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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi from on the fence muslim

 (Read 119525 times)
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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #30 - January 04, 2011, 09:52 PM

    Everything is Islam Grin


    lol not quite, he was talking about evolution and he thinks that you probably shouldn't believe in it if you are a Muslim. I am just pointing out that there were Muslim scientists who did. Believe me I don't suffer from a superiority complex, otherwise I would be insulting and condescending people on this forum left and right.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #31 - January 04, 2011, 09:57 PM

    Bismillah

    Salam MAS. I can try my best to answer your questions and I do not know if they will be satisfactory for you.
    But the ones who disbelieve in God completely, they will have God's Mercy removed, so therefore they will abide there permanently.

    What about those - like me - who find god completely irrelevant?

    Mind you - this is not the same as to say that I chose atheism since the choice itself is already located within the filed of belief.

    And it might interest you to know that Muslim scientists such as Ibn Khaldun, al Jahiz, Nasir al din al tusi, al Biruni and many more came up with the theory of evolution long before Darwin hopped on the bandwagon.

    Amazing. I really didn't know that. How come the successors of such brilliant minds didn't build upon them and publish "On the Origin of Species" at least a thousand years before it was eventually published? And how come that Muslims are at the forefront of creationism despite having such pioneers of radical Darwinism amongst themselves?

    Many Muslim rulers have been extremely barbaric.

    You should also look at the expansion of the Muslim empire:

    Well at least you are not hiding the deeply imperialist character of Islamic expansion.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #32 - January 04, 2011, 10:26 PM

    I will take the liberty to join the discussion and point out some things that seem either fallacies or philosophical problems

    Bismillah

    Salam MAS. I can try my best to answer your questions and I do not know if they will be satisfactory for you.
    Very briefly I will touch on them, if you require more detail I can do so later.

    1) Concept of hell for eternity does not seem fair. Though one explanation is that it will appear like eternity due to level of suffering. Even then is this fair.

    From my own Islamic understanding and conclusion. Satan when he argued with God against his decision of preferring humans to him, he refused to bow to Adam and became cursed (meaning God removed His Mercy for satan) rather than satan repenting, his own arrogance made him challenge God that he would prove that we are not worthy of that preference and that he could easily turn us away and make us disbelief in Him and show Him ingratitude.
    So God replied that however agrees with Satan will end up with him, which is hell.
    As for an eternity. All the ones who as the hadith says have a "mustard seed of faith" in their hearts will eventually be taken out of hell fire. But the ones who disbelieve in God completely, they will have God's Mercy removed, so therefore they will abide there permanently.

    Also keep in mind, that a person has to be sane to make a decision, and has to have had Islam reach him/her in a convincing way and not in the repulsive way that it is shown today, not only in the media, but by ignorant Muslims who have no manners. People of fitrah (e.g people in the amazon) and the people who have not heard anything about Islam, and even the ones murdered who weren't allowed to live out their full lives, I am more than certain of God's Mercy, that he will take all situations into account, and God knows best.


    - God is omniscient (all knowing)
    - Does this mean that god already knew that Satan(described both as Jinn and Angel in Koran) will challenge him even before he started the whole project of creating the universe?
    - Why would God even accept a challenge from a Jinn/Angel? And why won't he accept a challenge from me. (to kill me instantly while i am writing this letter)
    - According to the Koran, Allah has sent prophets everywhere and everybody was informed for his existence... The Bible and Kuran mention only those sent in the middle east, but claim that every nation had the chance which they lost, so they will burn... this means even people in the Amazonas or Papua New Guinea had prophets.....
    But anyway even your claim that those that had no chance to learn Islam will be spared, puts in question the existence of an almighty god , since he missed many people by sending the last prophet in Saudi Arabia, and by this 3 continents were left totally out, many islands, and most of Asia, Africa and Europe.... Would it have not been cooler to send the last prophet in England or Spain that had colonial ventures all around the world (allah knew they will conquer every part of the world already, since he is omniscient)
     
    Bismillah

    2) Slavery and allowance of intimacy with female slaves

    This was something that was practiced in all places in the pre-modern world. The ones that lost in a war, their families became slaves of their victors. It was all very common in those times and largely accepted, even the Prophet Abraham in the Bible was quoted as having a slave girl. Galatians 4:22 "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman." From my understanding these things no longer apply. And if Muslims apply that today, then they shouldn't complain about the way their women are treated in warfare.
    It is quite a delicate topic that needs alot of expansion, I do not know too much about it, I will wrap it up by quoting what Muhammad (SAW) said "“If any of you have a slave girl, whom he gives good education and excellent training, and then he emancipates her and marries her, he shall have a two-fold reward.”



    Alcohol was practiced in the Arab World as well during that time, but Allah in his infinite wisdom forbid it..... Why did he not bother to stop a social phenomena which is even worse than alcohol?

    3) Why is Quran not structured to be clearly understood without any doubts if it is guidance for all mankind

    It was a revelation that was revealed in a certain time and understood in a certain context. If you wish to understand it, you have to look at every particular verse and why it was revealed and in what context. Most of what came down was a response to questions posed to the Prophet(SAW), or addressing a certain situation, or confirmation of old stories and scriptures to bring converts from among the Christians and Jews and to purify their teachings.
    The Quran is not intended to be read as a story but looked at as a book of lessons. In life you will learn by experience, parables, events, metaphors (if you still don't get the point) and knowledge.
    So it will give you some knowledge of the unseen, tell you stories to draw lessons, and give you metaphors and it will address some questions.
    That is why I hate the approach of people like Zakir Naik and Harun Yahya. I do not agree with trying to use the Quran as a book of scientific Miracles by stretching some verses far out of context, with all due respect to them.
    Although I believe that there is truthful science in the Quran, some I can think of, the speed of light, the barriers between seas and rivers, embryology, the big crunch, the big bang... 


    - Would a book like the Kuran not be a timeless ?? Should we not be able to understand God without having to know the history of Arabia and the problems or situations they were facing?

    An all knowing and all powerful god would surely know that sending his last message in form of poetry in arabic will cause problems for many people... Don't you think there are better ways than it? I mean come on, he is god... He could have just put objects in the sky with all the lesions that we need , in a script or language understandable miraculously by all...

    4) I can not digest the part where Quran mentions that Allah guides who he wants and let others go astray. And did Allah create human so that he can have most of them burn in hell for eternity.

    What is meant is that, the person has to want that guidance, a quote from the Quran says "He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby ONLY MISCREANTS; Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers." 2:26-27
    No person is just doomed, every person has a chance to change their lives around. How many people have you seen who were the worst "sinners" whether they be average people, or celebs, who have turned their lives around completely and became religious.
    Just read up on Malcolm X Smiley
    Refer to the first question. I can expand more, but I am trying to be brief.


    How come many Muslims turn Christian when seeking divine guidance?? Or many Koreans turn Christian?? Or many Europeans turn Budhist?? Isn't Allah supposed to guide those that seek the truth to Islam???

    5) The theory of evolution makes a lot of sense to me. However it does not seem to be compatible with Islam unless we do not take the story of Adam and Eve to be literal.

    I believe in evolution. Adam and Eve (As) were according to some hadiths 90 feet. Some ignorant Muslims have tried to show that the first human was 90 feet and use hoaxes on the internet for their proof, which is cringeworthy. The reason why I mentioned that, is because in Islam, in the afterlife we will have different bodies. Now 90 feet was the height of Adam (AS) in PARADISE and not on earth, because he was removed from paradise and sent down to the lowest heaven along with Eve (As) and satan.
    So in the hadiths it appropriately says that the occupants of hell and paradise will have different bodies, and that the occpuants of paradise will be 90 feet and that the occupants of hell will have skin that keeps healing and extremely wide shoulders to feel excess pain, which sounds terrifying and rather harsh (I admit).
    Now which brings me to my actual point!!! How do we know that after Adam (As) was thrown out of paradise his soul was not placed in the first man that was created out of evolution?
    Can that possibility be ruled out scientifically speaking?

    And it might interest you to know that Muslim scientists such as Ibn Khaldun, al Jahiz, Nasir al din al tusi, al Biruni and many more came up with the theory of evolution long before Darwin hopped on the bandwagon.
    Ibn Khaldun said in his book Muqadimmah "The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends"
    http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/Muqaddimah/Chapter1/Ch_1_06.htm


    This is by far my favorite... First of all there was not " A FIRST HUMAN" that came from the evolutionary process.. This is the problem why most people find it hard to understand evolution, because they do not understand how it works. I like the way how you are trying to rationalize this entire issue but you are failing ...

    Ibn Khaldun surely is not guided by Kuran in his statement, but through OBSERVATION (Empiricism) .... The fact that he was Muslim has as much relevance in here as the color of his robes in the day he died...

    6) Various events like the Nuh's flood as mentioned in Quran appear like fairy tales. Some how I can not digest these miracles now. I did not think about it earlier.

    Even an atheist friend who I work with concedes that a flood did occur of what is talked about in the Bible and Quran, but he doesn't believe the accounts that they give. The Bible says it was worldwide, the Quran says local. People weren't living on other continents at the time due to them not being discovered, so I disagree with the Bible.


    Hahaaahahahahahaaaa... People Lived in Australia earlier than Europe... Are you saying that on Noahs time there were no people in Europe, so there was no need for a global flood???  How come we have no DNA evidence whatsoever that we are all descendants from the middle east, and particularly from 2 people??

    7) There is no ideal muslim society to look up to. What is the use of teachings which are not effective in real life. The political mess started right after death of prophet Muhammad in early years of Islam e.g. War of the camel.

    You'll have to explain what you mean, as for your latter point, it is never going to be perfect after the Prophet (SAW). Yes there were many civil wars that occured and disagreements, but this is a human problem it's never going to go away. I take it that you might be a Shia, because I do not believe that the political mess started right after the death of the Prophet (SAW), so I disagree with that point.
    And you have to look at what the Muslim world achieved, not just the negative parts. Religion is not immune to being hijacked by corruptive rulers. Many Muslim rulers have been extremely barbaric.
    You should also look at the expansion of the Muslim empire:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_empire
    Also read about the al andalus:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
    Read about Muslim scientists:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists


    The Islamic world has not done anything of major importance for a very long time... Most of its achievements came from the heydays till 10-11-th cent, with the most of the achievements being a continuation of roman and greek thought + eastern influences... The Islamic world got well surpassed by Europe at least since the 15-th century....

    I find it very desperate when people are proud of achievements of their ancestors that lived >1000 years ago... It shows the pathetic state of mind they have.

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #33 - January 04, 2011, 10:33 PM

    lol  Kenan, I find your posts quite cute, I don't know if it's because of your avatar.

    I was asked to address this persons doubts and I answered from an Islamic perspective. Whatever you believe in and how you reached that conclusion is for God to judge.

    As for the theory of evolution, if you look at the current Muslim world today, the freedom that was given to scientists and expression is no longer present so those ideas were not allowed to be expanded on, because of narrow mindedness that has taken over the Arab world that deemed it deviant. I don't think the Muslims are at the forefront of creationism, I hope you don't take Harun Yahya that seriously, I am assuming you might be talking about him.
    But you have to understand that the Muslim world is plagued right now with salafi narrow minded interpretations of Islam.

    Btw I was highlighting Islamic conquests to show that Islam brought civilisation to a primitive Arab people. At that time the more advanced conquered the less advanced.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #34 - January 04, 2011, 10:36 PM

    Quote
    Btw I was highlighting Islamic conquests to show that Islam brought civilisation to a primitive Arab people. At that time the more advanced conquered the less advanced.


    Ahh i see... The Germans Conquering Rome were more advanced... The mongols Conquering China, India (the Mughals) and coming as far as Russia were more advanced...


    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #35 - January 04, 2011, 10:39 PM

    At that time the more advanced conquered the less advanced.


    Nonsense.

    fuck you
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #36 - January 04, 2011, 10:54 PM

    lol  Kenan, I find your posts quite cute, I don't know if it's because of your avatar.

    lol Thanks.

    I was asked to address this persons doubts and I answered from an Islamic perspective. Whatever you believe in and how you reached that conclusion is for God to judge.

    Fair enough.

    As for the theory of evolution, if you look at the current Muslim world today, the freedom that was given to scientists and expression is no longer present so those ideas were not allowed to be expanded on, because of narrow mindedness that has taken over the Arab world that deemed it deviant. I don't think the Muslims are at the forefront of creationism, I hope you don't take Harun Yahya that seriously, I am assuming you might be talking about him.

    I don't take Harun Yahya seriously at all. I was more referring to the sad state of intellectual discourse within "muslim community" when it comes to such issues. But you have indirectly provided answer for that already.

    But you have to understand that the Muslim world is plagued right now with salafi narrow minded interpretations of Islam.

    I do understand that but imo it goes deeper than that.

    Btw I was highlighting Islamic conquests to show that Islam brought civilisation to a primitive Arab people. At that time the more advanced conquered the less advanced.

    Sounds a bit too neocon for me tbh.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #37 - January 04, 2011, 11:03 PM

    Quote
    Btw I was highlighting Islamic conquests to show that Islam brought civilisation to a primitive Arab people. At that time the more advanced conquered the less advanced.


    Doesn't that excuse Islamic nations being conquered now?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #38 - January 04, 2011, 11:11 PM

    Nonsense.


    I would tend to agree with this. Islam conquered Persia, Egypt, Mesopotamia, India and parts of Byzantium and all of these regions had highly complex social structures for thousands of years while the arabs were still nomads.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #39 - January 04, 2011, 11:33 PM

    Europeans, the French, the British and the Dutch conquered Arabs and Muslims. It goes without saying that Europeans are more advanced than Arabs and Muslims. Can we say that Europeans brought civilization to Arabs and Muslims?

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #40 - January 04, 2011, 11:40 PM

    So we should look at colonization as bringing civilization to the savages as the old British Empire used to think? 

    Why is colonization seen as terrible and oppressive in one instance but benign and paternal in another? 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #41 - January 04, 2011, 11:44 PM

    Because when Muslims do it they're saving those savages from Hell. It's for the greater good.  parrot

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #42 - January 04, 2011, 11:46 PM

    Quote
    Why is colonization seen as terrible and oppressive in one instance but benign and paternal in another?  

     

    Because Islam always has been an imperial mission, instead of the White Mans Burden, you have the Arab / Muslim Mans Burden, of bringing enlightenment to all the heathens and infidels who exist in a state of backwardness and denial of The Truth (trademark Islam)

    Islam has an inherent supremacist impulse and self-regard. Alot of the rage of Islam involves rage against the world not being ordered to this impulse and self-regard.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #43 - January 04, 2011, 11:54 PM

    First of all I gave brief answers and didn't expand fully.
    Secondly you are using too many irrelevant arguments, you might as well throw every you have at me, even the sink in the kitchen.
    Thirdly, you're understanding of Islam is flawed and you made several mistakes.

    - Does this mean that god already knew that Satan(described both as Jinn and Angel in Koran) will challenge him even before he started the whole project of creating the universe?

    Yes God knows the past present and future.
    He created Adam (as) to be the vicegerant on EARTH, and that role came into place after those took place.
    We were given the choice between right and wrong, and obediance and disobediance. The angels asked before God created Adam (as) and told them His plan to make him a vicegerant and grant Him freewill, as angels have no choice but to obey God. They asked why He would create this creature.


    Quote
    Why would God even accept a challenge from a Jinn/Angel? And why won't he accept a challenge from me. (to kill me instantly while i am writing this letter)


    Islam doesn't say that Satan was an angel. I think you're confused. Because angels don't have freewill. So that's one error.
    And the reason of our purpose here is because of a challenge that was made, we're not here to make challenges.
    As for why would God even accept a challenge from a jinn anyway, because he became the leader of the enemies of God.
    "The Shaitan has gained the mastery over them, so he has made them forget the remembrance of Allah; they are the Shaitan's party; now surely the Shaitan's party are the losers" 58:19

    Quote
    According to the Koran, Allah has sent prophets everywhere and everybody was informed for his existence... The Bible and Kuran mention only those sent in the middle east, but claim that every nation had the chance which they lost, so they will burn... this means even people in the Amazonas or Papua New Guinea had prophets.....


    Islam is an extension of the Semitic religions and it was sent to purify them and confirm them. They all teach the unity of God, although we believe Christianity exagerrates about Jesus and places him on the same level as God which makes it impure.
    Islam says that they have to believe in Muhammad (SAW) as the last Messenger also, and that every person must know about him as he is the universal Prophet. If a person does not hear about him then they cannot be expected to make a decision.
    As for the Prophets who were sent the Islamic understanding is that they preached to their people, and if their people after seeing signs did not accept, then God would punish them instantly after all efforts were exhausted.
    So the future generations wouldn't be to blame for they weren't around.

    Quote
    But anyway even your claim that those that had no chance to learn Islam will be spared, puts in question the existence of an almighty god , since he missed many people by sending the last prophet in Saudi Arabia, and by this 3 continents were left totally out, many islands, and most of Asia, Africa and Europe.... Would it have not been cooler to send the last prophet in England or Spain that had colonial ventures all around the world (allah knew they will conquer every part of the world already, since he is omniscient)


    lol I was talking about Islam being a semitic religion leading on from Judaism and Christianity. Britain isn't semitic and in Islam it says that God sent Moses, Jesus and Muhammad because of a prayer he made for Ishmael and Issac for God to send them a Messenger to teach them.
    If you want to ask such pedantic questions, I can't aggregate to you what God intended and why he done this and that.

    Quote
    Alcohol was practiced in the Arab World as well during that time, but Allah in his infinite wisdom forbid it..... Why did he not bother to stop a social phenomena which is even worse than alcohol?


    Again you ask me to tell you why God did everything, as if I have to tell you what he thought.
    You should see how much alcohol related crime costs the government here in the UK.

    Quote
    - Would a book like the Kuran not be a timeless ?? Should we not be able to understand God without having to know the history of Arabia and the problems or situations they were facing?

    An all knowing and all powerful god would surely know that sending his last message in form of poetry in arabic will cause problems for many people... Don't you think there are better ways than it? I mean come on, he is god... He could have just put objects in the sky with all the lesions that we need , in a script or language understandable miraculously by all...


    Because I believe that the Quran is like I mentioned before a book of lessons and events and metaphors. You can either listen to a scholars inpretation if you don't want to know the history behind it. I was basically saying that it is understood in context, I think you completely missed my point.
    And your last point is just absurd, it's more like whining than making a valid point.

    Quote
    How come many Muslims turn Christian when seeking divine guidance?? Or many Koreans turn Christian?? Or many Europeans turn Budhist?? Isn't Allah supposed to guide those that seek the truth to Islam???


    lol for real? Are you a born again christian? So there aren't people from other faiths who convert to Islam also?
    I think people change religions all the time and choose whatever path suits them according to their experience and understanding. It's called freewill, and I don't know how they came to their conclusions, but I am sure God will take it all into account.

    Quote
    This is by far my favorite... First of all there was not " A FIRST HUMAN" that came from the evolutionary process.. This is the problem why most people find it hard to understand evolution, because they do not understand how it works. I like the way how you are trying to rationalize this entire issue but you are failing ...


    lol ok I agree that was an error on my part, I was just quickly rushing through, and whatever your opinion is, my opinion is that it does not contradict that God could have placed the souls of Adam and eve at any time during the process of evolution.

    Quote
    Ibn Khaldun surely is not guided by Kuran in his statement, but through OBSERVATION (Empiricism) .... The fact that he was Muslim has as much relevance in here as the color of his robes in the day he died...


    Well, he was also an Islamic theologan and saw no problem in believing in evolution.

    Quote
    Hahaaahahahahahaaaa... People Lived in Australia earlier than Europe... Are you saying that on Noahs time there were no people in Europe, so there was no need for a global flood???  How come we have no DNA evidence whatsoever that we are all descendants from the middle east, and particularly from 2 people??


    No what I meant was that the flood was local. And it was sent on the people he preached to. Not all of humanity! I was just disputing the ridiculousness of the Bible which says that there was a global flood.
    So understand my point before you laugh.

    Quote
    The Islamic world has not done anything of major importance for a very long time... Most of its achievements came from the heydays till 10-11-th cent, with the most of the achievements being a continuation of roman and greek thought + eastern influences... The Islamic world got well surpassed by Europe at least since the 15-th century....
    I find it very desperate when people are proud of achievements of their ancestors that lived >1000 years ago... It shows the pathetic state of mind they have.


    Again you didn't see what I was getting at. Yes in it's heydays it achieved alot, but what I am getting at is, the more they started adopting a different attitude and not allowing free thinking, thats when they became stagnant. I am telling the person who started this thread that said that there wasn't an ideal muslim society to look up too!

    Please don't jump in if you don't understand what I am replying to.
    I wanted to write an introduction, but I don't think I will be for some time. I wasted all this time replying to your silly ass irrelevant pedantic points.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #44 - January 04, 2011, 11:56 PM

    Nonsense.


    So you are trying to tell me a country more militarily stronger than another, will not be more capable of conquering it?
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #45 - January 04, 2011, 11:57 PM

    Europeans, the French, the British and the Dutch conquered Arabs and Muslims. It goes without saying that Europeans are more advanced than Arabs and Muslims. Can we say that Europeans brought civilization to Arabs and Muslims?


    Well they brought their own civilisation and imposed it on them. Arabs already had a civilisation.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #46 - January 05, 2011, 12:00 AM

    I would tend to agree with this. Islam conquered Persia, Egypt, Mesopotamia, India and parts of Byzantium and all of these regions had highly complex social structures for thousands of years while the arabs were still nomads.


    Well before Islam they consisted of tribes. Islam brought them a state.

    Doesn't that excuse Islamic nations being conquered now?


    No, I am saying that colonisation was a fact of life in the pre-modern world. If a country wasn't strong enough it would have been conquered. Now as the world is no longer running on that basis, it's not right for one country to conquer the other and none of them threaten each others existence.
    Unless they did, then war would be justified.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #47 - January 05, 2011, 12:02 AM

    Well they brought their own civilisation and imposed it on them. Arabs already had a civilisation.


    The people that the Arabs brutally conquered already had sophisticated civilisations.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #48 - January 05, 2011, 12:03 AM


    Oh what a tangled web we weave....

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #49 - January 05, 2011, 12:06 AM

    So you are trying to tell me a country more militarily stronger than another, will not be more capable of conquering it?


    No I'm not. What I'm trying to tell you is that military superiority does not necessarily mean a more advanced society, especially in ancient times. Bardhi already gave you some examples of less advanced societies conquering more advanced societies:

    Ahh i see... The Germans Conquering Rome were more advanced... The mongols Conquering China, India (the Mughals) and coming as far as Russia were more advanced...


    fuck you
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #50 - January 05, 2011, 12:09 AM

    Give AbaAbdillah some credit for the conversation

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #51 - January 05, 2011, 12:12 AM

    The guy writes well but he is trying way too hard to plug the holes. AbaAbdillah, it sounds like you have solved your problems with Islam by coming up with one convoluted argument after another - unfortunately what helped you swallow the pill is not what most Muslims believe. Adam having a 90-foot tall body in heaven then being thrown into the body of an evolved human? C'mon mate!

    You sound like an intelligent and genuinely nice guy though. And I've done all the Islamic debating stuff before so I'll just sit back and enjoy. Smiley

    And to MA5, welcome! As Hassan said, sitting on the fence burns the bum, but we've all been there so feel your (chafing) pain!  Tongue
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #52 - January 05, 2011, 01:00 AM

    Well before Islam they consisted of tribes. Islam brought them a state.



    Are you saying that India, Egypt, Persia et al existed as tribes and not states?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #53 - January 05, 2011, 01:26 AM

    Welcome MAS!  Glad you came here.  In regards to you saying

    "Apart from the few doubts I have including the ones above, the rest of the teachings mostly appeal to me like not drinking alcohol, dressing decently, &#160;caring for parents, orphans etc"

    I am an apostate.  I don't drink, I still dress modestly, I cared for my father and
    was with him when he died, and I have ALWAYS derived joy in working with orphans
    and orphanages.  I don't worship the devil, am NOT possessed by a jinn (LOL) 
    I only swear when I am REALLY pissed off, and live a fairly conservative life.

    While a muslim, I remember reading a news article (that I cannot find again to save
    my life) that said mulsim on muslim hate crimes, murder, genocide, etc were higher
    than any other statistics in those regards.  MUSLIMS HATING AND KILLING OTHER
    MUSLIMS!  I brought this article up on a muslim forum, and was chastised because
    I might scare potential converts away.  But I continued to ponder these thoughts, and
    that article, and all the hype about "ummah" got flushed down the toilet. 



    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #54 - January 05, 2011, 01:36 AM

     
    While a muslim, I remember reading a news article (that I cannot find again to save
    my life) that said mulsim on muslim hate crimes, murder, genocide, etc were higher
    than any other statistics in those regards.  MUSLIMS HATING AND KILLING OTHER
    MUSLIMS!  I brought this article up on a muslim forum, and was chastised because
    I might scare potential converts away.  But I continued to ponder these thoughts, and
    that article, and all the hype about "ummah" got flushed down the toilet. 





    Deservedly so! Indeed "Truth is stranger than fiction"



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #55 - January 05, 2011, 02:55 AM

    Hey Mr. AbaAbdillah, please answer following questions:

    1.  Why is Allah hypocrite that in 2:30, he tells angels that he is creating Adam for earth, and in 2:36 he tells that he is expelling Adam from heaven and sending him to earth as a punishment? (even though he created him for earth at first place)

    2.  Why Allah wrote quran in such a way that it looks like it is written by an autistic person? (Seriously, I met autistic people in my real life and this is exactly how they behave) Repeating sentences again and again, jumping from one topic to another abruptly. These are signs of autistic people. Normal people don't do that. Highly qualified people are much better then that. Allah should be atleast trillion times better then most highly qualified people among the human beings when constructing sentences. (Trillion is just the biggest number I can think of. Allah should infact be infinite times better then that)

    3.  Why Allah thinks in 18:86 that sun actually sets in muddy water? Is that because he thinks earth is flat and sun actually sets in muddy water? He in fact mentioned that Zulqarnain not only witnessed that spot but also found people around it.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #56 - January 05, 2011, 03:12 AM

    relax kiddo.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #57 - January 05, 2011, 03:51 AM

    Welcome! I know it's a confusing time and you want something to hold your hat on regarding what to believe. Take a look at this regarding errors in the Quran. I think it will give you some perspective.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/9451289/Flaws-and-Errors-in-Quran

    As for Islam containing some tenets that you appreciate, well, I'm sure you could find the same in ANY religion or ideology. It doesn't take a prophet of God to figure out things like alcohol and premarital sex have their downsides.

    I'm so glad that you found this site! I wish I had when I was struggling with my faith, but I only found it after I finally made it safely to the side of reason. So enjoy your good fortune that you have found a place where people will accept you and your teetertottering on the fence! We've been there and will do our best to support your search for answers. Smiley

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #58 - January 05, 2011, 03:59 AM

    I realized long time back that if Hadith Collection is true source of Islam then Islam itself can not be True. 



    And yet you cannot make a similar claim about the Quran itself? Why is that?

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #59 - January 05, 2011, 04:13 AM

    Thanks AbaAbdillah for trying to answer my questions and I feel that you are honest in doing so.


    1) Concept of hell for eternity does not seem fair. Though one explanation is that it will appear like eternity due to level of suffering. Even then is this fair.

    From my own Islamic understanding and conclusion. Satan when he argued with God against his decision of preferring humans to him, he refused to bow to Adam and became cursed (meaning God removed His Mercy for satan) rather than satan repenting, his own arrogance made him challenge God that he would prove that we are not worthy of that preference and that he could easily turn us away and make us disbelief in Him and show Him ingratitude.
    So God replied that whoever agrees with Satan will end up with him, i.e in hell.
    As for an eternity. All the ones who as the hadith says have a "mustard seed of faith" in their hearts will eventually be taken out of hell fire. But the ones who disbelieve in God completely, they will have God's Mercy removed, so therefore they will abide there permanently.

    Also keep in mind, that a person has to be sane to make a decision, and has to have had Islam reach him/her in a convincing way and not in the repulsive way that it is shown today, not only in the media, but by ignorant Muslims who have no manners. People of fitrah (e.g people in the amazon) and the people who have not heard anything about Islam, and even the ones murdered who weren't allowed to live out their full lives, I am more than certain of God's Mercy, that he will take all situations into account, and God knows best.




    From Quran 2:30:
    Quote
    And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."


    The angels said this before Satan rebelled against God. This can mean two things:
    1) God made man to commit sins (causes corruption therein and sheds blood) even without Satan misguiding them

    2) Even angels knew before hand that Satan will rebel and will cause many humans to suffer hell fire for eternity. Further why would God create Satan knowing that this creature will rebel against its own creator. &#160;

    So God created Satan to misguide people in to hell fire and then sent vague guidance  to SOME of the humans in a limited area to save them. Apparently God gave Satan more advantage in achieving his objectives.


     
    2) Slavery and allowance of intimacy with female slaves

    This was something that was practiced in all places in the pre-modern world. The ones that lost in a war, their families became slaves of their victors. It was all very common in those times and largely accepted, even the Prophet Abraham in the Bible was quoted as having a slave girl. Galatians 4:22 "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman." From my understanding these things no longer apply. And if Muslims apply that today, then they shouldn't complain about the way their women are treated in warfare.
    It is quite a delicate topic that needs alot of expansion, I do not know too much about it, I will wrap it up by quoting what Muhammad (SAW) said "&#8220;If any of you have a slave girl, whom he gives good education and excellent training, and then he emancipates her and marries her, he shall have a two-fold reward.&#8221;

    There are many counter arguments to this like there were many other things common too but were abolished by Islam.
    However I would just like to ask one thing. Suppose Islamic government the way it should be is established in modern time. Then there is a war between muslims and non muslims. &#160;Muslims capture female soldiers who are non-muslim.
    They are distributed as booty to muslim soldiers such that each soldier gets 3 each Wink.
    The muslim soldiers have sex with these captives as it is allowed by Quran. Even consider for some odd reason these women also agreed to do so though they were married.

    Now in this situation considering it is say 2015, will you say the Muslims soldiers had the right to have sexual relationship with three different women without marrying them? Remember you can not make unlawful for yourself what God has made lawful for you.
    3) Why is Quran not structured to be clearly understood without any doubts if it is guidance for all mankind

    It was a revelation that was revealed in a certain time and understood in a certain context. If you wish to understand it, you have to look at every particular verse and why it was revealed and in what context. Most of what came down was a response to questions posed to the Prophet(SAW), or addressing a certain situation, or confirmation of old stories and scriptures to bring converts from among the Christians and Jews and to purify their teachings.
    The Quran is not intended to be read as a story but looked at as a book of lessons. In life you will learn by experience, parables, events, metaphors (if you still don't get the point) and knowledge.
    So it will give you some knowledge of the unseen, tell you stories to draw lessons, and give you metaphors and it will address some questions.
    That is why I hate the approach of people like Zakir Naik and Harun Yahya. I do not agree with trying to use the Quran as a book of scientific Miracles by stretching some verses far out of context, with all due respect to them.
    Although I believe that there is truthful science in the Quran, some I can think of, the speed of light, the barriers between seas and rivers, embryology, the big crunch, the big bang... &#160;

    Agree that Quran is intended to be a book of guidance. And it also claims to be clear guidance for all humanity and time.
    Is it structured or written to fulfill these two objectives as effectively as divinely possible?

    If you prove to me that it is to be understood in the light of hadith only, then this will mean (to me) that Quran is not authentic as I do not trust hadith anyways. I am saying this because you mentioned time and context. And from typical understanding of muslims time and context comes from hadith. So in this case I will need to trust hadith collection to understand Quran. If I trust sahih hadith collection to be authentic then it means end of Islam (for me) because many hadith cast shadow of serious doubts on the personality of prophet and other companions.


     
    4) I can not digest the part where Quran mentions that Allah guides who he wants and let others go astray. And did Allah create human so that he can have most of them burn in hell for eternity.

    What is meant is that, the person has to want that guidance, a quote from the Quran says "He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby ONLY MISCREANTS; Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers." 2:26-27
    No person is just doomed, every person has a chance to change their lives around. How many people have you seen who were the worst "sinners" whether they be average people, or celebs, who have turned their lives around completely and became religious.
    Just read up on Malcolm X Smiley
    Refer to the first question. I can expand more, but I am trying to be brief.

    Who will not want guidance? Can a sane person who thinks there might be God say that he/she does not want guidance?



    5) The theory of evolution makes a lot of sense to me. However it does not seem to be compatible with Islam unless we do not take the story of Adam and Eve to be literal.

    I believe in evolution. Adam and Eve (As) were according to some hadiths 90 feet. Some ignorant Muslims have tried to show that the first human was 90 feet and use hoaxes on the internet for their proof, which is cringeworthy. The reason why I mentioned that, is because in Islam, in the afterlife we will have different bodies. Now 90 feet was the height of Adam (AS) in PARADISE and not on earth, because he was removed from paradise and sent down to the lowest heaven along with Eve (As) and satan.
    So in the hadiths it appropriately says that the occupants of hell and paradise will have different bodies, and that the occpuants of paradise will be 90 feet and that the occupants of hell will have skin that keeps healing and extremely wide shoulders to feel excess pain, which sounds terrifying and rather harsh (I admit).
    Now which brings me to my actual point!!! How do we know that after Adam (As) was thrown out of paradise his soul was not placed in the first man that was created out of evolution?
    Can that possibility be ruled out scientifically speaking?

    And it might interest you to know that Muslim scientists such as Ibn Khaldun, al Jahiz, Nasir al din al tusi, al Biruni and many more came up with the theory of evolution long before Darwin hopped on the bandwagon.
    Ibn Khaldun said in his book Muqadimmah "The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends"
    http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/Muqaddimah/Chapter1/Ch_1_06.htm


    There is in fact reverse evolution in Quran too. God turned Jews in to monkeys. What do you say?Smiley
    On a serious note if a book mentions turning Humans in to monkeys then do you seriously think it is fair to associate evolution with Adam & Eve story? &#160;Without having any reference to evolution in Quran.

    I do like your explanation though. &#160;


    6) Various events like the Nuh's flood as mentioned in Quran appear like fairy tales. Some how I can not digest these miracles now. I did not think about it earlier.

    Even an atheist friend who I work with concedes that a flood did occur of what is talked about in the Bible and Quran, but he doesn't believe the accounts that they give. The Bible says it was worldwide, the Quran says local. People weren't living on other continents at the time due to them not being discovered, so I disagree with the Bible.

    If it was a local flood then why did Nuh bother to make the boat. He could have moved to safer grounds with all of his followers and animals etc


    7) There is no ideal muslim society to look up to. What is the use of teachings which are not effective in real life. The political mess started right after death of prophet Muhammad in early years of Islam e.g. War of the camel.

    You'll have to explain what you mean, as for your latter point, it is never going to be perfect after the Prophet (SAW). Yes there were many civil wars that occured and disagreements, but this is a human problem it's never going to go away. I take it that you might be a Shia, because I do not believe that the political mess started right after the death of the Prophet (SAW), so I disagree with that point.
    And you have to look at what the Muslim world achieved, not just the negative parts. Religion is not immune to being hijacked by corruptive rulers. Many Muslim rulers have been extremely barbaric.
    You should also look at the expansion of the Muslim empire:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_empire
    Also read about the al andalus:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
    Read about Muslim scientists:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists

    I agree that there are alot of problems right now in the Muslim world and have been so for a very long time, but you should also look at what good has come out of Muslim civilisation, otherwise you're not being objective. And bottom line is human beings are always going to have flaws.

    I was never a Shia. I was born in non-Shia muslim family. However my family never associated with any sect.

    Anyways what about the war of Camel? Did it not happen between Ali and Aisha? They were two of the closest people to Prophet and must have understood his teachings better than many other. &#160;

    Secondly suppose if you need to get 4 out of 10 questions right to pass. You only score 3 right answers. Your status is failed even though you did give some right answers. &#160;So even if there are few positives over 1500 years does not mean much. &#160;Is there any overall successful example of Muslims following Islam?
    BTW I do not know...may be Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey? Does any one know if they can be considered good example of Muslim society.

    Another point is that if God wanted to propagate &#160;Islam and convince non-muslims, an ideal muslim society would have been much more effective than a book claiming to be perfect without any living example of its divine guidance in effect socially.
     
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