey he understood would always take on a propensity to political power. He saw that only if women could go beyond the oppressions of custom; the customs of purdah, separation, which were layered with Islam, only then could Turkey become a modern, liberal, prosperous state.

    This is one of the reasons why he is so interesting.





    But why is this interesting sorry?

    Personally I just find it right and just what he did and is an example for what should be done today i.e. the Islamic illiberalism for progressive/practical liberalism.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #23 - October 31, 2010, 02:42 PM

    Quote
    But why is this interesting sorry?

     

    I really don't know how to answer that.

    I'll make a try though.

    Ataturk's narrative is interesting because he is at the confluence of so many streams of history, social reform, religious reform, Islam in the modern world, the potency of Islamic symbolism, secularism, the issue of veiling, the aftermath of the Islamic (Ottoman) empire, the political propensity of Islam as an organising force in societies where it has roots, the struggle for nationhood and self-identity, the struggle for Islamic societies to deal with the forces of modernity, female liberation, the balance between the rights of the individual over the need to confront and curtail the assertiveness of Islam in a society that aspires to modernity, and some other things too.

    All of those issues make Ataturk an interesting historical figure.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #24 - October 31, 2010, 03:05 PM

    Oh I see where you are coming from now, thanks! Afro
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #25 - October 31, 2010, 03:07 PM



    I really don't know how to answer that.

    I'll make a try though.

    Ataturk's narrative is interesting because he is at the confluence of so many streams of history, social reform, religious reform, Islam in the modern world, the potency of Islamic symbolism, secularism, the issue of veiling, the aftermath of the Islamic (Ottoman) empire, the political propensity of Islam as an organising force in societies where it has roots, the struggle for nationhood and self-identity, the struggle for Islamic societies to deal with the forces of modernity, female liberation, the balance between the rights of the individual over the need to confront and curtail the assertiveness of Islam in a society that aspires to modernity, and some other things too.

    All of those issues make Ataturk an interesting historical figure.






    Do you think that his measures were what were needed at the time though?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #26 - October 31, 2010, 03:20 PM

    Many in my family are like her. Islamic robots, bless them. Why you ask? Some answers: pride, cognitive dissonance, indoctrination, fear, hatred, false grievances, "Us Vs Them" mentality.


    LOL! coz  I am flummoxed! the extent of brainwashing that I notice is frightening. Who said tribalism is dead?



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #27 - October 31, 2010, 03:48 PM

    Yep, well you'd be surprised I'm afraid. You're not an ex-Muslim, explains your surprise. Book for you.  Afro

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #28 - October 31, 2010, 04:32 PM

    Do you think that his measures were what were needed at the time though?


    What do you think?


    I think that Ataturk wrestled the Islamic bull by the horns, and that was probably the only way that the land that formed the seat of the Ottoman Islamic empire could ever rid itself of the Ummah-itis that other Islamic nations still have a dose of.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #29 - October 31, 2010, 04:47 PM

    billy why are you so darn elusive at times?!? Is it to create suspense or something? Grin
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