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 Topic: Morals for Atheists

 (Read 15256 times)
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  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #30 - December 30, 2010, 02:03 AM

    sick burn by dawkins

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #31 - December 30, 2010, 02:40 AM

    Ayn Rand: Objectivism

    Author Ayn Rand's philosophical system, known as Objectivism, holds that the ultimate value upon which all other values depend is the individual's life, and that ethics ultimately consists of self-interest, each individual doing whatever benefits his or her life the most. Objectivist moral philosophy rejects altruism, instead arguing that each person should do only what is best for that person.

    However, as should be obvious, the glaring problem with Objectivism is that it fails to accommodate Prisoner's Dilemma-like situations. If two or more Objectivists were placed in such a situation, each would immediately pick the option that was best for him individually, and the result would be a poor outcome for all. If all the individuals in this situation are rational (and rationality is a key tenet of Objectivism), they would all soon realize that the only realistic way for any of them to attain a good outcome is for each of them to cooperate and pick the less selfish course of action, i.e., to be altruistic. But this is a contradiction with the basic Objectivist tenet of selfish behavior. The fact that the selfish interests of rational individuals very often conflict, and the fact that doing what is best for us individually sometimes requires acting in altruistic ways, cause the entire system of Objectivism to collapse. To find a workable universal moral code, we must look elsewhere.


    Aristotle: Virtue Ethics

    The ethical system of Aristotle, developed in the Eudemian Ethics and the Nicomachean Ethics, argues that there is a single highest good that is desirable purely for its own sake. Aristotle identifies this good as happiness (eudaimonia) and argues that it can be achieved through practicing the virtues, qualities which he identifies as courage, wisdom, kindness, and so on. He further argues that each virtue lies in the middle of a continuum, in between two undesirable extremes; for example, courage lies in between the vices of cowardice and rashness.

    While Aristotle's system has much to recommend it - in particular, its correct identification of happiness as the ultimate good - its major problem is that it does not explain why some traits are virtues and not others. It does not argue that the specific qualities he identifies will lead to happiness rather than others. It also does not adequately support the claim that virtue lies in the middle of a continuum rather than at its extremes - might not extremism in defense of other good traits be a virtue, for example, rather than compromising with evil?

    Aristotelian ethics, though they are not inherently flawed, lack foundation; they are "floating free" without sufficient justification. However, its listed virtues do intuitively seem like good ideas, so a worthwhile moral system should be able to derive them.


    Jean-Jacques Rousseau: The Social Contract

    The theory of the social contract, proposed by Enlightenment thinkers such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, holds that individuals may freely agree to join together into a group (a state) in which each individual member, as well as the state as a whole, possesses certain rights and responsibilities. The main idea in this ethical system is that each individual agrees to surrender a certain amount of his or her freedom in return for protection and other benefits that accrue from being a member of that state.

    There is nothing inherently problematic with this idea, but social contract theory cannot provide the foundation for an ethical system, for the following reason: while a state may be needed to enforce morality, it cannot create it. Democracy is the only ethical system of government, but it cannot itself be the way to create ethics - that would imply that what is right and wrong can change with the changing will and cultural mores of the people, which is, as stated above, a conclusion I must reject. Even if we assume for the moment that we have a state whose members have the power to create and enforce laws, we are still left with the question of what laws to create and why. In sum, social contract theory assumes the existence of some underlying morality which the social contract itself does not provide - and thus we must delve deeper to find the true foundation of ethical behavior.


    Immanuel Kant: The Categorical Imperative

    The philosopher Immanuel Kant's theory of the categorical imperative holds that one should not act in accordance with any principle that one cannot rationally will to be a universal law. For example, take the case of a person who is short of money and asks someone else for a loan, promising to repay it but secretly intending not to do so. If we apply the categorical imperative to this situation, we find that if everyone were to behave in this same way, no one would ever trust anyone else's promises. Therefore, it would be impossible for anyone to get a loan from anyone else, and a contradiction occurs; the person who wants the loan cannot rationally will that everyone act the same as him, otherwise he would not get the loan. Kant's system connects morality with rationality and holds that we should only act in ways where no such contradictions arise.

    The categorical imperative does correctly sweep the board clear of actions such as lying, stealing and killing which have been generally agreed to be immoral. However, the problem with this moral system is that it is too strict: it rules out as immoral things which rational people can intuitively agree are not immoral at all. For example, take the case of what a person does for a living. According to the categorical imperative, what career should we choose? Clearly, under this principle we cannot rationally choose to be doctors, or lawyers, or computer programmers, or politicians, or artists, or craftsmen, or in fact any other specialized career - because if everyone did the same thing, society would collapse and the openings for these specialized positions would no longer exist. In fact, the only career we could choose according to this system would be the one career that we can without contradiction will to be universal: namely, a subsistence farmer, growing only the necessities of life and making all one's possessions oneself.

    Clearly, this is an error. It is not morally wrong to choose a specialized career. In fact, the division of labor that exists in industrialized societies is the very thing that makes possible scientific research and technological advancement that brings about much overall good, such as cures for diseases and improvements in the length and quality of life. The categorical imperative fails when it comes to the important issue of what we should do for a living.

    Another important problem with the categorical imperative is that it offers no advice on what to do when universal laws conflict. Certainly there are situations in which two incompatible actions could both be construed as the right thing to do, and the principle guiding each one could be universalized without contradiction. What, then, do we choose? (A concrete example: You pass a beggar on the street asking for money. One course of action might be to give it to him, on the grounds that this unfortunate is a human being who deserves compassion and assistance. Another might be to not give him anything, on the grounds that the homeless should be encouraged to work for a living rather than ask for handouts. It seems that a society could abide by either of these principles without producing widespread self-contradictory behavior. What would this system advise?)

    A third problem with the categorical imperative is that it is too strict, in that it encourages us to formulate exceptionless universal laws which take no notice of relevant factors that might make an act wrong in one circumstance but right in another. For example, take the classic case of a person in Nazi Germany sheltering Jewish refugees in his house when a Gestapo officer comes to the door and demands to know if he has seen any Jews lately. Clearly, the moral thing to do here is to lie. But the categorical imperative, in this case, says exactly the opposite - that we should tell the truth! The categorical imperative against lying admits of no exception, no matter the extenuating circumstances. Kant himself said as much: in his essay On a Supposed Right to Tell Lies From Benevolent Motives, he argued that even the protection of innocent lives does not release us from our moral duty to never lie and to immediately disclose the full truth to anyone who asks us any question.

    On this point, the categorical imperative is not just wrong, it is abhorrent. A system so manifestly in error cannot serve as the basis for a universal moral system, and therefore we must look elsewhere.


    Herbert Spencer: Evolutionary Ethics

    The ethical system sometimes called evolutionary ethics holds that human beings' sense of right and wrong originates from the process of natural selection that brought our species into existence. Under this proposal, our moral sense is an evolutionary adaptation for living together in social situations. This ethical system has no one founder, but perhaps its most infamous advocate was Herbert Spencer, who defended a version of it commonly known as "Social Darwinism" which proposes that it is both biologically foreordained and morally right that certain races and economic classes be treated as inferior.

    Aside from the fact that evolutionary theory supports no such notions (human beings as a species are very genetically homogeneous, and no one group of people is inherently more biologically "fit" than any other), the fatal problem with this ethical system and all others like it is that it commits what is known as the naturalistic fallacy by attempting to derive an "ought" from an "is". Simply stated, just because something happens in nature does not mean it is right that such a thing should happen. All ethical theories that claim otherwise illicitly leap from noting the occurrence of a fact to attaching a value to that fact. Even versions of evolutionary ethics which hold that cooperation and reciprocal altruism are our species' nature suffer from this problem. Given the enormous diversity of behavior observed in nature - from selfishness, parasitism and xenophobia to love, altruism and cooperation - any simplistic attempt to derive a moral system from biology is bound to fail, and in any case no moral system can escape the fact that observation of facts alone can never produce an ethical "ought".


    Jeremy Bentham: Act Utilitarianism

    The philosopher Jeremy Bentham, and John Stuart Mill after him, made one of the most significant contributions to the field of moral philosophy with their formulation of the good known as utilitarianism. In Bentham's original version of utilitarianism, good is whatever brings the greatest happiness to the greatest number of people.

    Though later modifications may have improved this system, as originally postulated it is not sufficient. For example, act utilitarianism makes no allowance for the concept of human rights - if treating one person or group unfairly would bring happiness to a greater number of others, this system would counsel us to do it. (One example of this might be a government passing a law to censor the speech of a small and unpopular political group.) Also, it judges acts purely according to their consequences, disregarding motive and intent; it holds that pleasure is always valuable even if obtained through evil acts.

    Despite these problems, utilitarianism has much to recommend it; most importantly, it correctly identifies human happiness and suffering as the fulcrums of morality. It seems that its major flaws could be fixed by grafting the doctrine of human rights onto it, but what would be the justification for such a forced coupling? A satisfactory ethical code should be able to derive that idea from first principles rather than tacking it on in an ad hoc fashion.


    John Rawls: Contractarianism

    The philosopher John Rawls' influential conception of morality, which is an extension of Kantian and social-contract ideas, holds that the way to establish a just society is to have the relevant parties - either the people who live in that society or rational agents representing the interests of those people - agree to meet and draw up a set of rules governing how that society will operate. The catch is that these decisions must be made from behind what Rawls calls the veil of ignorance - a hypothetical position in which none of the negotiators know morally irrelevant facts about the parties they represent, such as their age, sex, race, social class or religious beliefs. Deprived of this information, the negotiators cannot insist on rules that benefit any one group, but rather will be motivated to work out rules that treat every group fairly and equally, since they do not know what their ultimate position in society will end up being once they step out from behind the veil of ignorance.

    There is much merit in Rawls' conception of social justice, and its main flaw is not a theoretical but a practical one: his proposal is and forever will be a thought experiment only. There is no way this scenario could ever actually be carried out, and no matter how good a moral system seems in the abstract, it does no good to postulate one not grounded firmly in reality. Morality is inseparably enmeshed with everyday experience, and we need a moral system that recognizes this, one that can be used "on the ground" to serve as a reliable guide to ethical reasoning without removing all the actors to a far-away notional realm. This conception of justice does not help to reach a decision unless we assume that all people act as if they were reasoning from Rawls' original position, and this is clearly not the case.


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #32 - December 30, 2010, 02:53 AM

    Thoughts from one of my favorite thinkers, Sam Harris:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sfGw98pVCA

    Questions of good and evil, right and wrong are commonly thought unanswerable by science. But Sam Harris argues that science can - and should - be an authority on moral issues, shaping human values and setting out what constitutes a good life.

    FULL LECTURE HERE

    001_wub


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #33 - December 30, 2010, 05:03 AM

    I still haven't read the Moral Landscape though. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Morals for Atheists
     Reply #34 - December 30, 2010, 05:54 AM

    Wow, that Dawkins clip was entirely spot on. One simply can't counter that.
    Well, certain highly religious folks can, but I meant, without sounding retarded  or completely missing the point Smiley

    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #35 - July 08, 2014, 04:05 PM

    You know, I just got to thinking, is killing, raping and murdering the only moral issues we should be worried about?

    I recently came into contact with 2 ex muslims in SA and I was honestly surprised by them, now I don't like to judge and I gave them both a fair chance. But from what I have seen they both thrive on being that rebel, drugs and alcohol are a staple part of their lives and they just say what they want to without thinking. They seem to like this 'tough guy' act

    And I got to wondering, just because we have no religion does that mean we strive on being morally loose? NOt watching how we talk to people? I found they both were a bit selfish and ungrounded. I'm not judging their lifestyle and choices, but I am questioning the humanity behind it. Ye sure they won't murder, rape and steal, but what about how you interact with other people? WHat happened to being a good person?

    Personally I have left Islam in MArch, since then I have started drinking (not a lot) and I eat haraam foods, I don't wear a hijaab, but I don't feel the need to go crazy with the open ended life that I now live or to go crazy outside of the rules. I still feel I have a responsibility to conduct myself responsibly.

    Does having no religion mean having no rules? 

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #36 - July 08, 2014, 04:09 PM

    Does having no religion mean having no rules?  

    Yap no rules.. no rules et al  

    "JUST ONE RULE TO LIVE MY LIFE"...

    only one rule and that rule beats shit of all rules of all religions..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgHoyTvyh4o

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #37 - July 08, 2014, 04:20 PM

    Sex with animals isn't illegal in this country.

    Most people are members of the state church.

    Thus, morals aren't linked to religion.

    Except if you find that animals can find pleasure in having sex with humans. Then the religious command of "do good" makes sense when you shack a bitch.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #38 - July 08, 2014, 04:28 PM

    Sex with animals isn't illegal in this country.

    Most people are members of the state church.

    Thus, morals aren't linked to religion.

    Except if you find that animals can find pleasure in having sex with humans. Then the religious command of "do good" makes sense when you shack a bitch.

    if all these religions are "ONLY ABOUT  SEX WITH ANIMALS" , I don't care about religions,  religious rules and those who follow those rules. And I will not write against them as much I do now.  These religious heroes can make all rules and stand between animals and  foolish human beings who wants/like to have sex with animals..

    I don't give shit about them.. and those who sleep with animals..  

     why??  we have more animals in Human form .. we are 7 billion.. if some nut cases like that you can not help except use psychiatry to help them out..

    But these stupid religions religious rules are more than that and more than whether god/allah whatever is there or not..

    these are old tubes but good to add them here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UisxYorDNr4

     Tariq  RAM .. bull.. baboon..whatever   vs Arif Ahmed: "Do we need God to be Moral?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #39 - July 08, 2014, 07:44 PM

    You know, I just got to thinking, is killing, raping and murdering the only moral issues we should be worried about?

    I recently came into contact with 2 ex muslims in SA and I was honestly surprised by them, now I don't like to judge and I gave them both a fair chance. But from what I have seen they both thrive on being that rebel, drugs and alcohol are a staple part of their lives and they just say what they want to without thinking. They seem to like this 'tough guy' act

    And I got to wondering, just because we have no religion does that mean we strive on being morally loose? NOt watching how we talk to people? I found they both were a bit selfish and ungrounded. I'm not judging their lifestyle and choices, but I am questioning the humanity behind it. Ye sure they won't murder, rape and steal, but what about how you interact with other people? WHat happened to being a good person?

    Personally I have left Islam in MArch, since then I have started drinking (not a lot) and I eat haraam foods, I don't wear a hijaab, but I don't feel the need to go crazy with the open ended life that I now live or to go crazy outside of the rules. I still feel I have a responsibility to conduct myself responsibly.

    Does having no religion mean having no rules? 


    Not necessarily, it means less rules, but not the complete absence of a moral framework.

    Do you know if those ex-muslims behaved in the same way when they were religious, or is it something that was a direct result of their apostasy?

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
     Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
     Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
     Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God." - Epicurus
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #40 - July 08, 2014, 07:47 PM

    No they were that way before, they were not religious people before hand

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #41 - July 08, 2014, 07:55 PM

    Makes sense, although, considering they weren't religious, its probably quite difficult to tell whether or not religion had an effect on them.

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
     Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
     Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
     Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God." - Epicurus
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #42 - July 08, 2014, 08:12 PM

    good point, call me naive I like to think there is good in everyone, sometimess u just have to dig a little deeper in others

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #43 - July 08, 2014, 08:15 PM

    I recently came into contact with 2 ex muslims in SA and I was honestly surprised by them, now I don't like to judge and I gave them both a fair chance. But from what I have seen they both thrive on being that rebel, drugs and alcohol are a staple part of their lives and they just say what they want to without thinking. They seem to like this 'tough guy' act

    There is nothing necessarily immoral about drinking and taking drugs.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #44 - July 08, 2014, 08:16 PM

    good point, call me naive I like to think there is good in everyone, sometimess u just have to dig a little deeper in others

    And there is a bad in every one.. Just have to keep it out.. and my rational skeptic says   "usually Religion makes good people do bad things" .. and there is a reason for tat..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #45 - July 08, 2014, 08:28 PM

    Some rights and wrongs depend on the circumstances.
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #46 - July 08, 2014, 08:32 PM

    Some rights and wrongs depend on the circumstances.

    Nope...  wrong is wrong.. right is right..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #47 - July 08, 2014, 09:02 PM

    Thats a very black and white way of thinking, ^^^^

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #48 - July 08, 2014, 09:13 PM

    ^ Plus technically that is a tautology. Obviously wrong is wrong and right is right…  Wink
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #49 - July 08, 2014, 10:57 PM

    Quote
    Some rights and wrongs depend on the circumstances.

    Nope...  wrong is wrong.. right is right..

     
    Thats a very black and white way of thinking, ^^^^


    well what i said was theoretical.,  O.K. I give a bit of leeway for you two  guys but give me some examples where some rights and wrongs depend on the circumstances  and where  wrong becomes right and right becomes wrong...  

    What circumstances?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #50 - July 09, 2014, 12:48 AM

    Perhaps circumstances do not make an act moral but rather provide justification for immoral actions. Starvation on a global scale in which a significant percentage of the populations would die. Governments or groups restricting the food supply could be done to ensure as many that could be saved are saved. Draconian laws could also be justified in order to avoid the ensuing chaos, protect a limited food supply or whatever population is deemed "worth" saving.
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #51 - July 09, 2014, 10:32 AM

    @confusedagno

    There are Muslims who are obnoxious assholes too. It's more about one's temperament and personality than anything else. Some people are rude and confrontational, others are soft-spoken and diplomatic. I don't think you need religion to teach you manners. Umar ibn al-Khattab was a consummate thug and is a highly revered figure in Islam, compare that to the peacenik nature of Mo in his Mecca days, which is also held up in Islam. Your "friends" are just irresponsible assholes and chose hedonism. Just as you and I can live responsibly and be decent human beings without religion, as can anyone else Smiley 
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #52 - July 09, 2014, 10:33 AM

    And there is a bad in every one.. Just have to keep it out.. and my rational skeptic says   "usually Religion makes good people do bad things" .. and there is a reason for tat..




    Yep, religion definitely has the tendency to make otherwise good people do atrocious things in the name of God.
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #53 - July 09, 2014, 11:24 AM

    well what i said was theoretical.,  O.K. I give a bit of leeway for you two  guys but give me some examples where some rights and wrongs depend on the circumstances  and where  wrong becomes right and right becomes wrong...  

    What circumstances?

    Stealing food to feed your starving family is arguably a moral course of action. Looking the other way and not reporting the theft would also arguably be a moral, upright, noble course of action. There is a kind of justice or fairness that comes with such an act. While theft might be immoral in most circumstances, in instances like this it seems that the world is put right and made slightly better by such an act, if only superficially and momentarily. The gain outweighs the loss. But it's a complicated thing. Stealing from one starving family to feed another might not resonate with us quite as fairly, for example. Though it might still be understandable why someone in such a position would prioritise their own family over another. We can appreciate the dire need that drove the person to act that way. This empathy we feel can have mitigating power over how 'wrong' we judge it to be, perhaps even move us to say it was 'right'.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #54 - July 09, 2014, 11:55 AM

    Stealing food to feed your starving family is arguably a moral course of action. Looking the other way and not reporting the theft would also arguably be a moral, upright, noble course of action.
    There is a kind of justice or fairness that comes with such an act. While theft might be immoral in most circumstances, in instances like this it seems that the world is put right and made slightly better by such an act, if only superficially and momentarily. The gain outweighs the loss. 
    But it's a complicated thing. Stealing from one starving family to feed another might not resonate with us quite as fairly, for example. Though it might still be understandable why someone in such a position would priorities their own family over another.
    We can appreciate the dire need that drove the person to act that way. This empathy we feel can have mitigating power over how 'wrong' we judge it to be, perhaps even move us to say it was 'right'.

    I agree that Moral compass., and behavior of human beings in such   examples as above may appear quite straightforward but I say as you said "it is quite complicated" .,  I would  still argue such stealing may be  OK provided all other avenues were explored by the stealer  to feed  the  family and He/she uses stealing  as last resort.

    This clash of "Have's and Have nots" can only be solved having more and controlling the wealth of rich who become rich by stealing unsuspected poor by the support of the state.

    I wonder what will be the life on the planet when the population doubles to some 15 billion or more.  Anyways I am so glad to read you on this complicated subject Ishina., I guess this absolute morality is irrelevant..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #55 - February 10, 2015, 01:36 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUzExsAJLmI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnHY1cC9a4A

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #56 - February 14, 2015, 05:38 PM

    Quote from: Erik Wielenberg, Value and Virtue in a Godless universe (pages 40-41)

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Value-Virtue-Godless-Universe-Wielenberg/dp/0521607841


    Wielenberg on Craig's interpretation of moral realism

    Some theists who accept the conclusion of God as the source of ethics argument fail to appreciate its consequences fully. William Lane Craig is an example. One of his central themes is how awful it would be if God did not exist... Craig refers to the horror of modern man facing life in a Godless universe.

    But if there can be no good or evil if God does not exist, then there can be no evil if God does not exist. So if God doesn't exist, nothing bad can ever happen to anyone. The conclusion of the God as the source of ethics argument implies that there is nothing good about a Godless universe- but it equally implies that there is nothing bad about it either.

    If this argument is sound, there can be nothing awful or horrible about a Godless universe. The short version of Craig's self-contradictory message is Without God there would be no value in the universe- and think how horrible that would be!


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #57 - February 14, 2015, 05:52 PM

    I guess this absolute morality is irrelevant..


    Objective morality is a better label than "absolute", because the latter can actually imply something that the former doesn't intend to.

    An example would be the notion of "objective" vs "absolute" in mathematics. We regard mathematics as objective, but Godel's Incompleteness poses problems for the absoluteness of mathematics. Ergo, objectivity doesn't imply completeness.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #58 - February 14, 2015, 07:46 PM

    Now that there is no one to judge whether what we do is right or wrong, would it be okay to steal, kill, lie and so on? Will there be no shame or sense of what is right? Will wrong be okay as long as it doesn't harm anyone? Will the law be our only limit? Will evil be okay as long as you don't get caught? Will we abuse our freedom (at least those who have it)?

    I don't think so.

    Do you?



    The "supreme lawgiver" argument can be expounded as:

    If there is no supreme moral authority, then anything goes
    anything does not go
    Therefore, there is a supreme moral authority.

    In logical form:

    p -> q
    ~q
    ~p


    Although this is a valid argument, the problem is with the inference being made. Because there is no ultimate "lawgiver", we apparently cannot construct "laws". This is just wrong. For instance, from a contractarian point of view we can construct a sort of game theoretic social contract. Within this model, we have the assumption of a veil of ignorance, followed by perfect information. The result would be that in the absence of God, we can establish things such as "Don't kill your neighbour for fun".

    There is also a self contradiction within this sort of argument. The apologist claims that God objectifies moral facts such that there are objective "goods" and "evils". On the other hand, he then asserts that without God, "evil" will go unpunished.

    On one hand, he is claiming that "good" and "evil" only make sense within a theistic framework, on the other he is arguing that without a theistic framework, "good" and "evil" will go unrewarded and unpunished. This argument is inconsistent.

    An internal critique would be as follows:

    If God doesn't ground morality, then there is nothing necessarily good or necessarily evil about our actions.

    The arguer fails to notice this.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Morals for Atheists
     Reply #59 - February 14, 2015, 08:16 PM

    I can construct a very basic two player game. The only assumptions being made are that life is better than non-life, and that the players have cognitive faculties that work correctly. The end result is that a "good" outcome is the pure strategy nash equilibria.

    Of course this model can be criticised, but it's just there to highlight that there are alternative moral contracts that we can build from, which don't invoke a theistic appeal.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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