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 Topic: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism

 (Read 15635 times)
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  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #30 - November 22, 2010, 09:07 PM

    Saudis caught bang to rights!

    Their embassy's 'cultural centre' funding schools all over the country teaching hateful, horrible bigotry. What is it in them that wants to spread this kind of shit in this nation amongst Muslim children? That Jews are sub-human, that gays should be killed either by stoning, by fire, or by pushing them off a cliff? Teaching them diagrams of how to amputate limbs under sharia, how to hate non Muslims, how all non Muslims are going to burn in hell.




    Absolutely disgusting indeed. Excellent report though, got to love Panorama!  Afro
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #31 - November 22, 2010, 10:08 PM

    Peace all,

    I am wondering though: when you were Muslim, how many of you guys would have been defending the Saudi-run schools and how many would have been embarrassed by this report, concocting the usual apologies of "historical context" (and also perhaps desiring a progressive stance toward "integration")?

    TT


    I would never have defended the Saudi Curriculum - at Islamia School very early on we decided not to use any of the books from Muslim countries but use standard UK School books and follow the National Curriculum.

    Having said that I know many who would have defended the Saudi curriculum - and wanted Islamia to use such books
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #32 - November 22, 2010, 11:07 PM

    http://www.daruliftaa.com/question.asp?txt_QuestionID=q-17333945

    That's the fatwa site mentioned in the documentary ^^.  In this one someone who works at a firm that deals with immigration asks the scholar whether they should help people who are fleeing the death penalty in an Islamic country (due to adultery, apostacy), the scholar's reply is NO!

    Fucking prick!

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #33 - November 22, 2010, 11:13 PM

    Damn, that was a shocking insight. The worrying thing was this was at a micro scale; if we really took the majority of Islamic Schools, and the mainstream ones, we'll see much more forms of lack of integration and isolation. Hope people open their eyes after this.

    Ahh Mufi Muhammad ibn Adam. Whilst a Muslim, I respected him much. I'm not too sure now.
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #34 - November 23, 2010, 12:16 AM

    Peace all,

    I am wondering though: when you were Muslim, how many of you guys would have been defending the Saudi-run schools and how many would have been embarrassed by this report, concocting the usual apologies of "historical context" (and also perhaps desiring a progressive stance toward "integration")?

    TT


    You know what TT you do have a point. Saudis aside - I did used to come out with all sorts of apologetic shit that now makes me cringe.

    Why is that? I mean what makes one do that when part of you feels its wrong? If we could discover that then that would be the secret to reaching people right?

    I think it's that we just simply couldn't believe Islam could be wrong - the Qur'an must be a divine message - so there MUST be an explanation?

    The fault it ours.

    We cannot grasp it.

    It has some secret code.

    That's why you hang on - right?

    That's why you still come up with all this mystical stuff - isn't it?

    You want honesty?

    How about you being honest TT?
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #35 - November 23, 2010, 12:31 AM

    +1 You know TT it would be great if you would reply to this & some of the post z10s put to you in your thread

    ..Cheers

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #36 - November 23, 2010, 12:35 AM

    Lol. I think it's hard to accept any long-held idea is wrong. Apologetics isn't limited to religion, you see some scientists/philosophers try desperately to find ways round things that don't fit their theories. Of course there isn't usually the same level of stubbornness, but it's not so different I don't think. I think why people sometimes unreasonably invest energy into an endeavour , energy that might be better used starting from scratch, because they've already invested so much in it (this isn't uncommon in nature) might have something to do with it.
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #37 - November 23, 2010, 12:37 AM

    You know what TT you do have a point. Saudis aside - I did used to come out with all sorts of apologetic shit that now makes me cringe.

    Why is that? I mean what makes one do that when part of you feels its wrong? If we could discover that then that would be the secret to reaching people right?


    Yes, I think it is definitely worth working out why there is a compulsion for the apologetics.

    But my specific point to this BBC documentary is that, while I have encountered a number of real nut cases since moving to the UK (usually giving the hutbas), the majority of "ordinary" UK Muslims I have met are of the apologetic type. Which means they are deluded, but not a national threat -- more a threat to their own individual mental health. But that might well have to do with the people I am hanging out with -- I have had some conversations with Quilliam people for example and they paint a more scary picture.



    I think it's that we just simply couldn't believe Islam could be wrong - the Qur'an must be a divine message - so there MUST be an explanation?

    At least it as some secret code?

    That's why you hang on - right?

    That's why you still come up with all this mystical stuff - isn't it?

    You want honesty?

    How about you being honest TT?


    Smiley

    Honestly: I am not an apologist for Islam -- I can't be, as I am not a Muslim. I have my own system that I project onto the texts -- but you could "ignore" the texts and the system would be just as meaningful (just less poetic).  It's not a secret code as such -- just a personal projection: the projection is the point for me, not the thing being projected onto.
    I apostatized -- publicly -- a while back: out of necessity. I do like certain groups of Muslims and Ex-Muslims though (yourself included) and continue to try to help out when appropriate.

    L&L,

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #38 - November 23, 2010, 12:40 AM

    Lol. I think it's hard to accept any long-held idea is wrong. Apologetics isn't limited to religion, you see some scientists/philosophers try desperately to find ways round things that don't fit their theories. Of course there isn't usually the same level of stubbornness, but it's not so different I don't think. I think why people sometimes unreasonably invest energy into an endeavour , energy that might be better used starting from scratch, because they've already invested so much in it (this isn't uncommon in nature) might have something to do with it.

    I think its deeper than that, I think the roots of religious brainwash runs down to the essence of our very being.  

    So even if the brain cannot make sense of it, the rest of our being can.  Another way of describing this comes with the word "faith"

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #39 - November 23, 2010, 12:48 AM


    There is something more, the hardwired nature of the beliefs is one thing. But there is an identity straightjacket too that is tribal in instinct, that is particularly strong. And a fear that holds individuals in check. Fear of Allah / the afterlife, and fear of the consequences of betraying the ummah in this.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #40 - November 23, 2010, 01:02 AM

    I think its deeper than that, I think the roots of religious brainwash runs down to the essence of our very being.  


    Very true. I would argue that the brainwashing is not merely religious, it's all kinds of consent that we are unaware of.

    This is getting a bit off topic, but Idris Shah was a contemporary Sufi (actually, the Qutub!) who had some ideas about education as a process of "learning how to learn", which involved "unlearning" the junk that we consent to. People like Robert Ornstein followed this through practically in interesting ways ...

    There is a parallel universe in which these madrasses are implementing Shah's Sufi principles to education Smiley

    He had a nice (but twee way of putting things):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSCBETY50MA

    L&L,

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #41 - November 23, 2010, 01:37 AM

    Yes, I think it is definitely worth working out why there is a compulsion for the apologetics.

    But my specific point to this BBC documentary is that, while I have encountered a number of real nut cases since moving to the UK (usually giving the hutbas), the majority of "ordinary" UK Muslims I have met are of the apologetic type. Which means they are deluded, but not a national threat -- more a threat to their own individual mental health. But that might well have to do with the people I am hanging out with -- I have had some conversations with Quilliam people for example and they paint a more scary picture.



    Smiley

    Honestly: I am not an apologist for Islam -- I can't be, as I am not a Muslim. I have my own system that I project onto the texts -- but you could "ignore" the texts and the system would be just as meaningful (just less poetic).  It's not a secret code as such -- just a personal projection: the projection is the point for me, not the thing being projected onto.
    I apostatized -- publicly -- a while back: out of necessity. I do like certain groups of Muslims and Ex-Muslims though (yourself included) and continue to try to help out when appropriate.

    L&L,

    The Tailor


    For a reason I don't quite know - I want to ask you what your ethnic origin is?

    And yeah - I do want to help - not destroy - though in the process I seem to be destroying.
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #42 - November 23, 2010, 01:43 AM

    Just curious, do you guys think anything would happen from the UK government on this? I mean, the government isn't spineless enough to allow anti-Semitism, homophobia and stoning gays to children?
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #43 - November 23, 2010, 01:43 AM

    I think its deeper than that, I think the roots of religious brainwash runs down to the essence of our very being.  

    So even if the brain cannot make head or sense of it, the rest of our being can.  Another way of describing this comes with the word "faith"


    I hate that word, but that's another discussion I cba with right now,,,

    And sure, religious beliefs are ingrained far more deeply in us.... I was just replying to this from Hassan "Why is that? I mean what makes one do that when part of you feels its wrong? If we could discover that then that would be the secret to reaching people right?".
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #44 - November 23, 2010, 01:45 AM

    There is something more, the hardwired nature of the beliefs is one thing. But there is an identity straightjacket too that is tribal in instinct, that is particularly strong. And a fear that holds individuals in check. Fear of Allah / the afterlife, and fear of the consequences of betraying the ummah in this.



    I did definitely have a fear of Allah whenever a doubt entered my mind, it was as if that in itself was a crime, but personally I can't say I cared much about the consequences of betraying the ummah.
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #45 - November 23, 2010, 01:46 AM



    This is getting a bit off topic, but Idris Shah was a contemporary Sufi (actually, the Qutub!)



    I thought Shah's status as the qutub was dismissed by many sufis?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #46 - November 23, 2010, 05:52 AM

    Quote from: Hassan
    I would never have defended the Saudi Curriculum - at Islamia School very early on we decided not to use any of the books from Muslim countries but use standard UK School books and follow the National Curriculum.


    Aside from the national cirriculum, what did you teach your students about Islam and the life of the "prophet"? What did you teach them regarding Allah's opinion og Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims? Did you teach them that Muhammad and his followers were forced to flee from Mecca to Yathrib as a result of "persecution" and that after the hijra the Muslims were "forced" to fight wage a "defensive" war against Mecca?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #47 - November 23, 2010, 06:01 AM

    Thomas Jefferson had slaves while writing the Declaration of Independence.  What an asshole. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #48 - November 23, 2010, 07:05 AM

    Or in the words of Dr Johnson: "Why is it that we hear the loudest yelps for freedom from the drivers of Negroes?"

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #49 - November 23, 2010, 09:34 AM

    And sure, religious beliefs are ingrained far more deeply in us.... I was just replying to this from Hassan "Why is that? I mean what makes one do that when part of you feels its wrong? If we could discover that then that would be the secret to reaching people right?".

    yes and when you get the answer be sure to let me know

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #50 - November 23, 2010, 10:12 AM

    I thought Shah's status as the qutub was dismissed by many sufis?


    The Tailor's not "many sufis" Wink
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #51 - November 23, 2010, 10:39 AM

    That is true - I was just surprised because I've found that alot of sufis distance themselves from Shah because they find that he was just a frontman without any substance. There is also the issue of his having lied about being in possession of a certain ancient manuscript that was held by his family but was never produced by him - I do not know if this story is accurate (and wiki does outline it pretty well) but if it is accurate then it does undermine his self-proclaimed status as the "pole" of the world or "hidden imam" of his age.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #52 - November 23, 2010, 01:23 PM

    Shah started out as a magic mushroom taking, chain smoking occultist (he was secretary to Gardner, one of the original popularisers of paganism in the UK) and quite Imperially anachronistic in a sort of "Richard Burton" way (certainly he would not have existed and taught in this particular way had it not been for the dying days of the British Empire). Yes, he "faked" a lot of stuff -- including his Muhammedean lineage. It's actually because he faked it that I know he was the real deal Smiley

    He actually came from a more familiar background, even working in Halal food certification. His brother is a "proper" Naqshbandi sufi sheikh - quite a lot more "traditional" in his approach.

    I'd say the most interesting thing about his Sufism is -- as you can see from that video (if you watch the rest of it) -- he shows what Sufism looks like when you remove all the Islamic terminology. It's still all there, pretty much the kind of thing I bang on about here and in my blog, but I retain the terminology -- essentially because these are different times from Shah's, and my audience is a different audience.

    For example, in his book the Commanding Self, he has some great lines about cooking, where it appears he is just discussing recipes for curry, like some Asian uncle, talking about how to cook well. But under the hood, he is going on about what the nature of "halal" is, what a "recipe" is (a "recipe" is the ability to not get attached to the recipes we are given -- by Churches, Governments, authority figures -- e.g., blowing people up if they cook different kinds of recipes from our own -- and, instead, to get down to business and actually eat the "food" of truth).

    Anyhow he described Sufism as a kind of vine that will grow onto any tree (Christian, Judaic, Hindu, Islamic, atheist humanist) and adopt its terminology, but to deliver the same message. So many of my Shah friends are actually Christian or ostensibly atheists -- but they make great Sufis nevertheless.

    Anyhow, one thing that people forget about Naqshbandi sheikhs is that they sometimes use tricks, irony and practical jokes as a teaching device. They've been doing that since their movement began. Basically the prerequisite is to "fake it". That's what went on with the "fake manuscript": it was Shah trying to teach Robert Graves a point about what the nature of the "manuscript" archetype is (it is the text of your own perception). And Graves failed to "get it", as he insisted  (like a literalist Muslim, basically) on wanting physical evidence.

    Anyhow I get the same kind of thing from "religious" Sufi types: "no silsilah (lineage), no right to teach". Shah's in my lineage, though ultimately it's the Hound Dog that I look toward for astral guidance.

    Love and Light,

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #53 - November 23, 2010, 04:26 PM

    So what is your opinion on Faith Schools, TT? Should they be banned? Allowed to teach what they like? Restricted or monitored in some way?

    Obviously when I was a Muslim I was in favour of them and thought they would give Muslims a strong sense of their identity. I myself was always keen on the idea of Muslims being integrated but at the same time not losing their identity as Muslims - much like Jews have been quite successful at doing.

    In fact I used to argue that Islamia School played a positive role in integrating Muslim children into society as it was able to counteract the extreme versions of Islam from a position of authority within Islam and can influence the children towards moderate views much better than state schools, since the children who come from families who hold extreme views will simply dismiss what is being said by non-Muslims on the grounds that they don't speak with authority from within Islam.

    I still think that is a fair point - at least in the case of Islamia while I was there. However I am now against Faith Schools as I think they do far more harm. No matter how well-intentioned or moderate the school they will still inevitably - by their very nature - create a "Them and Us" mentality.

    Not only that, Islamia School had a very difficult internal struggle with those who wanted the school to be more "traditional" and it was largely because of some key characters (our Sufi Sheikh for example) that the moderates won out in the end. However the threat of being taken over by more hard-line elements is ever present - again by the very nature of having an "Islamic School".

    And that is not to mention all the other Islamic Schools that have since sprouted which are far less moderate than we were - and many of which are run on very "traditional" "Salafi" lines.

    In fact I used to think we had won the battle against the Salafis and they were in decline - but I'm not sure anymore - certainly in some areas they are growing in influence and getting more and more isolationist.
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #54 - November 23, 2010, 05:31 PM

    hater^^^^^^

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #55 - November 23, 2010, 05:39 PM

    2-3
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #56 - November 23, 2010, 05:50 PM

    F U

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #57 - November 23, 2010, 06:17 PM

    Arsenal, lol
  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #58 - November 23, 2010, 06:29 PM


    Hassan....I think a city like London might be able to handle it, but its in the northern milltowns, where segregation and insularity is already an issue, that I feel in the long term, faith schools could be catastrophic, by formalising ghettoisation even further, and then teaching separatism and insular ideas as a matter of course down the generations. That is really, really bleak.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Saudi funded schools in the UK teaching hatred & extremism
     Reply #59 - November 23, 2010, 06:58 PM

    F U


    Hehehe...  Afro  grin12
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